Second Ideal for EdgeDancers

[LegalBondsmith]

This is my first post, so please be kind.  Does anybody else think that the "words" said by Lift as she 'defends' Gawk could be the second ideal for her order of the KR?  The way it reads, it is not clear to me that she actually says them, but the words are spoken either in her head or to her in her head (or maybe outloud), kind of like Syl did with Kaladin before he joined the Battle of the Tower.  She seems to have the ongoing dialogue with her cultivationspren about why she is willing to sacrifice herself (her gut instinct to run) and return to save Gawk by using regrowth, even though she doesn't know how to use that power yet and that it may result in being captured by Nalan.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think it is a solid assumption that those words (I will remember those who have been forgotten) were the second ideal.  I don't think it is critical that the words are verbally spoken.  What I think is more critical is the choice to follow the ideal in a crisis of sorts where the normal course would be to make a different (not necessarily selfish) choice.

 

Edit: Also, it should be noted that we do not yet know that Darkness is Nalan. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I think it is a solid assumption that those words (I will remember those who have been forgotten) were the second ideal.  I don't think it is critical that the words are verbally spoken.  What I think is more critical is the choice to follow the ideal in a crisis of sorts where the normal course would be to make a different (not necessarily selfish) choice.

 

Edit: Also, it should be noted that we do not yet know that Darkness is Nalan. 

Doesn't Syl basically beg Kaladin to say the words at the Tower scene?

[Shardlet he/him]

She does.  But, there is no apparent effect when Kal says the first ideal because he is essentially just considering and repeating what Teft said.  But, before Kaladin orders bridge 4 back to the tower, you see crisis, the ideal coming into his mind, and the decision.  Same with Lift.  The crisis and decision seems to me to be more important than the utterance.

[Oudeis he/him]

Lift talks a lot throughout the interlude how she "bound [Wyndle] with words." I had just assumed that she's said the Second Ideal out loud long ago, and what we saw was her calling them to mind, reminding herself that she's a better person only because she does this thing.

[Windrunner he/him]

Personally, I thought she'd only said the First Ideal. Syl seemed to have formed a preliminary bond with Kaladin long before he became aware of the Immortal Words.

[Sirius7 he/him]

But I cant see Lift uttering the first Ideal. It is so out of character for her. Would have to wait for later books, mostly after book4) to know how she bonds/captured(as she believes) Wyndle and whether it was by uttering the first Ideal.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

I agree with Darnam. Upon reading, my impression was that she had already said the words, and was reminiscing about doing so.

[Aether he/him]

It is also possible that the First Ideal does is not as essential as the following ones, or at least that you don't have to voice them or embrace them at a pivotal point in your life. Kaladin didn't seem to change much when he learned about them, and he'd attracted Syl long before that.

[Shardlet he/him]

Because of Syl's progression (and Kaladin's incidental surgebinding), I would think it was safe to say that they had already bonded by the time Kaladin even heard the first ideal much less said or embraced it.

[marianmi]

Because of Syl's progression (and Kaladin's incidental surgebinding), I would think it was safe to say that they had already bonded by the time Kaladin even heard the first ideal much less said or embraced it.

 

+1. He was on the path to surgebinding then. After the words, he is on the path to radiantness.

[The Rooster he/him]

So what's the 3rd Ideal for Edgedancers. I have two guesses.

 

1. I will mend that which has been destroyed.

 

2. I will fill all others with awe.  (Translation "I will be Awesome")

[cem he/him]

1. I will mend that which has been destroyed.

I like it. Though I prefer "broken" instead of "destroyed."

[dionysus]

It is also possible that the First Ideal does is not as essential as the following ones, or at least that you don't have to voice them or embrace them at a pivotal point in your life. Kaladin didn't seem to change much when he learned about them, and he'd attracted Syl long before that.

 

I proposed this theory a month or two back, that First Ideal is not a power granting ideal for some of the same reasons you mention. Kaladin has his power and bond with Syl before he knows the First Ideal, and when he says it for the first time Brandon employs some sleight of phrasing to make it seem like he powered up but really he was just drawing in Stormlight.

 

I think the First Ideal is simply a way to try to unify surgebinders, and the 2nd - 5th ideals are the ones tied to power enhancement.

 

I even suspect that some of the ideals, under certain interpretations, will be contradictory to each other. Morality isn't black or white after all.

[Aether he/him]

Or, maybe the first Ideal is really the last ideal (!), and it only grants power-ups when you finally embrace the true essence of the Immortal Words after first having adopted the First through Fourth Ideal.

 

Think about it. "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination!" KA-BLOOOOSH!!!!! And the Knight Radiant in question has a Shardplate, -spear and -spear or dual-wielding Blades or whatever.

 

I even suspect that some of the ideals, under certain interpretations, will be contradictory to each other. Morality isn't black or white after all.

Sure. Syl and Kaladin say as much too, but in the end I believe Intent trumps all.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

She does.  But, there is no apparent effect when Kal says the first ideal because he is essentially just considering and repeating what Teft said.  But, before Kaladin orders bridge 4 back to the tower, you see crisis, the ideal coming into his mind, and the decision.  Same with Lift.  The crisis and decision seems to me to be more important than the utterance.

