Knights radiant and spren

[Pinpoint]

So here are two odd things about Szeth.

 

1. he doesn't have a bond to a spren possibly because of a connection with odium

2. He is a truthless

 

Now, we have no Idea what a truthless is but I think that these two oddities might be connected.  The Shin seem to try to be just as anti Odium as the Parshendi are worshipful of him. I think that maybe they somehow realized that he wasn't bonded to a spren and thus saw his powers as fake and false. So they called him a truthless.

 

Could there be two kinds of every order or Knight radiant. There are the versions that are bonded to Spren, ( this seems to be controlled by the night watcher, probably Cultivation. But I think that Odium has a counterpart to these. I think it is a lot like how hemalurgy was fueled by Ruin and normal genetic allomancy was fueled by preservation. I think that there are different ways to receive radiant powers but if you receive those powers through Odium he gains influence over you.

 

I also have some questions 

 

Spren can be killed. So what happens to a Radiants powers if the spren is killed during the bond? I assume it is the same as what happens to the spren when the human dies. But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe that is how Szeth has powers with no spren though I highly doubt it. 

 

I also have a terrible theory that I hate very much. I do not believe that this theory is correct whatsoever.

Syl will die

 

Evidence supporting

1. Spren can die

2. there are ways to retain you Radiant powers without a spren (so Kaladin could keep his powers. making it more plausible)

3.Brandon loves torturing his readers, giving lots of surprises, and he loves killing main characters.

 

Evidence against 

all the 17th sharders would be so sad that we would all change our names to Syl for an entire year and change our profile pictures to match. This would cause immense chaos confusion because everyone would be the same. the 17 shard would crash and Sanderson would lose his best fan-site.

 

I think it is more likely that Brandon will kill Wyndle 

 

[The Rooster]

This just makes me sad.  Lets not talk about Syl dying , OK eveyone?  Aggreed?  +1 for causing emotions with your words.

[Kurkistan]

So here are two odd things about Szeth.

 

1. he doesn't have a bond to a spren possibly because of a connection with odium

2. He is a truthless

 

We don't know 1. We don't even have any hints pointing us at it, that I know of.

 

Now, we have no Idea what a truthless is but I think that these two oddities might be connected.  The Shin seem to try to be just as anti Odium as the Parshendi are worshipful of him. I think that maybe they somehow realized that he wasn't bonded to a spren and thus saw his powers as fake and false. So they called him a truthless.

 

Could there be two kinds of every order or Knight radiant. There are the versions that are bonded to Spren, ( this seems to be controlled by the night watcher, probably Cultivation. But I think that Odium has a counterpart to these. I think it is a lot like how hemalurgy was fueled by Ruin and normal genetic allomancy was fueled by preservation. I think that there are different ways to receive radiant powers but if you receive those powers through Odium he gains influence over you.

 

I seriously doubt that Cultivation/NW controls all bonding. Brandon describes Syl as "drawn" to Kaladin, not sent. And even Wyndle is sent by an organization that seems quite distinct from Cultivation.

 

I also have some questions 

 

Spren can be killed. So what happens to a Radiants powers if the spren is killed during the bond? I assume it is the same as what happens to the spren when the human dies. But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe that is how Szeth has powers with no spren though I highly doubt it. 

 

I also have a terrible theory that I hate very much. I do not believe that this theory is correct whatsoever.

Syl will die

 

Evidence supporting

1. Spren can die

2. there are ways to retain you Radiant powers without a spren (so Kaladin could keep his powers. making it more plausible)

3.Brandon loves torturing his readers, giving lots of surprises, and he loves killing main characters.

 

Evidence against 

all the 17th sharders would be so sad that we would all change our names to Syl for an entire year and change our profile pictures to match. This would cause immense chaos confusion because everyone would be the same. the 17 shard would crash and Sanderson would lose his best fan-site.

 

I think it is more likely that Brandon will kill Wyndle

 

[Bloodfalcon]

 

I seriously doubt that Cultivation/NW controls all bonding. Brandon describes Syl as "drawn" to Kaladin, not sent. And even Wyndle is sent by an organization that seems quite distinct from Cultivation.

Seriously doubt?  Wyndle kind of goes on and on about "Mother" or whatever he calls her. The most straightforward explanation of the Ring seemed to me to be a group established by Cultivation for that purpose. We also know that Syl's memory is busted with no confirmation of why (IIRC there is a WoB about her being an oddity for that reason?), so she may actually have been sent and then had a mishap. 

