Most Overrated and Most Underrated Sanderson Story

[Guest]

I know opinions on Megan will differ, but I'd say there's a big difference between "con woman" and "woman trying to act like a normal human while trying to rid herself of addictive, insanity-inducing superpowers she never asked for."

 

I understand this, but Megan seems to rob me off in ways I have a hard time to explain. She just makes me think of... people and not in a pleasant way. I have a hard time feeling any empathy for her. This being said, I am sorry for Prof though. Oh so very sorry.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'm not wanting to perpetuate the conversation here, nor join it, but I just wanted to note something interesting about Maxal's complaints about David. About half of them perfectly describe Adolin. I find it very interesting that context truly matters when it comes to liking or disliking a character. You wouldn't think this to be true, but I guess it's tough to mentally remove characters from their context and place them in a completely different one.

[Guest]

I'm not wanting to perpetuate the conversation here, nor join it, but I just wanted to note something interesting about Maxal's complaints about David. About half of them perfectly describe Adolin. I find it very interesting that context truly matters when it comes to liking or disliking a character. You wouldn't think this to be true, but I guess it's tough to mentally remove characters from their context and place them in a completely different one.

 

I am curious to see where you see a resemblance in between David and Adolin... they are widely different characters with a completely different personality set.

[DreamEternal]

I am curious to see where you see a resemblance in between David and Adolin... they are widely different characters with a completely different personality set.

I think he was talking about Adolin's ability with a shardblade. Prodigies and young masters exist, but Adolin's skill stretches suspension of disbelief at times.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I think he was talking about Adolin's ability with a shardblade. Prodigies and young masters exist, but Adolin's skill stretches suspension of disbelief at times.

It's true that the one duel he stood a chance of losing was where he was hopelessly outmatched. Different contexts, yes, but now that you mention it, Adolin's skill is pretty comparable to David's comprehensive notes and near-encyclopedic knowledge of Epics and their powers.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I am curious to see where you see a resemblance in between David and Adolin... they are widely different characters with a completely different personality set.

 

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

Well, to start there's the similarities in their role as a part of the team. David is pretty much shunned from doing any of the thinking during the planning stage, which is similar to how Dalinar and Navani exclude Adolin. Meanwhile, David is the point man during missions, the guy that does everything and thinks of on-the-spot solutions to problems that arise during the mission. Adolin, likewise, is the one wearing the plate and wielding the blade out on the plateaus and in the duels, thinking of on-the-spot solutions to problems that arise.

 

Then there's the romance. Your complaints about David are that he's originally smitten by Megan's looks. But that's how Adolin's been pickin' 'em since the dawn of his sexual discovery. And before anyone mentions how he didn't pick Shallan but that Jasnah did, I would have you go and reread the chapter where Adolin and Shallan actually meet. The one in which Shallan enters court to tell Navani and Dalinar of Jasnah's death. The one in which Adolin is just completely taken aback by how extravagant and exotic Shallan looks. He's completely smitten with her, without even knowing anything about her (and unlike Reckoners, Shallan is the same way to him).

 

None of that brings up broader similarities, such as the way they are physically built, the fact that both of them are rather proficient at their respective combat scenarios, as well as both having a rather high weapon proficiency (Adolin's is a little more believable, but still), the way they are both willing to self sacrifice to save those they love, they are both paradigm males in their respective societies, and their extreme desire for revenge. I'm sure there's more, but those are off the top of my head.

 

To be honest, the only major complaint you've offered that doesn't clearly reciprocate for Adolin, in some way, is the one about David knowing and being able to figure out weaknesses. But to me, his ability to do that is justified. Whereas Adolin has spent his life studying combat, and as such can name all the stances and knows each one's strengths and weaknesses, David has spent his life studying Epics, and understands their classifications and powers. He knows the patterns involved in Epics and their powers. As such, his figuring out Newton's weakness did not feel forced, but was rather an extension of his knowledge base. But, as I said, I'm not trying to change your mind about the novel, nor am I trying to tint your image of Adolin.

 

I wonder if you'd like Adolin as much as you do were he to not have had other PoV's separating his own. Like, if you read all of Adolin's chapters together, or if the story was told entirely through his PoV (like Reckoners). *shrugs* It truly is interesting how much context adds, or perhaps in this case, detracts.

 

Edit: Forgot to close spoiler. Whoops.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Guest]

I think he was talking about Adolin's ability with a shardblade. Prodigies and young masters exist, but Adolin's skill stretches suspension of disbelief at times.

 

Not exactly when you consider Adolin has trained for it since he was 6 years old.

 

David mastered technologies within a few weeks and learned how to swim in two days despite being deadly scared of water.

 

If anything, David's progression with respect to his world techniques is more akin to Kaladin than Adolin. Adolin, we have ample proof of how hard he trained to achieve his current level.

 

 

It's true that the one duel he stood a chance of losing was where he was hopelessly outmatched. Different contexts, yes, but now that you mention it, Adolin's skill is pretty comparable to David's comprehensive notes and near-encyclopedic knowledge of Epics and their powers.

 

I don't know... You think they are similar? I guess in we could say that, in the sense David focused all his energies on it since he was a child which is reminiscent of Adolin spending all his time mastering his swordsmanship. They both focus very strongly on their one area of expertise. We have also been given ample proof of David's mastering his guns, I don't critic that. It was plenty believable.  What has bothered me by David and his notes was the fact he had literally no resources to develop them. It seemed far-fetched he could built something more detailed than the Reckoners without relations. Adolin had Zahel... so it did help.

 

I also think Adolin is bond to lose a few duels in the neat future... 

[Guest]

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

Well, to start there's the similarities in their role as a part of the team. David is pretty much shunned from doing any of the thinking during the planning stage, which is similar to how Dalinar and Navani exclude Adolin. Meanwhile, David is the point man during missions, the guy that does everything and thinks of on-the-spot solutions to problems that arise during the mission. Adolin, likewise, is the one wearing the plate and wielding the blade out on the plateaus and in the duels, thinking of on-the-spot solutions to problems that arise.

 

Adolin is not shunned away from the war planning: he is an integral part of it and has an active voice in the matter.The only time Dalinar discussed strategy with Navani away from Adolin was when he tried to decide if he should abdicate in his favor. He also withhold certain information regarding Gavilar's death, but these weren't things Adolin needed to know and Dalinar thought his son was still too young to be entrusted with the whole truth. Unlike David here, Adolin has a strong respect for authority. 

