Colourism

[Dalia]

I’m a new fan of the Way of Kings and I’ve been enjoying the story thus far however I have been finding some problematic  elements in the book that have been making me feel uncomfortable. As a young Indian woman who has had to deal with colourism all her life I had hoped to escape those feelings of inferiority when I picked up this book. The fact that the general populace of dark-eyed people feel the need to join the war and risk death so as to have a shot at becoming light eyes is a mockery of the struggle people of colour face in the real world where the only option is to assimilate or risk being cast out.

 

I have enjoyed certain aspects of the book I also feel it'd be disingenuous to continue reading. Whilst I realise that ultimately this is just a fantasy book, I believe that such views are poisonous to society. 

[Cemci]

I'm sorry that you feel this way, and I agree that the dynamic where society is segregated via eye-colour is problematic. However, you should know that this dynamic between light-eyes and dark-eyes does not hold true for every character. Kaladin, for example, actively fights this system, and it is questioned by other characters at various points in the series. There are instances where characters from one segment stand up to and for the other.

 

In my personal opinion, Brandon Sanderson isn't trying to make mock of the segregation, which is a very serious problem in our societies, he is trying to explore the dynamic between the different factions and provide a parallel to our own universe. If you continue reading, you'll find many instances where lighteyes show solidarity with darkeyes and where darkeyes break the societal restrictions laid on them. 

[Ardjet]

First off, thank you for posting this. It isn't a view or opinion I've seen expressed about the Stormlight books before. I can certainly understand why ypu would feel uncomfortable with such an emphasis on eye colour.

I believe, personally, that the theme of colourism is something of an observation or parody on similar problems in our real world. I'm not sure how much you have read, so I will try not to spoil anything. But there are many characters in the books who demonstrate and discuss how eye colour does not and should not matter. Likewise, there are characters in the series who believe very strongly in the difference of eye colour. Just like in our world, there are many who do not care what colour someones skin is, and there are people who unfortunately do. In this I feel that Brandon Sanderson has set the stage for a change or shift in his world. At least I hope. The series is still far from finished.

What I might suggest is for you to perhaps observe how the characters who don't care about eye colour interact with others, especially of different eye colours. I hope that those characters will give you a more positive message.

Hopefully this helps, and again, I'm happy you came here and shared your opinion!

[WeiryWriter]

Hey, welcome to the forums!

 

I'm sorry that aspects of the book are making you feel uncomfortable, I don't think it was Brandon's intention to make anyone feel that way but he often does try to address issues from our world in his works and that can hit close to home.  There are definitely problems with the power structure in place, but Brandon and the book are not trying to condone it.  Instead it is an examination of said problematic power structure, in a more objective light (in a way that is more difficult to do when discussing real-life stuff).  Topics like how it arose and the problems inherent in it are things that are starting to be addressed and will only be expanded upon in future books.

 

Also I don't know if this will help but canonically the Alethi are people of color (both lighteyed and dark).  Brandon actually modeled them on people of mixed Hawaiian and Asian decent (as everybody on Roshar except the Shin have epicanthic folds) though since Rosharan races don't exactly match up to Earth ethnicities different people could think they were of a different ethnicity (for example Brandon has confirmed that Alethi could look East Indian as well).

[Kestrel]

Just because an author puts problematic aspects in their novels does not mean they agree with them!

I hardly feel that Sanderson is mocking the issue. In fact, I think he does a great job of bringing it up. A good author does not push topics like this under the rug; they accept that they do exist and will bring them out.

As stated previously, I bet there will be a huge shift soon in Alethi politics regarding eye color.

In any case, welcome to the forums! I really hope you finish this novel, and the second, as they are both well worth the read.

[GoddessIMHO]

Hi Dalia, I hope you will continue reading as the racist dynamic between the light eyes and dark eyes is a part of what the book is about. It is exploring how a chance of nature/breeding has lead one part of the society to consider itself above others. It is not just the light eyes that carry predjudice over this.

 

As you get further in you start to learn more about how this limits them and some startling truth about it.