Side note: It would be pretty cool if Syl was sent to be the Honorspren of the Shardbearer that Kaladin encounters (or someone else considering there were signs of her before that moment) but forgot and was drawn to Kaladin based on his actions. Not saying it is likely, but another cool idea that would make their bond seem more special. 

[Kurkistan]

Seriously doubt?  Wyndle kind of goes on and on about "Mother" or whatever he calls her. The most straightforward explanation of the Ring seemed to me to be a group established by Cultivation for that purpose. We also know that Syl's memory is busted with no confirmation of why (IIRC there is a WoB about her being an oddity for that reason?), so she may actually have been sent and then had a mishap. 

Side note: It would be pretty cool if Syl was sent to be the Honorspren of the Shardbearer that Kaladin encounters (or someone else considering there were signs of her before that moment) but forgot and was drawn to Kaladin based on his actions. Not saying it is likely, but another cool idea that would make their bond seem more special. 

 

Doubt enough that it shouldn't be bandied about as confidently as "seems to be", at the very least.

 

The easiest reading of how the Ring is discussed is that it's an organization of spren. It's also clear that they do not directly represent or communicate with Cultivation:

 

Lift Interlude:

 

“You realize that I didn’t choose you,” he said, a face appearing in the vines as they moved. His speaking left a strange effect, the trail behind him clotted with a sequence of frozen faces. The mouth seemed to move because it was growing so quickly beside her. “I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. ‘She has visited the Old Magic,’ they said. ‘Our mother has blessed her,’ they said. ‘She will be young, and we can mold her,’ they said. Well they don’t have to put up with—”

 

It's also rather clear from the reading (combined with what we know of how Syl works) that Wyndle was sent to bond with her, rather than bonded with her, then sent. Either way, it's not a case of Cultivation controlling bonding, not even in a second-hand manner. The most charitable interpretation of what we know results in Cultivation having set up a group of spren to control bonding, which is once again undermined by how Syl worked.

 

There's also "the precautions [Wyndle's] people took” to consider: he retained a lot of stuff in the transition, while Syl was reduced to a wisp of a thing without memory or much of her personality. If all spren were sent out by the Ring, then she should have been far better off.

 

Once again: I did not say that it's impossible that Cultivation has a hand in how bonding works, but that I "seriously doubt" it. I will stand by that.

 

There's also this quote:

 

Source:

RICK

1.Are there any other sentient spren like Syl, if not are there any Spren capable of becoming sentient or is she purposefully unique?

 

2.If so, what are the conditions that must be met for a spren to become sentient?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ok Cool.

 

1. There are other sentient spren.

 

2. There are many more who could become sentient, there were choices that were made that we will get into that were made by some spren that, that involved-

 

There were certain choices that were made that influenced this, so yes, that was a very detailed and specific question, you did a good job and so I will give you your answer that there are others like Syl that could become and there are some that are sentient already

 

 

This rather strongly suggests that Syl and others have been non-sentient for some time, as opposed to chilling about in the Cognitive getting bonding-orders from the Ring.

[Pinpoint]

 look at this 

 

 

Wyndle moved along beside Lift. “Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone...”

I am guessing that He Is Honor the almighty

 

I think that Cultivation influences some of the bonding. She wouldn't be able to control the spren that become non sentient because they wouldn't remember a thing. However, she might be able to influence who they are drawn to. Syl seems to have no recollection of the Nightwatcher or Cultivation. I think that the spren that do retain memories are loyal to the Nightwatcher like a child to the mother. They would want to follow her wishes. The ring noticed that Lift had her blessing and so they decided to send Wyndle to her. It is possible that this is a situation a lot like the Kandra. Many hadn't ever seen the first generation. The ring might be just as much at a loss about what their Mother wants. 

 

 

 

Spren are a type of magical entity that live on the planet Roshar. Most are a combination of the powers of the Shards Honor and Cultivation. Some are more of Honor; others, Cultivation; the rest are a mixture of the two

Here is another thought, though, we may already know this. Maybe the only spren that can bond are the mixture of both. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by Pinpoint

[Bloodfalcon]

Doubt enough that it shouldn't be bandied about as confidently as "seems to be", at the very least.

 

The easiest reading of how the Ring is discussed is that it's an organization of spren. It's also clear that they do not directly represent or communicate with Cultivation:

 

Lift Interlude:

 

It's also rather clear from the reading (combined with what we know of how Syl works) that Wyndle was sent to bond with her, rather than bonded with her, then sent. Either way, it's not a case of Cultivation controlling bonding, not even in a second-hand manner. The most charitable interpretation of what we know results in Cultivation having set up a group of spren to control bonding, which is once again undermined by how Syl worked.

