Taravangian

[Moogle]

Warning: long post.

 

Consider the following scenario:

 

You are king of a small nation. Kind-hearted, and filled with the desire to protect your people, you build hospitals to help the poor and hungry. Why should the poor die when you have the wealth to make things otherwise?

 

Your life goes well. The people are happy and look up to you. At least, your people do. The rest of the world is not so well off, but you are only one man. You help who you can and what else could the Almighty ask for?  You commission prayers, are reasonably devout. You look to the philosophy of the Shin, most peaceful of peoples, who abhor combat. You learn about their ways. You grow old, but your nation prospers.

 

Years later, during a highstorm, you are given a vision. Your land is about to be launched into the Final Desolation. Mythical wars that killed entire nations. It's horrible.

 

But maybe it's just old age. Dementia.

 

And then people speak of things when they die. The same things in your visions. Children speak with the voices of adults. It's unmistakeable: The Desolation is coming. Your people are going to die, and you can't stop it. You are a ruler of one small city, without much of an army.

 

You look to the world. Surely other nations can help. But no, Alethkar is locked in constant war. Other places fight, too. The Shin are peaceful, too peaceful. There are no Heralds, no Radiants.

 

Well, what can you do?

 

Unite them, the visions said.

 

You go to the Old Magic in the mountains, and ask a boon of the Nightwatcher. A heresy. Small price to pay, if it will help anyone at all. You cannot stand by and let people be hurt. Give me the ability to save my people.

 

The Nightwatcher, in her strange way, gives you what you want. A curse and a boon in one: randomly fluctuating intelligence.

 

One day, your clarity of thought is as strong as it's ever been. You can see, clearly, how the world has to be united. It can't be peacefully done. The histories are very clear on that, and with your power of mind, you can see it in the politics of the nations. They can never be peacefully brought together.

 

Your heart breaks. But, it's better one man be damned than an entire world be destroyed.

 

You need more information. No one knows who, or what the Voidbringers are. The death cries of people bring you promises of the future. And so you bring your terminally ill patients in the hospitals behind closed doors, recruit trusted ardents. Record their cries as they die, and use the Nightwatcher's boon to use the information contained within to save Roshar. The cries, you find, match up with real world events in some cases. Not many are that useful, but some are. You don't have enough.

 

You need more. This, too, breaks your heart. You aren't going to do it, but a woman comes to you, and claims to be a Herald. She can do things, and knows things. Her name is Betab. She offers to help. You bring those with horrible conditions, and find those on the street who live terrible lives. You wish they didn't have to die, but it's better a thousand die than a million. The information is too important. At least it's those who live poor lives. And you'll kill them yourself, because who would ask a man to do something he would not do himself?

 

Meanwhile, the nations war. Unite them. The leaders of each nation are warlords. They will not listen to diplomacy, and you can hardly reveal how you know the future without being branded a monster. Which you are. You're giving up your place in fight for the Tranquiline Halls, you'll be cursed to Damnation, but at least the people will live.

 

So, you again use the Nightwatcher's boon. A secret society formed, spies in every nation. And you find an assassin. Diplomacy would work in an ideal world, but that is not what this is. This is a broken world, and the only way to lead the people to safety is to force them to it. Their leaders would lead them to death. You will remove them, and the people will cry out for stability and protection. You will offer it. Some of these leader's are your dear friends, but you can sacrifice for the people. What is the pain of losing your friends to the lives of millions?

 

You can be an emperor. Protect the people. With you in charge, you can stop the wars between people and focus them on training for the Desolation. Many people will die. You'll be branded a tyrant by some, because not all nations will cry out for you to take over. But it's what you have to be; no one else has your knowledge or the will to use it.

 

And through it all, you'll mourn for the friends you had to kill. When you die, there will be punishment waiting, punishment rightfully deserved. But the people will live.

 

------------

 

Taravangian could be, I think, the most honorable and selfless person in Roshar, at least in a certain manner of speaking. Where Szeth kills because he doesn't want to give up his afterlife, Taravangian perhaps gives up his afterlife to save people. I'm not saying I believe I've figured out his motivations fully, or that this is how he feels, but there are hints in the book pointing in this direction. I believe half of the writeup never happened, and has no chance of having happened. The above is propaganda in a way, presenting Taravangian in the best possible light, crackpot theories galore. For example, I don't believe he's seen the highstorm visions necessarily, but there is a chance. I think Brandon has a good opportunity with Taravangian to create a sympathetic villain.