But it is the combination of the intent and the speech that does it. Without one, the other doesn't complete the process. Syl begs Kaladin to vocally express the ideal even though it is clear he is feeling it and determined to uphold it. The words are as critical. 

[Tranquil]

Just my two cents, and it echos what others have said. But I think it is more important to really own and internalize the ideals. Saying the words is not enough.

[Shardlet he/him]

But it is the combination of the intent and the speech that does it. Without one, the other doesn't complete the process. Syl begs Kaladin to vocally express the ideal even though it is clear he is feeling it and determined to uphold it. The words are as critical. 

 

I agree to a limited extent.  Syl's pleading is compelling.  But so are the other cases that I have cited.  I hold a final determination in abeyance until the next book when I am sure will will get much more evidence.  For now, I stand by my previous statements.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[Scriptorian he/him]

Think about it. "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination!" KA-BLOOOOSH!!!!! And the Knight Radiant in question has a Shardplate, -spear and -spear or dual-wielding Blades or whatever.

Up-vote for dual-shardblades! 

[dionysus]

Sure. Syl and Kaladin say as much too, but in the end I believe Intent trumps all.

 

Well I personally think it will go beyond that, as in fundamental philosophical differences. For example whatever ideal's Darkness' order has will be hard to reconcile with the Edgedancer ideals. He has true animosity to the ideals of that particular order. He thinks they worry about the unimportant things, and don't see the big picture to be precise.

 

From a practical perspective it is going to be impossible to come up with 40 mutually exclusive ideals that don't conflict with each other. Mercy vs. justice for example. They are almost opposites. 10 orders of zealots whose very power derives from how zealous they are has to be a volatile arrangement.

Edited December 16, 2013 by dionysus

[Aether he/him]

Well I personally think it will go beyond that, as in fundamental philosophical differences. For example whatever ideal's Darkness' order has will be hard to reconcile with the Edgedancer ideals. He has true animosity to the ideals of that particular order. He thinks they worry about the unimportant things, and don't see the big picture to be precise.

 

From a practical perspective it is going to be impossible to come up with 40 mutually exclusive ideals that don't conflict with each other. Mercy vs. justice for example. They are almost opposites. 10 orders of zealots whose very power derives from how zealous they are has to be a volatile arrangement.

I do not think the Orders really need to be in full agreement with each other. Remember that they date from the time of the ten Silver Kingdoms, where there nations had different specialities of governing that overlapped. They presumably would not agree on everything, but would find a way to live in harmony. The Knights Radiant seem to embody (or represent) the different Ideals of these Kingdoms (and honour and warfare in general) and would presumably be ten more or less autonomous - but cooperative - groups.

 

[11thorderknight]

I've had the same thoughts myself about the place of the 10 orders and their relationships with one another. I imagine it must be a bit like the 7 Ajahs of the White Tower, though I hope none of the orders got to the point of a Red/Blue brawl. I do wonder whether each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with any particular order and vice versa.

 

I'm personally not convinced that Darkness is Nalan, though I do believe he's either Nalan or Kalak. His description of the Edgedancers is pretty informative, I think. He calls them "a glorious order" and goes on about all the cool things they could do on the battlefield. He then says it's "a pity" that they devoted themselves to what he perceived as small causes and ignored the big picture. This doesn't sound like someone who dislikes or distains the Edgedancers, but he clearly has philosophical differences with their Ideals. You can see how both Nalan's and Kalak's Ideals would confict with Vev's. Edgedancers are all about not forgetting the "little details", i.e. the unimportant people, the collateral damage, etc. Confident and Resolute, on the other hand, are both similar in that they will stick with a grand plan in the face of negative outcomes if they believe it ultimately to be for the greater good.

Edited December 18, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[loganmathewjohnson]

I've had the same thoughts myself about the place of the 10 orders and their relationships with one another. I imagine it must be a bit like the 7 Ajahs of the White Tower, though I hope none of the orders got to the point of a Red/Blue brawl.

Upvote for the good comparison. I definitely agree- this idea gives room for the ideals of the Radiants to contradict each other, but for the Radiants to work together in a similar fashion as the Aes Sedai. As for some of the other stuff mentioned... I'm not sure. I read WoK when it first came out, and haven't touched it since. I'll begin my re-read in a week or so, when I get the copy I ordered from Amazon. I'll be more helpful then.

[Oudeis he/him]

. I'll begin my re-read in a week or so, when I get the copy I ordered from Amazon. I'll be more helpful then.

 

As you re-read, if you happen across the time when Lirin tells Kaladin about Shardblades and whether or not they turn you into a Lighteyes, please let me know which chapter that is. I'm having the devil's own time finding the quote.

[Shardlet he/him]

As you re-read, if you happen across the time when Lirin tells Kaladin about Shardblades and whether or not they turn you into a Lighteyes, please let me know which chapter that is. I'm having the devil's own time finding the quote.

 

I don't think Lirin does tell him that.  I pretty sure Laral speaks to him about it and/or that the farmers kids (including Jost) speak about it.