 

I also disagree Adolin's role in the army is similar to David. David is running a one-man's show inside a cohesive unit and while he has his orders, he only obeys if he sees fit. Adolin, on the other hand, is a war general. He oversees much more than his own person, but a battalion comprised of some 1000 men. That was back in WoK. In WoR, he runs the entire army, he calls the shots and while he fights at the front, he still is very much in charge of the effort. The only orders he receives are from Dalinar and he promptly obeys. He is extremely obedient while David isn't. Adolin does not lead rogue charges nor does he single-handily go after foes. 

 

So I disagree their role within their team is similar. They aren't.

 

 

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

Then there's the romance. Your complaints about David are that he's originally smitten by Megan's looks. But that's how Adolin's been pickin' 'em since the dawn of his sexual discovery. And before anyone mentions how he didn't pick Shallan but that Jasnah did, I would have you go and reread the chapter where Adolin and Shallan actually meet. The one in which Shallan enters court to tell Navani and Dalinar of Jasnah's death. The one in which Adolin is just completely taken aback by how extravagant and exotic Shallan looks. He's completely smitten with her, without even knowing anything about her (and unlike Reckoners, Shallan is the same way to him).

 

David and Megan's romance took about 3/4 of Firefight. Nearly all the book was about this romance while Adolin and Shallan last for a few pages. What I critic mostly was the fact Megan was a blend character to me and the fact David spend an entire book disobeying, putting his team at risk and destroying the mission simply because of Megan. Adolin, on the other hand, let Shallan falls to her death because rescuing Dalinar was more important to the grand scheme of things. 

 

So again, I disagree. If both characters were initially attracted based on looks, their entire behavior is widely different. One decides his romance matters more than anything else and completely forsake all other considerations while the other sees his duty as more important. The fact David turned out being right does not change the fact he is a rogue who effectively endangered his team. He let an enemy inside their base, he told another of their plan all this because he was in love. While I understand the sentient, I strongly disagree it bears any resemblance to Adolin.

 

 

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

None of that brings up broader similarities, such as the way they are physically built, the fact that both of them are rather proficient at their respective combat scenarios, as well as both having a rather high weapon proficiency (Adolin's is a little more believable, but still), the way they are both willing to self sacrifice to save those they love, they are both paradigm males in their respective societies, and their extreme desire for revenge. I'm sure there's more, but those are off the top of my head.

 

Edit: Forgot to close spoiler. Whoops.

 

Do we even know about David's physical built? I thought we were quite short on descriptions here... Not that we know much about Adolin except he's an athlete. While I do agree both are willing to sacrifice themselves for love, I disagree about Adolin being driven by revenge. Adolin was driven, in WoK, by a desire to make his father well again (to heal) and to protect those he loves. In WoR, he follows essentially the same theme with the exception his main preoccupation is to fulfill his father's plan. Revenge at Sadeas comes as a distant second, which is unlike David's desire who fueled him for years.

 

 

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

To be honest, the only major complaint you've offered that doesn't clearly reciprocate for Adolin, in some way, is the one about David knowing and being able to figure out weaknesses. But to me, his ability to do that is justified. Whereas Adolin has spent his life studying combat, and as such can name all the stances and knows each one's strengths and weaknesses, David has spent his life studying Epics, and understands their classifications and powers. He knows the patterns involved in Epics and their powers. As such, his figuring out Newton's weakness did not feel forced, but was rather an extension of his knowledge base. But, as I said, I'm not trying to change your mind about the novel, nor am I trying to tint your image of Adolin.

 

The problem I have with David is his life is rather short and he spend most it without any means. To have him be better than Tia at guessing seemed forced. I would have preferred if it were a joint effort.

 

Another one is David is not comfortable being around people. He is awkward while Adolin is a social butterfly. I personally found David more akin to Kaladin in all ways: too fast learning curves, moody and grumpy, can be impulsive when stuck with a negative emotion, disrespectful of authority, talks out of turn, failure to see the larger game, poor at social interaction, but also heroic, protector of people and sharing the tendency to be a badass when it matters. However, David has more personal energy than Kaladin  (he is more bouncy) and is more bright (I mean happy there not intelligent), in general, but those two are more similar than Adolin and David.

 

Spoilers for Reckoners and Words of Radiance follow.

I wonder if you'd like Adolin as much as you do were he to not have had other PoV's separating his own. Like, if you read all of Adolin's chapters together, or if the story was told entirely through his PoV (like Reckoners). *shrugs* It truly is interesting how much context adds, or perhaps in this case, detracts.

 

I doubt so. There is nothing I yearn more than more Adolin's POV. There aren't enough of these. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by maxal

[Blaze1616 he/him]

This one's a doozy. Spoilers are all for Stormlight and Reckoners (both Maxal's in the quotes and mine).
 

 

Adolin is not shunned away from the war planning: he is an integral part of it and has an active voice in the matter.The only time Dalinar discussed strategy with Navani away from Adolin was when he tried to decide if he should abdicate in his favor. He also withhold certain information regarding Gavilar's death, but these weren't things Adolin needed to know and Dalinar thought his son was still too young to be entrusted with the whole truth. Unlike David here, Adolin has a strong respect for authority. 
 
I also disagree Adolin's role in the army is similar to David. David is running a one-man's show inside a cohesive unit and while he has his orders, he only obeys if he sees fit. Adolin, on the other hand, is a war general. He oversees much more than his own person, but a battalion comprised of some 1000 men. That was back in WoK. In WoR, he runs the entire army, he calls the shots and while he fights at the front, he still is very much in charge of the effort. The only orders he receives are from Dalinar and he promptly obeys. He is extremely obedient while David isn't. Adolin does not lead rogue charges nor does he single-handily go after foes. 
 
So I disagree their role within their team is similar. They aren't.

 

From what I recall, much of the planning is done by Dalinar and Navani, often alone during their walks or Dalinar's episodes during a highstorm. Once Adolin is informed of the plans, he tends to try and add to them, at which point Dalinar and Navani usually wave off his suggestions. This is exactly what happens to David, and both characters have the occasional "good point, we'll revise the plan in this way..." at which point the planners continue to plan without Adolin's/David's input. Heck, I think Kaladin had more planning input in WoR than Adolin has had in both books.
 
As for combat, I'll concede your point about Adolin at war. Though I don't fully agree, and there are definite parallels between Adolin's plateau assaults and David's missions, I recognize that they are different enough to not bother continuing the discussion.
 