Hair color is also used to determine some racial differences and of course there are also religious differences. This is not a utopia and the growth of the charaters is partly linked to how they deal with this. I have no idea how it will all play out but I can assure you this is not a series that will support this break in the society as a good thing. 

[tobar14]

He is writing about a controversial topic that people are passionate about (I'm assuming Sanderson is passionate about it too).  When an author makes you feel something, they are doing their job right.

 

There a soooo many stories/books/movies about a people being oppressed, and overcoming it...and I don't think they are mocking it.

 

The book also deals with sexism, prejudice against religions, restriction of knowledge, espionage, murder, slavery....

 

I mean, we could just read a book where everyone is happy and there is nothing wrong, but that would be pretty boring.

[Shardbearer]

Yes, these views are poisonous to society, and that's WHY Brandon is exploring themes like these in his books. He's not endorsing these views, or mocking them, but exploring why they're such a problem.

[navybrandt]

Racism (or colourism) is an evil that has existed for all of history. Whether you're talking about the KKK or the modern Black Lives Matter movement (shouldn't ALL lives matter). Even if society accepts it, that doesn't make it right. Would a historian writing about black slavery in America be supporting it? I think not! But it's a fact that existed and was accepted for too long. Brandon shows that many problems arise from the colourism in the Alethi society, and I think the parallels to history and modern problems are right on track.

[Lilaer]

I just have to debate that claim: Black Lives matter does not imply that other lives don’t matter. It is a reaction to the implied assumption in society, that black lives don’t matter. (And by ‘implied’ I mean putting this assumption into horrible practice.)

It’s the difference between:

 “Don’t hit that person.” (But hit everyone else.)

and

“Don’t hit that person. “ (Stop doing it!)

 

As for colorism in the SA…. Well, it seems obvious to me that Brandon Sanderson is highly critical of that attitude. Kaladin’s entire arc is caused by that evil in Alethi society and his attempts to survive if not even change it.

 

Kaladin is as heroic as any fantasy hero can possibly be. We readers never feel the slightest twinge of doubt that a darkeyed individual is as worthy as any lighteyes.  We wish feverntly that the discrimination will change in Alethkar (and are reasonably optimistic that it will, of course.) Conflict is part of a story.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Lilaer

[Aryanath]

I’m a new fan of the Way of Kings and I’ve been enjoying the story thus far however I have been finding some problematic  elements in the book that have been making me feel uncomfortable. As a young Indian woman who has had to deal with colourism all her life I had hoped to escape those feelings of inferiority when I picked up this book. The fact that the general populace of dark-eyed people feel the need to join the war and risk death so as to have a shot at becoming light eyes is a mockery of the struggle people of colour face in the real world where the only option is to assimilate or risk being cast out.

 

I have enjoyed certain aspects of the book I also feel it'd be disingenuous to continue reading. Whilst I realise that ultimately this is just a fantasy book, I believe that such views are poisonous to society. 

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, especially as a young man of Indian origin myself. But I don't find these issues to be "problematic" in a literary sense because problematic ideas like this are necessary for highlighting problematic practices that are a part of human history. As I see it, Stormlight Archive is an epic that demonstrates, among others, how individuals overcome their attitudes towards practices such as caste and slavery. You can really only explore these ethical and moral issues in a world that contains these "problematic elements," and not some anachronistic pre-modern setting where somehow, everyone is equal and happy. One of the greatest lessons I have learned from Sanderson's books is that we generate our own feelings of confidence and worth, which are intrinsic in all people, from ourselves, as Kaladin and Bridge 4 did, as Shallan did, as Vin and Elend did. Of course, this does not mean we should not fight for a better society. But this book represents historical reality in a way by showing, how, throughout history, people have always tried to better themselves by joining the nobility or (in the case of India, lower castes would attempt to emulate the practices of higher castes in a process called "Sanskritization") and many times that is their choice. Many people do want to join the mainstream, just as there are many people who want their choices to be accepted. Ultimately, the choice it theirs and should be respected. This book is a story and a lesson, but hardly poison. 

 

 

[navybrandt]

 

I just have to debate that claim: Black Lives matter does not imply that other lives don’t matter. It is a reaction to the implied assumption in society, that black lives don’t matter. (And by ‘implied’ I mean putting this assumption into horrible practice.)