 

I find Taravangian tragic. I think he's going to fail. The Stormlight Archive is a book about the triumphs of people who hold to honor, who see journey before destination. Act with honor, and honor will aid you. This is not Taravangian. Brandon doesn't write morally gray protagonists; that's A Song of Ice and Fire. This will be a story of the triumphs of deontologists over consequentialists. Taravangian will be a villain, though a villain with some sympathetic motivations, I hope.

 

Anyways, I had a purpose in mind with this post but I think I've meandered away from it in writing it up. I'm just sad for Taravangian already.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

That is a plausible line of reasoning.  I don't see any indication yet that he has seen or does see storm visions like Dalinar does.  i also don't see what role Betab plays in the whole thing.  If she did come to help, I doubt she would have done so using her true name (but that is semantics).

 

I agree that Taravangian is genuine in his quest.  I also think he will fail and I wouldn't be surprised if he fell at the hands of his own people.  Although karma suggests that Szeth should do it.

 

As to the waywardness of the post, let us call it an ode to Taravangian: A tragic figure.

[Gamma Fiend]

I definitely feel for Taravangian. After reading the WoR interlude I understood him a lot more. Hope to see a bit more of him in the future.

[The Count]

Brandon doesn't write morally gray protagonists;

I agree with everything you wrote above apart from this. Brandon definitely writes morally ambiguous characters...

Kelser and Hoid are the most obvious characters to note.

Kelsier is, basically a psycophath (or at least a sociopath) and manipulates all the other characters in TFE for the sake of his own need for revenge. It just so happens that his plan is actually one that combats the evil of the Steel Ministry and the tyranny of The Lord Ruler.

Hoid is even more ambiguous, he seems to do good but is entirely focussed on the big picture and his own goals. I do not doubt that Hoid would leave someone to die in order to achieve his desires. We have no idea if his ultimate design is for good or not.

Then look as Jasnah, the whole point of her lesson to Shallan is that morality is not so easy to define. Jasnah I would say is definitely a morally grey character.

I agree that Brandon does tend to make it clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. This, I think, comes out of his cinematic writing style.

That said, it is not really clear in TWoK who the enemy really is.

Taravangian and Szeth, as you so eloquently say, do evil things but may not be the bad guys really.

Odium is still very amorphous and it is unclear exactly what his influence has been. But he is, undeniably a bad guy.

Sadeas is the closest thing to a true antagonist in the book, but he is no worse than any of the other highprinces, he is just more powerful and devious. He may yet be redeemed with some / all of the others is Dalinar succeeds.

I think there are plenty of morally ambiguous characters in SA. It is, for me, what makes the series so compelling.

Edited December 11, 2013 by The Count

[The Rooster]

That sounds like a pretty sound theory.  I wonder why, if he wants to unite everyone he'd want Dalinar dead?  He seems to be a force for uniting.  Maybe he only cares about Alethkar and Big T needs someone more Globally minded, and he needs a weak Elhokar to do that.

[TwistedMisting]

I think Taravangian doesn't want Dalinar to unite the Alethi princes because it will interfere with his own plans for a more global unity. I can't remember the quote word for word, but at the end, in his conversation with Szeth, he actually SAYS that Dalinar is getting close to uniting the princes and that is the reason he orders Szeth to kill him. I think he believes he is the only one who knows what is coming and how to stop it. It doesn't occur to him that Dalinar is also aware and trying to prepare his nation for the desolation.

[Shardbearer]

Someone else pointed out in a different thread that Dalinar is known as the Blackthorn. He was a bad guy, a war general to a tyrant (from a certain perspective).

 

Big T might not know that Dalinar has changed his stripes. Oh sure, he certainly has spies or something watching things, but Dalinar's recent honorable behavior could all just be an act.

[briangri]

If Taravangian's is actually a moral guy trying to create instability, why does he tell Szeth to essentially "kill everyone in the way"? I don't see how burning through normal soldiers would have any more shock value than say, flying around and destroying shardbearers. 

 

Maybe Tara has been corrupted, maybe he was always a grey figure, but I really can't see him as honorable/selfless.

[Shardlet]

Someone else pointed out in a different thread that Dalinar is known as the Blackthorn. He was a bad guy, a war general to a tyrant (from a certain perspective).