I also feel it's pertinent to note that while David does act on his impulses and Adolin, in general, doesn't, that doesn't mean Adolin isn't impulsive. It just means Adolin has enough fortitude to mentally stop himself from acting on his impulses in situations where he knows his father wouldn't approve. Take nearly every social interaction in WoR in which Adolin is interacting with a member of "Team Sadeas". In just about all of them, Adolin's thoughts are always impulsive and suggests that he wants to act impulsively, but he mentally interjects to keep himself from acting on those impulses. This, of course, is not always the case, such as when he is impulsive and arrogant and makes his poorly worded duel modification to Relis, or when he, you know, kills Sadeas. I'd bet money that Adolin would be more impulsive in the novels should Dalinar's approval not be an issue.

 

David and Megan's romance took about 3/4 of Firefight. Nearly all the book was about this romance while Adolin and Shallan last for a few pages. What I critic mostly was the fact Megan was a blend character to me and the fact David spend an entire book disobeying, putting his team at risk and destroying the mission simply because of Megan. Adolin, on the other hand, let Shallan falls to her death because rescuing Dalinar was more important to the grand scheme of things. 
 
So again, I disagree. If both characters were initially attracted based on looks, their entire behavior is widely different. One decides his romance matters more than anything else and completely forsake all other considerations while the other sees his duty as more important. The fact David turned out being right does not change the fact he is a rogue who effectively endangered his team. He let an enemy inside their base, he told another of their plan all this because he was in love. While I understand the sentient, I strongly disagree it bears any resemblance to Adolin.

 

"A few pages" is a very conservative way to say it, considering they probably get somewhere between 2-5 chapters worth of coverage. Granted, much of it is from Shallan's point of view, or even Kaladin's, but it's still there. I can't argue with Megan being a bland character, but in David's defense Shallan is never out in the field with Adolin, unlike Megan. That said, I think you're heavily undervaluing the Adolin-Shallan relationship. 
 
Keep in mind that we're talking about Adolin here, Mr. No Commitment, Mr. I'm Not Bored With This Relationship Yet, Mr. I'll Date You Until Another Pretty Thing Walks By. In Chapter 68 of WoR Adolin tells Kaladin, about Shallan, "People think I know a lot about women. The truth is, I know how to get them - how to make them laugh, how to make them interested. I don't know how to keep them. I really want to keep this one." Now, with this in mind, let's examine the scene you are referring to when you say Adolin ditches Shallan to save Dalinar.
 
In scene, Kaladin and Dalinar have just crossed a bridge in front of the army. Adolin and Shallan are walking together across the bridge, approaching the center. Dalinar gets called back across the bridge by the Team Sadeas infiltrator. Dalinar passes Adolin and Shallan. Adolin and Shallan reach the center of the bridge as Kaladin recognizes the man who called Dalinar back across the bridge as a carpenter from Sadeas's camp, and that the man is standing next to a lever. Kaladin begins to sprint across the bridge. Adolin notices Kaladin sprinting towards him and Shallan, turns, and begins to run towards Dalinar and this threat that Kaladin has seen, though he knows not what it is. Kaladin reaches Shallan in the center and yells to Adolin to stop the carpenter at the lever. Dalinar gets distracted by the horns at some point during all this. The carpenter pulls the lever as Adolin reaches Dalinar. Given that Kaladin and Shallan fall together, Kaladin must have stopped when he reach Shallan.
 
There are a couple take aways from this. First, and this is a theory, Adolin leaves Shallan because he subconsciously fully expects Kaladin to protect her. Adolin is both better suited to fight whatever the threat is, and is closer to said threat, so it is common sense that he engages the threat while Kaladin protects people and takes them to safety. It is also somewhat shown that Kaladin was subconciously doing this when he says "one future daughter-in-law, delivered safe and sound" upon their return to the camps, implying that she's under his protection as well, plus, as I noted, he did stop when he reached her. As I've said, though, this is just a theory because it's never definitively stated in the book.
 
That said, you must also remember that Adolin had no idea that the threat was the bridge plummeting to the ground. In that very chapter, chapter 68, Kaladin and Adolin discuss what they'd do should the Assassin in White were to attack. Adolin is expecting Szeth to show up. So when he runs away from Shallan, he believes her to be safely behind him. He can stop an attacker from advancing, from reaching her. His actions may have been different had he known she could plummet to her death from the threat they were facing.
 
And in fact, he pretty much says this when they greet each other after her return. Here's the excerpt, with the first speech being Adolin:
 
"I still can't believe...I mean, you fell. I should have saved you. Shallan, I'm sorry. I ran for Father first-"
"You did what you should have," she said. "No person on that bridge would have had you rescue one of us instead of your father."
He embraced her once more. "Well, I won't let it happen again. Nothing like it. I'll protect you, Shallan."
She stiffened.
"I will make sure you aren't ever hurt." Adolin said fiercely. "I should have realized that you could be caught in an assassination attempt intended for Father. We'll have to make it so that you aren't ever in that kind of position again."
--Words of Radiance, by Brandon Sanderson. Chapter 75
 
So Adolin had no idea she was in danger, and as I said he believed himself to be between the danger and her. I don't believe him ditching her really benefits your argument anymore than it does mine, in regards to romance.
 
As for your other point, keep in mind that Adolin does tell Shallan some things he probably shouldn't (she just so happens to not be working for the enemy like Megan was), and he does attempt to get Dalinar to let Shallan venture out onto the plains to study chasmfiends, albeit off screen. Let's not pretend that Adolin is some paragon of virtue who keeps his romance and his obligations to Team Kholin separate. Also keep in mind that the only reason Dalinar does take Shallan out onto the plains is for reconnaissance without raising suspicion in the other warcamps. I'd be interested in Adolin's actions were Dalinar to completely reject the idea.

 

Do we even know about David's physical built? I thought we were quite short on descriptions here... Not that we know much about Adolin except he's an athlete. While I do agree both are willing to sacrifice themselves for love, I disagree about Adolin being driven by revenge. Adolin was driven, in WoK, by a desire to make his father well again (to heal) and to protect those he loves. In WoR, he follows essentially the same theme with the exception his main preoccupation is to fulfill his father's plan. Revenge at Sadeas comes as a distant second, which is unlike David's desire who fueled him for years.

 

We know they are both well built. I always assumed that David was muscled and well toned, and we know Adolin is (Shallan remarks on this in chapter 75 of WoR, if nowhere else). And I don't think you've hit the mark in regards to what drives Adolin. In WoK, Adolin is consumed by the notion that the Kholin name was degenerating into the mud. He's constantly nagging Dalinar about letting him prove that the Kholin name is one to be respected. Even after he comes to realize that Dalinar is right about the codes, his thoughts are still consumed by preserving the Kholin name. And when he does show major concern for his father, it's mostly in regards to the notion that his father might step down to make him the Highprince, something Adolin feels he is not ready for. I agree that Adolin deeply cares for his father (even when not discussing inheritance), but to say that his drive for the book was to see his father well again is a big stretch.
 