It’s the difference between:

 “Don’t hit that person.” (But hit everyone else.)

and

“Don’t hit that person. “ (Stop doing it!)

 

Well, I can't let that sentiment slide, as to ignore the problem is to condone it. Here are the facts:

 

The Black Lives Matter movement is a racist, violent hate group that promotes the execution of police officers. Just look at their Twitter feed for starters. Here, here, here, or here. These "Assata Taught Me" shirts are referring to infamous cop killer Assata Shakur, otherwise known as Joanne Chesimard, who shot and killed a New Jersey State Trooper back in 1973. In 1977, Shakur was convicted and sentenced to prison but quickly escaped and has been a fugitive in Cuba ever since. She's also on the FBI's most wanted terrorism list. BLM glorifies Shakur as a hero and uses her writings and materials during training sessions. They pay homage to this Marxist cop-killer at every event they hold. Source

 

Former Black Panther Party member Kathleen Cleaver, who is a supporter of Shakur, is " thrilled" about the BLM movement. Source

 

BLM activists in Minneapolis chanted, "pigs in a blanket, fry em' like bacon," as they marched down the street. This rhetoric also came just one day after the execution of Texas Sheriff Deputy Daron Goforth while he was filling up his patrol car at a local gas station. If you aren't familiar, "pigs in a blanket" refers to the bodies of dead police officers in body bags. Source. Last December the man who killed two NYPD officers while they were eating lunch in their patrol car posted on his Instagram page, "Going to put pigs in a blanket" before carrying out his killings. In Ferguson, when news of the NYPD slayings hit, BLM protestors chanted and celebrated, "Pigs in a blanket!" This isn't happening in one place, it's happening around the country. BLM activists are using their own words and inspiration from convicted cop killers to promote the assassination of police officers.

 

Finally, it's important to point out most of the African American community flat out reject BLM or strongly disagree with the movement's tactics. Source. It's a racist movement, racist to the core... denounce the Black Lives Movement and replace it with All Lives Matter.

Edited October 27, 2015 by navybrandt

[Chaos]

Well, I can't let that sentiment slide, as to ignore the problem is to condone it. Here are the facts:

 

The Black Lives Matter movement is a racist, violent hate group that promotes the execution of police officers. Just look at their Twitter feed for starters. Here, here, here, or here. These "Assata Taught Me" shirts are referring to infamous cop killer Assata Shakur, otherwise known as Joanne Chesimard, who shot and killed a New Jersey State Trooper back in 1973. In 1977, Shakur was convicted and sentenced to prison but quickly escaped and has been a fugitive in Cuba ever since. She's also on the FBI's most wanted terrorism list. BLM glorifies Shakur as a hero and uses her writings and materials during training sessions. They pay homage to this Marxist cop-killer at every event they hold. Source

 

Former Black Panther Party member Kathleen Cleaver, who is a supporter of Shakur, is " thrilled" about the BLM movement. Source

 

BLM activists in Minneapolis chanted, "pigs in a blanket, fry em' like bacon," as they marched down the street. This rhetoric also came just one day after the execution of Texas Sheriff Deputy Daron Goforth while he was filling up his patrol car at a local gas station. If you aren't familiar, "pigs in a blanket" refers to the bodies of dead police officers in body bags. Source. Last December the man who killed two NYPD officers while they were eating lunch in their patrol car posted on his Instagram page, "Going to put pigs in a blanket" before carrying out his killings. In Ferguson, when news of the NYPD slayings hit, BLM protestors chanted and celebrated, "Pigs in a blanket!" This isn't happening in one place, it's happening around the country. BLM activists are using their own words and inspiration from convicted cop killers to promote the assassination of police officers.

 

Finally, it's important to point out most of the African American community flat out reject BLM or strongly disagree with the movement's tactics. Source. It's a racist movement, racist to the core... denounce the Black Lives Movement and replace it with All Lives Matter.