 

There's also "the precautions [Wyndle's] people took” to consider: he retained a lot of stuff in the transition, while Syl was reduced to a wisp of a thing without memory or much of her personality. If all spren were sent out by the Ring, then she should have been far better off.

 

Once again: I did not say that it's impossible that Cultivation has a hand in how bonding works, but that I "seriously doubt" it. I will stand by that.

 

There's also this quote:

 

Source:

 

 

This rather strongly suggests that Syl and others have been non-sentient for some time, as opposed to chilling about in the Cognitive getting bonding-orders from the Ring.

Kurk, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your ability to link sources. I don't lean the same way on this one, but man, there are a few users on here who are motivated in all the right ways. Thank you. 

[Kurkistan]

Thanks. *There's no "moderately embarrassed but appreciative" smiley*

 

Though those two in particular were rather easy. Just the Lift interlude and a quick Theoryland search for "Syl", respectively.

[lookingglass]

What if Syl is not from Cultivation? If she is from Honor (Note "honorspren") maybe she didn't retain her memory because he was shattered?

[Bloodfalcon]

What if Syl is not from Cultivation? If she is from Honor (Note "honorspren") maybe she didn't retain her memory because he was shattered?

Yeah, that is possible. People seem to put a lot of stock into that name though. Painspren don't come from the Shard Pain, though. It's typically a system where attraction is what causes the name. I think the same thing when I see people write "Cultivationspren". Maybe there is a spren that is attracted to someone cultivating in a way, but the names have not had anything to do with that before. 

[The Rooster]

Yeah, that is possible. People seem to put a lot of stock into that name though. Painspren don't come from the Shard Pain, though. It's typically a system where attraction is what causes the name. I think the same thing when I see people write "Cultivationspren". Maybe there is a spren that is attracted to someone cultivating in a way, but the names have not had anything to do with that before. 

 

The cultivation thing would help explain why Wyndle thought a master gardener was a more suitable bond candidate.

[Gloom]

Wyndle moved along beside Lift. “Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone...”

 

I'm not sure we read the same interlude.

 

From what I read Wyndle is certainly closely aligned with Cultivation, but I don't see any evidence that he has direct contact, or even that the Ring, has direct contact with her. Wyndle can feel it, his instincts, his fibrous little gut tells him so, not Cultivation. If Wyndle was in communication with Cultivation prior to being sent to Lift, it stands to reason that he would been fertilized with the information about what Cultivation had done to Lift. This is not the case. Instead, Wyndle has been transplanted into a hostile environment with a bondmate that is completely different than what he had expected both in personality and capability.

[Chlehrma]

Insane unjustified theory time!

1. Szeth does not have a nahel bond, but has surge binding abilities.

2. Szeth's gravity abiltities match those of a Windrunner

3. Szeth is not a Windrunner, so Szeth must be a sky breaker.

4. Assuming heralds do not have a nahel bond, then the possibility exists that Szeth is a herald...Nalan in specific. He even looks like the bald shin-like guy in the picture.

But Szeth is a son, son, etc. ...Memory wipe+Implanted memories!

Told you it was insane.

[LairdDuncan]

Well, as long as we're doing insane unjustified theories, here's mine!

 

1. Brandon is lying to us about Szeth not having a spren, or is at least deceiving us.

2. The type of spren is unimportant to what Order you are in (e.g., we assume Syl is a windspren for most of the book, which would make sense since Kaladin is a Windrunner, but then we find out she's not a windspren at all).

3. It's true that we will never see Szeth with a spren, which is why Brandon feels it's okay to deceive us, because he's bonded with... a deathspren, and even Szeth doesn't realize it!

 

Whose is more insane?

[Bloodfalcon]

Well, as long as we're doing insane unjustified theories, here's mine!

 

1. Brandon is lying to us about Szeth not having a spren, or is at least deceiving us.

2. The type of spren is unimportant to what Order you are in (e.g., we assume Syl is a windspren for most of the book, which would make sense since Kaladin is a Windrunner, but then we find out she's not a windspren at all).

3. It's true that we will never see Szeth with a spren, which is why Brandon feels it's okay to deceive us, because he's bonded with... a deathspren, and even Szeth doesn't realize it!

 

Whose is more insane?