Then the Battle of the Tower happens, and upon survival, Adolin's thoughts are engulfed by a flaming desire for revenge. I don't think there is a single chapter in which Adolin is the PoV where he doesn't think about Sadeas. Your claim that his drive is to fulfill Dalinar's plan is correct, but you haven't dug deep enough. Why is he trying to fulfill Dalinar's plan? Revenge against Sadeas. To besmirch the Torol name. He's so eager to get his revenge, the entire book, that he lets it blind him on more than one occasion.

 

The problem I have with David is his life is rather short and he spend most it without any means. To have him be better than Tia at guessing seemed forced. I would have preferred if it were a joint effort.
 
Another one is David is not comfortable being around people. He is awkward while Adolin is a social butterfly. I personally found David more akin to Kaladin in all ways: too fast learning curves, moody and grumpy, can be impulsive when stuck with a negative emotion, disrespectful of authority, talks out of turn, failure to see the larger game, poor at social interaction, but also heroic, protector of people and sharing the tendency to be a badass when it matters. However, David has more personal energy than Kaladin  (he is more bouncy) and is more bright (I mean happy there not intelligent), in general, but those two are more similar than Adolin and David.

 

As for David being younger, isn't Adolin only 25? David is 19, so it's not a tremendous gap. Both were educated (Adolin's was higher quality but less extensive due to the male/female gap), and while Adolin spent much of his free time loafing (I count his training as his education), David spent it gunslinging and learning about Epics. So while Adolin is older, David has likely spent a larger amount of total time learning his skills you call to question. I don't find any of it harder to believe, particularly the whole being better at guessing that Tia.
 
Tia is a well educated scientist used to problem solving with a group (discussions with other NASA engineers/techs as well as discussions with other lorists). David's experience, meanwhile, is solo, in the field, learning first hand with his knowledge evolving Natural Selection style. David is more apt to guess work, and correctly guessing, than Tia is. This is shown in our society today. Take me for example. I am a very booksmart kind of guy, but I am bad at guesswork. All my experience came from books and the classroom, with classmates to bounce ideas off of. One of my classmates, meanwhile, had all of his experience come from hands-on environments. He was great at guesswork (side note: we made great partners, he'd make a guess, and I'd prove/disprove it). So to see David make better guesses than Tia makes perfect sense, because that's how it should actually be. But perhaps that conclusion comes through the lens of personal experience.
 
As for David being more like Kaladin than Adolin, I personally feel that's a moot point for me because I feel Adolin and Kaladin are crazy similar too. Really the only major thing, other than upbringing, that separates the two is that Adolin still has his father around. Young Kaladin, shown through his flashbacks in WoK, minds his father in much the same way that Adolin minds Dalinar. It's almost as if they're meant to be two sides of the same coin...    

 

I doubt so. There is nothing I yearn more than more Adolin's POV. There aren't enough of these.

 
You yearn for them because you love Adolin, because your initial exposure to him was not what I described. That's what I meant; I'm curious as to what your feelings toward him would be were your first exposure to him be his chapters all together, or if the story was told entirely through his PoV like Reckoners is through David. It's something we'll never know, though it's awesome you found a character you enjoy so much.
 
 
As I said, I find it all very interesting, and am enjoying this discussion. I look forward to your response. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I agree with Maxal here. At least, in some of it. I didn't mind David, but he definitely was not one of my favorite characters. Adolin, for sure is a better character, IMO. The weapons skill makes sense for both, I'd say. The thing about David's info gathering is a bit stretched. Yes, he spent a lot of time doing it, but how? I'm not sure how he paid for all those photos and stories as a factory worker. That's what I've never understood.

And I'll also agree about the relationships aspect. David is much more in an infatuation stage, but he is growing and falling in love. He does put Megan first, even though it's really just a crush, which isn't an awful thing, I understand that, but it's not all that great. Adolin understands that his duty is more important.

[Blightsong he/him]

Regarding how plausible it would be for someone who works in a factory to gather info regarding epics, it us totally possible. I have meet people who are basically homeless who have $3000+ dollar PCs. If someone have something that is not only a passion, but a life goal, they can do some incredible things.

[Guest]

 

 

From what I recall, much of the planning is done by Dalinar and Navani, often alone during their walks or Dalinar's episodes during a highstorm. Once Adolin is informed of the plans, he tends to try and add to them, at which point Dalinar and Navani usually wave off his suggestions. This is exactly what happens to David, and both characters have the occasional "good point, we'll revise the plan in this way..." at which point the planners continue to plan without Adolin's/David's input. Heck, I think Kaladin had more planning input in WoR than Adolin has had in both books.

 

Can you provide an example of a war counsel where Adolin is not there and Kaladin is? As far as my memory serves me, Adolin is always present and always voices his opinions. The fact Dalinar hardly ever listen to him does not change the fact Adolin does have latitude to speak up, much more than David who is more, in that regards, like Kaladin in those meetings. The new kid who is allowed to be there as a favor and is bold enough to speak up even though nobody asked him to. 

 

It is true Dalinar does often speak alone with Navani, but she is his "spouse", so I see it as normal. Whatever they discuss together is then brought up in front of their counsel which do include Adolin (and Renarin) as well as General Kahl and the King.

 

I do agree there is a difference in how Dalinar behaves with Adolin versus Kaladin, so I do get why you say (or you feel as if) Kaladin has more inputs than Adolin. He doesn't, really, but... Heck, this is a complicated one. I usually struggle to pass my point as most people don't see it the same way I do. I'd just say Dalinar has the tendency to father many people: Renarin, Elhokar and yes Kaladin, but not Adolin or so rarely. He has the duel personality of both a Highprince and a Father, but whenever he interacts with Adolin, he nearly always is in Highprin

ce-mode while other characters get his Father-mode more readily. I know, it's a hard one to picture, but that may be why you get the impression Dalinar opens up more with Kaladin with regards to his plans than to Adolin. It is not he shares more information, but he is more fatherly, softer, more comprehensive while he is more matter-of-factual with Adolin.