 

Big T might not know that Dalinar has changed his stripes. Oh sure, he certainly has spies or something watching things, but Dalinar's recent honorable behavior could all just be an act.

 

It should be noted though, that Dalinar began his change shortly after the death of Gavilar.  He apparently had been acting the way he is now for quite some time.  Enough time for him to become renowned for honorability.

[Shardbearer]

It should be noted though, that Dalinar began his change shortly after the death of Gavilar.  He apparently had been acting the way he is now for quite some time.  Enough time for him to become renowned for honorability.

Yes, but he could have been acting the whole time. Or he was shaken up by the death and this honorable side is just his way of coping and will go out the door as soon as things get too difficult.

[junior]

Yes, but he could have been acting the whole time. Or he was shaken up by the death and this honorable side is just his way of coping and will go out the door as soon as things get too difficult.

 

No, Dalinar's been acting in a fashion opposite that of every last one of his peers.  It's *been* difficult for him.  His alliance with Sadeas only came about after every last one of the other Highprinces had rejected him.  Further, if Taravangian knows about the recent changes that Dalinar forced onto Elohkar, then he *also* knows about Dalinar giving up his shardblade (news about something that unusual is going to spread like wildfire).  And that's not the move of a man who's "acting".

 

(Or as Kaladin puts it later when he's mulling over the issue, at what point does pretending to be honorable essentially become being honorable?  If Dalinar's willing to give up his shardblade in order to "pretend" to be honorable, then won't *all* of his actions essentially be those of an honorable man regardless of the actual motivations?)

[Shardbearer]

Yes, but we're talking about what T knows from his spies. Dalinar gave his shardblade up at the end of the book. T ordered his assassination at the end of the book, also. There's no saying whether he knew about that latest move or not.

 

Also, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here.

[Gamma Fiend]

1)I hope we can start calling him Mr. T here, like in that other thread. Cause it's just too funny.

2)Mr. T orders Szeth to kill as many as he can in order to sow as much chaos as possible. This is what Mr. T needs. Not just an assassin, a a ruthless force of nature that terrifies people. Assassins have been a threat forever. This new thing though, this unnatural beast that slaughters in white, that's a very powerful unifying tool. The man seen to beat someone/something like that after it has wiped out all other competition... well let's just say Mr. T might just be handed the crown.

3)Whether Mr T. believes Dalinar to be the Blackthorn or the new honorable man he is now, he's still competition. You can't have two people 'Unite Them'. Mr T is already committed to his goal and he's been working at this for a while. His bet is 'all-in' at this point. No half-assing it or hesitating. He MUST be the only person to unite the land, knowing what only he knows.

At least that's what I've been assuming Mr T's line of logic has been.

[king of nowhere]

dalinar is honorable, but from the outside it can all seem a ruse for political goal. And T certainly has no way of knowing of his visions. as far as he's concerned, he's just another warlord of alethkar. and as far as being an honorable one, lord harrowmont from dragon age was an honorable guy, but still giving him the crown resulted in political paralysis and hisolationism. being honorable don't mean you can do the job. So as far as T knows, killing dhalinar is still for the best.

 

And that's the main reason doing evil for a good cause is wrong. I mostly agree with the consequentialistic point of view, so killing one thousand people to save a million would actually be a good thing. Problem is, there is no such a thing as omniscience, and you can't be sure of your judgment. So, if you try that way, you know for sure you're doing evil, but you don''t know whether the goood will happen or not.  you are likely to kill one thousand people and fail to save anyone. or you save that million, but will build up tension that will result in a bigger war later. or maybe those million people weren't going to die anyway and you just killed your thousand for no reason. or maybe you almost manage it, but are stopped by someone who is equally good oriented but disagrees with yourr strategy - or simply don't know about it. Maybe someone else has a better solution and you're hindering him (which is the actual case here).

So, doing evil for a good cause is wrong, because 99% of times it don't work and it only makes things worse.

 

But yes, I symphatize with T anyway.

[marianmi]

I think there is more to Mr. T than meets the eye...

[Scott]

Maybe he's Optimus Prime... 

 

vewy vewy sneaky

[Gamma Fiend]

I wonder if Taravangian pities the fools who don't know the Desolation is coming...

[Meg]

Yes, but we're talking about what T knows from his spies. Dalinar gave his shardblade up at the end of the book. T ordered his assassination at the end of the book, also. There's no saying whether he knew about that latest move or not.

 

Also, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here.