Eh, I think number 2 is based on a bit of a misconception. Syl is a windspren, by my memory. She is also an Honorspren. There were a couple Brandon interview questions I just read about Syl where specifically says she is. I'll do my best to find them again, but I did a lot of searching a few days ago...

EDIT: Couldn't find the one where Brandon himself says windspren, but there is this cryptic exchange...

 

QUESTION

And she's what, a Bonding Spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You will find out. She [says she's] an Honorspren, but you will find out.

ZAS

Is that bond the Nahel bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Nervous grin on Brandon's face] [laughter] There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.

QUESTION

Because she's windspren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's part of it. That's part of something else.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Bloodfalcon

[WeiryWriter]

Syl is not a windspren, she is an honorspren.  Brandon has said that they are related/cousins but they are separate things.

[Bloodfalcon]

Syl is not a windspren, she is an honorspren.  Brandon has said that they are related/cousins but they are separate things.

Thank you. I'll have to put more effort into finding that quote. That answer is confusing though. Do all honorspren look exactly like windspren? Windspren seem to be a fairly common thing, so either Kaladin is a bit of an idiot, or she is an honorpren that looks like a windspren. 

[marianmi]

Well... Syl can be honorspren as in attracted to the honorable attribute, or can be Honorspren as in a splinter of Honor, or both.

Honorspren - splinters of Honor - can be multiple types of spren (there are indications from Brandon that there are many spren with different ...degrees... of Honor power in them) - so she can be of windspren type. However, I don't think that. I prefer to think of her as Honorspren honorspren

[Bloodfalcon]

Well... Syl can be honorspren as in attracted to the honorable attribute, or can be Honorspren as in a splinter of Honor, or both.

Honorspren - splinters of Honor - can be multiple types of spren (there are indications from Brandon that there are many spren with different ...degrees... of Honor power in them) - so she can be of windspren type. However, I don't think that. I prefer to think of her as Honorspren honorspren

You are going with the "Kaladin is an idiot" theory or the "honorspren and windspren are identical" theory?

[marianmi]

You are going with the "Kaladin is an idiot" theory or the "honorspren and windspren are identical" theory?

 

I prefer to think of her as Honorspren honorspren

 

honorspren, not windspren. And Honorspren, not Cultivationspren.

Double Honorspren.

[Bloodfalcon]

honorspren, not windspren. And Honorspren, not Cultivationspren.

Double Honorspren.

Right..... so an honorspren Honorspren that looks like a windspren because they all look like windspren,---- or an honorspren Honorspren that Kaladin mistakes for a windspren even though he has seen them his whole life?

[Daishi5]

Right..... so an honorspren Honorspren that looks like a windspren because they all look like windspren,---- or an honorspren Honorspren that Kaladin mistakes for a windspren even though he has seen them his whole life?

 

I wonder if all of the "windspren" are actually honorspren, and that is why he made the mistake.  Syl was playing a lot of jokes by making things stick to his hands or people's feet, and he realized who did it.  A windspren making jokes by making things stick to each other doesn't make much sense.  Once you know Syl is an honorspren and she binds things, then all the "making stuff stick" pranks make more sense.  

 

So there are a few questions.  Do all windspren play pranks by making stuff stick to people and other things?  Do some of the windspren blow things around, and other make stuff stick?  Or, was Kaladin's windspren different from all the other windspren, and Kaladin just didn't notice that none of her pranks were about wind.  

[Bloodfalcon]

I wonder if all of the "windspren" are actually honorspren, and that is why he made the mistake.  Syl was playing a lot of jokes by making things stick to his hands or people's feet, and he realized who did it.  A windspren making jokes by making things stick to each other doesn't make much sense.  Once you know Syl is an honorspren and she binds things, then all the "making stuff stick" pranks make more sense.  

 

So there are a few questions.  Do all windspren play pranks by making stuff stick to people and other things?  Do some of the windspren blow things around, and other make stuff stick?  Or, was Kaladin's windspren different from all the other windspren, and Kaladin just didn't notice that none of her pranks were about wind.  

I find it to be an interesting quality for honorspren to follow around the wind up in the sky. Just crazy how they would fit so perfectly as windspren, but are really all about honor.

[marianmi]

An honorspren Honorspren that, when having its mind lost, floats around and is easily confused with a windpspren.

[Kurkistan]

Or *puts on crazy-person hat* Syl/other Windrunner-aspected honorspren latch onto the same basic "Wind" Form that normal windspren do.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Kurkistan