 

 

I also feel it's pertinent to note that while David does act on his impulses and Adolin, in general, doesn't, that doesn't mean Adolin isn't impulsive. It just means Adolin has enough fortitude to mentally stop himself from acting on his impulses in situations where he knows his father wouldn't approve. Take nearly every social interaction in WoR in which Adolin is interacting with a member of "Team Sadeas". In just about all of them, Adolin's thoughts are always impulsive and suggests that he wants to act impulsively, but he mentally interjects to keep himself from acting on those impulses. This, of course, is not always the case, such as when he is impulsive and arrogant and makes his poorly worded duel modification to Relis, or when he, you know, kills Sadeas. I'd bet money that Adolin would be more impulsive in the novels should Dalinar's approval not be an issue.

 

Oh I agree Adolin is impulsive. I never said he wasn't. He is emotionally impulsive, when riled by a strong emotion, he loses his rationality and he goes fool-hardy. What keeps him in reign more often than not though, is his obedient nature. He does not snap at Sadeas because father would not want it, because it would harm father... Each time Adolin is facing an unexpected situation: he reacts by an emotion.

 

He even has a pattern 

 

• New unexpected situations where he feels he could act, but is prevented to by his father, the law, the code, Renarin... = Anger = Every single time he interacts with Sadeas.
• New unexpected situations where he feels he can act and is allowed to act: Exhilaration, Joy, Enthusiasm = The 4 on 1 duel.
• New unexpected situations where he feels there is nothing he can do about it = Fear, Anxiety, Nervousness, Stress = Encountering Szeth, Highstorms, his father's visions, being named Highprince, discovering Urithiru.

 

It is interesting to note the last encounter with Sadeas did mingle with all three... Little wonder he blew up. He couldn't contain such a strong flow of too many conflicting emotions.

 

I agree without Dalinar, Adolin would be more impulsive. He has not learned control, yet and the only teaching he ever received in the matter is: obey to father. 

 

In that regards, I do agree both characters are impulsive, the difference being David has less boundaries than Adolin so he comes up as a unleashed firecraker. He definitely lacks Adolin's discipline and straight-forward upbringing. Perhaps he had lived a different life, Adolin would be more foolish than he currently is.

 

 

 

"A few pages" is a very conservative way to say it, considering they probably get somewhere between 2-5 chapters worth of coverage. Granted, much of it is from Shallan's point of view, or even Kaladin's, but it's still there. I can't argue with Megan being a bland character, but in David's defense Shallan is never out in the field with Adolin, unlike Megan. That said, I think you're heavily undervaluing the Adolin-Shallan relationship. 

 
Keep in mind that we're talking about Adolin here, Mr. No Commitment, Mr. I'm Not Bored With This Relationship Yet, Mr. I'll Date You Until Another Pretty Thing Walks By. In Chapter 68 of WoR Adolin tells Kaladin, about Shallan, "People think I know a lot about women. The truth is, I know how to get them - how to make them laugh, how to make them interested. I don't know how to keep them. I really want to keep this one." Now, with this in mind, let's examine the scene you are referring to when you say Adolin ditches Shallan to save Dalinar.
 
In scene, Kaladin and Dalinar have just crossed a bridge in front of the army. Adolin and Shallan are walking together across the bridge, approaching the center. Dalinar gets called back across the bridge by the Team Sadeas infiltrator. Dalinar passes Adolin and Shallan. Adolin and Shallan reach the center of the bridge as Kaladin recognizes the man who called Dalinar back across the bridge as a carpenter from Sadeas's camp, and that the man is standing next to a lever. Kaladin begins to sprint across the bridge. Adolin notices Kaladin sprinting towards him and Shallan, turns, and begins to run towards Dalinar and this threat that Kaladin has seen, though he knows not what it is. Kaladin reaches Shallan in the center and yells to Adolin to stop the carpenter at the lever. Dalinar gets distracted by the horns at some point during all this. The carpenter pulls the lever as Adolin reaches Dalinar. Given that Kaladin and Shallan fall together, Kaladin must have stopped when he reach Shallan.
 
There are a couple take aways from this. First, and this is a theory, Adolin leaves Shallan because he subconsciously fully expects Kaladin to protect her. Adolin is both better suited to fight whatever the threat is, and is closer to said threat, so it is common sense that he engages the threat while Kaladin protects people and takes them to safety. It is also somewhat shown that Kaladin was subconciously doing this when he says "one future daughter-in-law, delivered safe and sound" upon their return to the camps, implying that she's under his protection as well, plus, as I noted, he did stop when he reached her. As I've said, though, this is just a theory because it's never definitively stated in the book.
 
That said, you must also remember that Adolin had no idea that the threat was the bridge plummeting to the ground. In that very chapter, chapter 68, Kaladin and Adolin discuss what they'd do should the Assassin in White were to attack. Adolin is expecting Szeth to show up. So when he runs away from Shallan, he believes her to be safely behind him. He can stop an attacker from advancing, from reaching her. His actions may have been different had he known she could plummet to her death from the threat they were facing.
 
And in fact, he pretty much says this when they greet each other after her return. Here's the excerpt, with the first speech being Adolin:
 
"I still can't believe...I mean, you fell. I should have saved you. Shallan, I'm sorry. I ran for Father first-"
"You did what you should have," she said. "No person on that bridge would have had you rescue one of us instead of your father."
He embraced her once more. "Well, I won't let it happen again. Nothing like it. I'll protect you, Shallan."
She stiffened.
"I will make sure you aren't ever hurt." Adolin said fiercely. "I should have realized that you could be caught in an assassination attempt intended for Father. We'll have to make it so that you aren't ever in that kind of position again."
--Words of Radiance, by Brandon Sanderson. Chapter 75
 
So Adolin had no idea she was in danger, and as I said he believed himself to be between the danger and her. I don't believe him ditching her really benefits your argument anymore than it does mine, in regards to romance.
 
As for your other point, keep in mind that Adolin does tell Shallan some things he probably shouldn't (she just so happens to not be working for the enemy like Megan was), and he does attempt to get Dalinar to let Shallan venture out onto the plains to study chasmfiends, albeit off screen. Let's not pretend that Adolin is some paragon of virtue who keeps his romance and his obligations to Team Kholin separate. Also keep in mind that the only reason Dalinar does take Shallan out onto the plains is for reconnaissance without raising suspicion in the other warcamps. I'd be interested in Adolin's actions were Dalinar to completely reject the idea.

 

Well, I'd argue 2-5 chapters on 89 is not much  You are right in mentioning it: apart from their first encounter we never get Adolin's POV during those dates. In fact, each time Adolin is grouped with either Shallan or Kaladin, we have their POV and not his (or nearly each time), which mean we nearly always see Adolin from a 3rd person perspective. It is why Adolin's POV are so precious, they give us an insight on the character and they so deliciously clash other characters perspective, they are golden. He is just not what they take him for.