As for I'm sure that the chapters are chronological Dalinar had already given up his Shardblade when Szeth received the order to kill him from Taravangian. Given that there exists an instant form of communication (spanreeds), Taravangian could have got the information already (surely he has his spies on the Shattered Planes).

Musing: What if Dalinar giving up his Shardplate made him unworthy in Taravangian's eyes? What if this action is the reason for Taravangian to want to have Dalinar "removed"?

[Shardlet]

In conjunction with that Meg, I'd point out that the final Dalinar/Kaladan scene occurs in the book after thet Szeth/Taravangian scene.  And that the final Kaladin/Dalinar scene is the same day that Dalinar gave up his shardblade.  The time frame for communication becomes more crunched.

 

Does anyone else here think that is was a very good thing for Taravangian that Szeth showed up on one of Taravangian's good days?

[Aether]

In conjunction with that Meg, I'd point out that the final Dalinar/Kaladan scene occurs in the book after thet Szeth/Taravangian scene.  And that the final Kaladin/Dalinar scene is the same day that Dalinar gave up his shardblade.  The time frame for communication becomes more crunched.

How do we know this? There are no clear chronological markers in the book from what I've been able to tell. I always felt like the dates of the Death Chants in the Epigraphs served to give a general time-frame, but that breaks completely down later in the book when the Epigraphs jumps months ahead in time while several chapters take place the very same day.

 

Does anyone else here think that is was a very good thing for Taravangian that Szeth showed up on one of Taravangian's good days?

You think he might have somehow been able to plan for it? If not, what do you think would have happened if he turned up on one of his bad days?

Edited December 14, 2013 by Aether

[hoser]

As for I'm sure that the chapters are chronological Dalinar had already given up his Shardblade when Szeth received the order to kill him from Taravangian. Given that there exists an instant form of communication (spanreeds), Taravangian could have got the information already (surely he has his spies on the Shattered Planes).

Musing: What if Dalinar giving up his Shardplate made him unworthy in Taravangian's eyes? What if this action is the reason for Taravangian to want to have Dalinar "removed"?

Interesting.  I think that what slated Dalinar for execution was his effectiveness.  If the Alethi were going to be well led, Mr. T had to put a stop to it.  For one thing, it would be harder for Mr. T to be the only leader left.  For another, a younger Alethi leader would be a more logical candidate to take over. 

Mr. T could have been reacting to Dalinar and Sadeas working together, but I actually think that he is reacting to the Highprince for War arrangement.  I think Mr. T has spies close to Elhokar.  I wonder whether he also has cryptics spying on Elhokar.  They could even have seen the confrontation w/Dalinar and passed the information to Mr. T somehow. 

[Meg]

In conjunction with that Meg, I'd point out that the final Dalinar/Kaladan scene occurs in the book after thet Szeth/Taravangian scene.  And that the final Kaladin/Dalinar scene is the same day that Dalinar gave up his shardblade.  The time frame for communication becomes more crunched.

 

Good point, because according to my own theory "Justice", "Recorded in Blood" and "Trust" should have happened on the same day. And though I claim spanreeds and spies, it seems unlikely (even to me) that Taravangian really already knew about Dalinar's decision when Szeth reached him.

 

Does anyone else here think that is was a very good thing for Taravangian that Szeth showed up on one of Taravangian's good days?

I don't think he can choose his good and bad days.

Why the tests every morning, if he could choose?

[Sleigh]

I agree with Hoser. If you are working to unite the people (thus ending war), the last thing you would want is an Alethi High Prince Of War. Perhaps Mr. T thought Dalinar could be "converted" because of his recent actions, but it hen he finds out Dalinar wants to be High Prince of War. That, on its face, seems to go against Dalinar's recent public action. Mr. T knows the what, just not the why.

[Aether]

I don't think he can choose his good and bad days.

I doubt Shardlet was implying that he could chose. He was simply thinking that it was lucky that Szeth came to him on a "good day".

[The Rooster]

How do we know this? There are no clear chronological markers in the book from what I've been able to tell. I always felt like the dates of the Death Chants in the Epigraphs served to give a general time-frame, but that breaks completely down later in the book when the Epigraphs jumps months ahead in time while several chapters take place the very same day.

You think he might have somehow been able to plan for it? If not, what do you think would have happened if he turned up on one of his bad days?

I thought of this too. I think he calculated that even on a bad day he could manage to say "Don't kill me" and hold a stone in the air.