Okay, here's how this is going to go down: we are not going to have in-depth political discussion of Earth and its racism. If you are going to discuss politics, put it to PMs. Everyone should stick to relevant discussion to the books.

navybrandt, what I quoted is not relevant to the books, and simply has a political agenda. As an administrator, I do not care what political affiliation or opinions you have, but I do know that politics can get extremely charged. I will ask you to not continue this line of thought, and have you focus directly on Stormlight Archive.

This topic is not going to be a thread on "Black Lives Matter." That segment of this topic is done. I will not be having fights break out--fights that are off-topic to the topic at hand.

So, everyone, please continue this discussion, but keep it relevant to the books at all times. Be respectful of other viewpoints. But honestly, I think if everyone focuses on the book, it will be a fruitful discussion, rather than a political argument with no resolution. This topic is not going to have political arguments.

[navybrandt]

Understood and thanks for the friendly warning. Sorry if I sounded disrespectful as an open discussion was my intent. Anyone that wants to continue it is welcome to PM me.

[Lilaer]

Hm, posted before reading your (Chaos) reply.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Lilaer

[Elena]

I’m a new fan of the Way of Kings and I’ve been enjoying the story thus far however I have been finding some problematic  elements in the book that have been making me feel uncomfortable. As a young Indian woman who has had to deal with colourism all her life I had hoped to escape those feelings of inferiority when I picked up this book. The fact that the general populace of dark-eyed people feel the need to join the war and risk death so as to have a shot at becoming light eyes is a mockery of the struggle people of colour face in the real world where the only option is to assimilate or risk being cast out.

 

I have enjoyed certain aspects of the book I also feel it'd be disingenuous to continue reading. Whilst I realise that ultimately this is just a fantasy book, I believe that such views are poisonous to society. 

Hi Dalia! Thank you so much for writing this. It was extremely enlightening. You should know I am absolutely one of those people who thinks narrative doesn't exist in a vacuum, and that the 'it's fantasy' line doesn't excuse authors for writing things we would define 'problematic'. I'm very much against the spreading of harmful ideas under the 'it's fiction!' cover. However, this is absolutely not the case.

 

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but from this post I gathered it's not so much the racist elements in the book that bother you (okay, fantasy classism, but we all know what it's a metaphor for) but rather the way the society is structured is such a way that the major achievement for darkeyes is to *become* lighteyes, thus fully embracing the discriminating divide, and so on. You're right, is completely disturbing. It's also an excellent metaphor for some really ugly RL issues AND, most importantly, later on it is handled really, really well. Yes, I might be biased, being a fan et all, but I found the way the issue is discussed later on extremely thoughtful, because every hint of 'fiction as social commentary' really gets me going and here it's very well done.

 

There is a quote in the series later on, if you keep going, where one character says, "I don’t want my life to change because I’ve become a lighteyes. I want the lives of people like me, like I am now, to change." That's a) A pretty good summary of the way this issues is dealt with in the books, at least so far. It might even get better later on. Something that really hits home c) Really good advice, just substitute 'lighteyes' for whatever RL issue you're dealing with at the time. (BTW, there's no quantifying how much I love that entire scene, which is probably quite possibly my favourite out of a series that's already pretty spectacular to begin with. My harcover just opens at that page by now.)

 

Anyway, I thank you again for writing this post. It's good to have discussions like these every once in a while. I hope you keep reading - let me know!

[Sarge]

There is a quote in the series later on, if you keep going, where one character says, "I don’t want my life to change because I’ve become a lighteyes. I want the lives of people like me, like I am now, to change." That's a) A pretty good summary of the way this issues is dealt with in the books, at least so far. It might even get better later on. Something that really hits home c) Really good advice, just substitute 'lighteyes' for whatever RL issue you're dealing with at the time. (BTW, there's no quantifying how much I love that entire scene, which is probably quite possibly my favourite out of a series that's already pretty spectacular to begin with. My harcover just opens at that page by now.)

 

Anyway, I thank you again for writing this post. It's good to have discussions like these every once in a while. I hope you keep reading - let me know!

i thought it was just me! the most personally meaningful section from all of the cosmere!

but then I've always had a special affinity with that particular character...

Edited October 28, 2015 by Sarge