 

Yes, Adolin is Mr Bored, Mr I have Dated Every Single Girls in Camp, but he also is Mr I have NO Idea what to Say to Girls, Mr I don't Understand why It Never Works, Mr I Wish I could Find ONE Girl who Stick with ME... He gets a lot of bad rep for his horrible track record and he does share a large part of the blame, but he's also terribly misguided when it comes to relationships. We can talk at length as to why Adolin can't keep a girl. There are many reasons to offer. I am not sure which one fits the bill exactly except I don't think it is "I am a jerk", not that I am insinuating you are saying this, but others have elsewhere.

 

I like your analysis of the bridge scene. I haven't read it in a while, but I always thought Adolin chose to save Dalinar and not Shallan, but it is true he couldn't know she would fall. I for one sorely miss his POV following this event. 

 

It is true he shares much information with girl he barely knew simply because she made him laugh and with one poop joke, she disarms him completely. I certainly never meant to say he is a paragon of virtue, but David's entire story arc, in comparison, is about Megan. Shallan only is one part of Adolin's arc, she is not the driver for all of his actions, unlike Megan who's the driver for David. David also does more than share a few secrets to an enemy: he tells the plan to Regalia. Alright, she already knew it, so he didn't actually do much harm, but he was willing to do it: to save Megan. Now we can wonder how far Adolin-in-love would have gone for Shallan's pretty eyes, but considering his track record, I assume the second he starts to feel she may not be into him, he'll fly away like a wounded animal. After isn't it how it always end? They leave him? David, on the other hand, is remarkably persistent. He won't give up Megan, he won't take no for an answer. Adolin has been told no so often, he won't even questioned it, except this time, he'll hurt.

 

 

We know they are both well built. I always assumed that David was muscled and well toned, and we know Adolin is (Shallan remarks on this in chapter 75 of WoR, if nowhere else). And I don't think you've hit the mark in regards to what drives Adolin. In WoK, Adolin is consumed by the notion that the Kholin name was degenerating into the mud. He's constantly nagging Dalinar about letting him prove that the Kholin name is one to be respected. Even after he comes to realize that Dalinar is right about the codes, his thoughts are still consumed by preserving the Kholin name. And when he does show major concern for his father, it's mostly in regards to the notion that his father might step down to make him the Highprince, something Adolin feels he is not ready for. I agree that Adolin deeply cares for his father (even when not discussing inheritance), but to say that his drive for the book was to see his father well again is a big stretch.

 
Then the Battle of the Tower happens, and upon survival, Adolin's thoughts are engulfed by a flaming desire for revenge. I don't think there is a single chapter in which Adolin is the PoV where he doesn't think about Sadeas. Your claim that his drive is to fulfill Dalinar's plan is correct, but you haven't dug deep enough. Why is he trying to fulfill Dalinar's plan? Revenge against Sadeas. To besmirch the Torol name. He's so eager to get his revenge, the entire book, that he lets it blind him on more than one occasion.

 

A few quotes I found with a quick search.

 

What did you do, as a son, when the man you loved – the greatest man alive – started to lose his wits?

 

We have to keep an eye on the man, Renarin, Adolin thought. He knows Father is weakening. He’ll try to strike. Adolin forced himself to smile, however. He tried to be relaxed and confident for Renarin.

 

That's in Adolin's very first POV. The first time we meet him, he angst over his father, not his name or his princedom, for his father. his hero. The desire to make sure he is safe primes above all. His entire tirade in WoK was to protect Dalinar and yes also safeguard his princedom, but his father is what matters. The only reason he is even there, on the Shattered Plains, was a naive attempt to "restore" his father. 

 

The loss of Galivar had nearly crushed Dalinar, and Adolin would never forgive the Parshendis for bringing his father such pain. Never. Men fought on the Plains for different reasons, but this was why Adolin had come. Perhaps if they beat the Parshendis, his father would go back to the man he had been. Perhaps those ghostly delusions that haunted him would vanish.

 

Adolin also does not care about his inheritance, he does care about being named Highprince, worst receiving the honor riles him with anxiety. He is also pained to see his father hurt after he unknowingly severs his legs in trying to speak what he thinks must be the truth.

 

As for WoR, yes Adolin thinks abut revenge, but it is secondary to his desire to fulfill his father's plan. I'm too lazy to get extra quotes tonight, but in chapter 14, when he talks to his Blade, it is not about revenge, but Dalinar. When he is about to into the 4 on 1 duel, his thoughts are again geared towards Dalinar and his plan. He does not have one single thought for Sadeas whom he is supposed to duel right after, but he thinks of Dalinar. In the end, when Szeth is about to slay him, he thinks, again, of how he has failed Dalinar.

 

Dalinar, Dalinar, Dalinar. Yes, there is quite a lot of Sadeas, but it comes after, as the cherry at the top of the sundae.

 

 

 

As for David being younger, isn't Adolin only 25? David is 19, so it's not a tremendous gap. Both were educated (Adolin's was higher quality but less extensive due to the male/female gap), and while Adolin spent much of his free time loafing (I count his training as his education), David spent it gunslinging and learning about Epics. So while Adolin is older, David has likely spent a larger amount of total time learning his skills you call to question. I don't find any of it harder to believe, particularly the whole being better at guessing that Tia.
 
Tia is a well educated scientist used to problem solving with a group (discussions with other NASA engineers/techs as well as discussions with other lorists). David's experience, meanwhile, is solo, in the field, learning first hand with his knowledge evolving Natural Selection style. David is more apt to guess work, and correctly guessing, than Tia is. This is shown in our society today. Take me for example. I am a very booksmart kind of guy, but I am bad at guesswork. All my experience came from books and the classroom, with classmates to bounce ideas off of. One of my classmates, meanwhile, had all of his experienceee come from hands-on environments. He was great at guesswork (side note: we made great partners, he'd make a guess, and I'd prove/disprove it). So to s David make better guesses than Tia makes perfect sense, because that's how it should actually be. But perhaps that conclusion comes through the lens of personal experience.

 
As for David being more like Kaladin than Adolin, I personally feel that's a moot point for me because I feel Adolin and Kaladin are crazy similar too. Really the only major thing, other than upbringing, that separates the two is that Adolin still has his father around. Young Kaladin, shown through his flashbacks in WoK, minds his father in much the same way that Adolin minds Dalinar. It's almost as if they're meant to be two sides of the same coin...    

 

Adolin is 23, not 25. I dunno why everyone keeps making him older. He's a rather young guy, not much older than Kaladin or David for that matters. 

 

I guess David's prowess with regards to his knowledge on Epics can be justifiable. I just have a hard time figuring how he could get so much information with his limited resources. It is a hard one to swallow. You make a good case for Tia not being street smart unlike David who clearly is. However, having David be the one to guess it all was not the best plot deployment, in my opinion. It made the character too omniscient which is why I got annoyed by him initially. 

 

Kaladin and Adolin are similar? In a way... and yet they are as different as Adolin and David are. While their father/son relationship share some resemblance, Kaladin is naturally more rebellious. 

 

 

You yearn for them because you love Adolin, because your initial exposure to him was not what I described. That's what I meant; I'm curious as to what your feelings toward him would be were your first exposure to him be his chapters all together, or if the story was told entirely through his PoV like Reckoners is through David. It's something we'll never know, though it's awesome you found a character you enjoy so much.

 
 
As I said, I find it all very interesting, and am enjoying this discussion. I look forward to your response. 

 

To be fair my initial exposure to David was not negative. I liked him in Steelheart, but I dislike how he progressed in Firefight. That of course, is strictly personal. What would I think of Adolin has he been presented differently? True enough, we will never know, but right now, he's the one I want to read about.

 

I love character talk. I always jump into those, you never know when someone finds another angle.

[Edgedancer he/him]

 

I always assumed that David was muscled and well toned,

This has fairly little to do with anything but David is from Newcago, a city without sun. There's no way the guy isn't as pasty as a rabbit swimming in white paint.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

This has fairly little to do with anything but David is from Newcago, a city without sun. There's no way the guy isn't as pasty as a rabbit swimming in white paint.

Upvote for the simile.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

This has fairly little to do with anything but David is from Newcago, a city without sun. There's no way the guy isn't as pasty as a rabbit swimming in white paint.

 

Not that it matters, because your simile was awesome, but the term tone was more in regards to muscle toning, and not the tone of skin.

---

Can you provide an example of a war counsel where Adolin is not there and Kaladin is? As far as my memory serves me, Adolin is always present and always voices his opinions. The fact Dalinar hardly ever listen to him does not change the fact Adolin does have latitude to speak up, much more than David who is more, in that regards, like Kaladin in those meetings. The new kid who is allowed to be there as a favor and is bold enough to speak up even though nobody asked him to. 

 

It is true Dalinar does often speak alone with Navani, but she is his "spouse", so I see it as normal. Whatever they discuss together is then brought up in front of their counsel which do include Adolin (and Renarin) as well as General Kahl and the King.

 

I do agree there is a difference in how Dalinar behaves with Adolin versus Kaladin, so I do get why you say (or you feel as if) Kaladin has more inputs than Adolin. He doesn't, really, but... Heck, this is a complicated one. I usually struggle to pass my point as most people don't see it the same way I do. I'd just say Dalinar has the tendency to father many people: Renarin, Elhokar and yes Kaladin, but not Adolin or so rarely. He has the duel personality of both a Highprince and a Father, but whenever he interacts with Adolin, he nearly always is in Highprin

ce-mode while other characters get his Father-mode more readily. I know, it's a hard one to picture, but that may be why you get the impression Dalinar opens up more with Kaladin with regards to his plans than to Adolin. It is not he shares more information, but he is more fatherly, softer, more comprehensive while he is more matter-of-factual with Adolin.

I didn't mean to say that Kaladin had ever been involved while Adolin wasn't, but that Kaladin's input was more often utilized than Adolin's, and that his input almost seemed more valuable (which it likely would be, given his different background and upbringing, but that's beside the point).

 

Your point about Dalinar is very interesting, and I think it speaks leagues about his character. He likely treats Adolin the way he does because he views Adolin as a peer. He doesn't feel the need to be fatherly with Adolin.

 

Well, I'd argue 2-5 chapters on 89 is not much  You are right in mentioning it: apart from their first encounter we never get Adolin's POV during those dates. In fact, each time Adolin is grouped with either Shallan or Kaladin, we have their POV and not his (or nearly each time), which mean we nearly always see Adolin from a 3rd person perspective. It is why Adolin's POV are so precious, they give us an insight on the character and they so deliciously clash other characters perspective, they are golden. He is just not what they take him for.

 

Yes, Adolin is Mr Bored, Mr I have Dated Every Single Girls in Camp, but he also is Mr I have NO Idea what to Say to Girls, Mr I don't Understand why It Never Works, Mr I Wish I could Find ONE Girl who Stick with ME... He gets a lot of bad rep for his horrible track record and he does share a large part of the blame, but he's also terribly misguided when it comes to relationships. We can talk at length as to why Adolin can't keep a girl. There are many reasons to offer. I am not sure which one fits the bill exactly except I don't think it is "I am a jerk", not that I am insinuating you are saying this, but others have elsewhere.

 

I like your analysis of the bridge scene. I haven't read it in a while, but I always thought Adolin chose to save Dalinar and not Shallan, but it is true he couldn't know she would fall. I for one sorely miss his POV following this event. 

 

It is true he shares much information with girl he barely knew simply because she made him laugh and with one poop joke, she disarms him completely. I certainly never meant to say he is a paragon of virtue, but David's entire story arc, in comparison, is about Megan. Shallan only is one part of Adolin's arc, she is not the driver for all of his actions, unlike Megan who's the driver for David. David also does more than share a few secrets to an enemy: he tells the plan to Regalia. Alright, she already knew it, so he didn't actually do much harm, but he was willing to do it: to save Megan. Now we can wonder how far Adolin-in-love would have gone for Shallan's pretty eyes, but considering his track record, I assume the second he starts to feel she may not be into him, he'll fly away like a wounded animal. After isn't it how it always end? They leave him? David, on the other hand, is remarkably persistent. He won't give up Megan, he won't take no for an answer. Adolin has been told no so often, he won't even questioned it, except this time, he'll hurt.

 

I too wanted an Adolin PoV following the bridge collapse, but alas we are left wishing. 

 

As for David being willing to spill the beans to Regalia, keep in mind the context. By that point in time Megan had proven to David that he could trust her, and he merely failed to convince the others that they could as well, partially because of Prof. In addition, Prof. had made it clear that should Megan get in their way, he wouldn't hesitate to remove her. Given David's feelings, I'm not surprised he does offer the plan to Regalia. And on that note, should Dalinar place Adolin in that same situation; having lost all trust of Shallan to the point of forbidding Adolin to see her, forcibly leaving Adolin behind so he can't muck up a mission, and then noting that should Shallan get in his way he wouldn't hesitate to remove her, I don't know if Adolin would play along anymore. We've yet to see how Adolin reacts to Dalinar making a decision that he outright disagrees with (aside of inheritance), particularly a decision that endangers others that Adolin loves.

 

Someone correct my if I'm wrong regarding the Firefight stuff, I'm more knowledgeable about WoR than Reckoners.

 

A few quotes I found with a quick search.

 

What did you do, as a son, when the man you loved – the greatest man alive – started to lose his wits?

 

We have to keep an eye on the man, Renarin, Adolin thought. He knows Father is weakening. He’ll try to strike. Adolin forced himself to smile, however. He tried to be relaxed and confident for Renarin.

 

That's in Adolin's very first POV. The first time we meet him, he angst over his father, not his name or his princedom, for his father. his hero. The desire to make sure he is safe primes above all. His entire tirade in WoK was to protect Dalinar and yes also safeguard his princedom, but his father is what matters. The only reason he is even there, on the Shattered Plains, was a naive attempt to "restore" his father. 

 

The loss of Galivar had nearly crushed Dalinar, and Adolin would never forgive the Parshendis for bringing his father such pain. Never. Men fought on the Plains for different reasons, but this was why Adolin had come. Perhaps if they beat the Parshendis, his father would go back to the man he had been. Perhaps those ghostly delusions that haunted him would vanish.

 

Adolin also does not care about his inheritance, he does care about being named Highprince, worst receiving the honor riles him with anxiety. He is also pained to see his father hurt after he unknowingly severs his legs in trying to speak what he thinks must be the truth.

 

As for WoR, yes Adolin thinks abut revenge, but it is secondary to his desire to fulfill his father's plan. I'm too lazy to get extra quotes tonight, but in chapter 14, when he talks to his Blade, it is not about revenge, but Dalinar. When he is about to into the 4 on 1 duel, his thoughts are again geared towards Dalinar and his plan. He does not have one single thought for Sadeas whom he is supposed to duel right after, but he thinks of Dalinar. In the end, when Szeth is about to slay him, he thinks, again, of how he has failed Dalinar.

 

Dalinar, Dalinar, Dalinar. Yes, there is quite a lot of Sadeas, but it comes after, as the cherry at the top of the sundae.

 

I will concede this point. I am not in total agreement with you, but that doesn't really matter.

 

It's also occurred to me that we have gone completely off topic. Feel free to respond, but should I have something further to say I'll probably just PM you or maybe even create a new topic.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Blaze1616

[Guest]

 

 
Not that it matters, because your simile was awesome, but the term tone was more in regards to muscle toning, and not the tone of skin.

 

How did the different body of each character compare to each other has been part of my personal interrogation... For pure comparison purposes, I had wondered about the muscle toning of many      I mean, I merely wanted to have the right mental image 

 

So David vs Adolin? Funny as I always took David for rather skinny, but it is true he does some flippant thing in Firefight....

 

 

It's also occurred to me that we have gone completely off topic. Feel free to respond, but should I have something further to say I'll probably just PM you or maybe even create a new topic.

 

Aren't all threads bound to get off topic are given point?

 

I'll PM you later when I have more time.

[Guest]

Add me to that PM too. 

 

Sure.

[Moash]

Yeah for me I find Warbreaker most underrated. I find a decent amount of fans saying its dull and unimportant, while criticizing the magic system.

 

Elantris on the other hand is hyped even though it is quite dull next to most of Brandon's stories. Gary Stu Raoden, Mary Sue Sarene, Hrathen was the only strong character. Boring politics, boring magic system, very basic shardworld. It gets all this hype, to be fair Brandon wrote this when he was less experienced, and I'm sure the elantris sequel will be much better due to his improvements in writing. I don't get why Elantris is so popular, despite almost every Cosmere book being better than it.

[Kairos]

Under hyped- Alcatraz. This series is brilliant. It's amazing that he can write stuff this funny, while also balancing major stuff like Mistborn and SA.

Overhyped- SA. Please don't kill me. I love the world, and the magic system, just the main characters are kind of just boring. Honestly, they're like WoT characters, and that bothers me(exceptions of Lift, and Wit, obviously). I hate it when characters don't communicate for no good reason, and they just won't, even when it's really obvious that they should. Maybe they'll improve going forward. I hope so, but right now, they're nowhere near where they should be.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Under hyped- Alcatraz. This series is brilliant. It's amazing that he can write stuff this funny, while also balancing major stuff like Mistborn and SA.

Overhyped- SA. Please don't kill me. I love the world, and the magic system, just the main characters are kind of just boring. Honestly, they're like WoT characters, and that bothers me(exceptions of Lift, and Wit, obviously). I hate it when characters don't communicate for no good reason, and they just won't, even when it's really obvious that they should. Maybe they'll improve going forward. I hope so, but right now, they're nowhere near where they should be.

This is Heresy! I will have you strung up for this ! Stormlight Archive is the best there is!

[CarolaDavar she/her]

Elantris on the other hand is hyped even though it is quite dull next to most of Brandon's stories. Gary Stu Raoden, Mary Sue Sarene, Hrathen was the only strong character. Boring politics, boring magic system, very basic shardworld. It gets all this hype, to be fair Brandon wrote this when he was less experienced, and I'm sure the elantris sequel will be much better due to his improvements in writing. I don't get why Elantris is so popular, despite almost every Cosmere book being better than it.

That is all probably because that was the very firsst book he published

[PallonianFire he/him]

Underrated: Sixth of the Dusk, The Final Empire

 

Overrated: The Emperor's Soul

 

SotD is a unique setting—a drastic departure from traditional fantasy locales—and presents a character type that's new for Sanderson. TFE, I think, is his second-best paced book (after BoM) and has the most satisfying plot of any of his books.

 

As for TES, I never understood the infatuation with it. It was a decent enough story, but I couldn't empathize with the protagonist at all.

[Cold Fusion he/him]

-Reckoners is way overrated.  It's a good series, but definitely not among Sanderson's best.  

-Mistborn is fantastic, but a bit overrated.  If Sanderson's known for two things, it's finishing the wheel of time and writing the mistborn series.  

-Even though Wheel of time isn't pure Sanderson, I think it's way way way over rated.  After finishing the 14th book, I realized that it really isn't worth reading the whole series.  I should've read the first two books, read book summaries for 3-12, and then finished the last two books.

 

On the other side of things-

~Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell is completely underrated.  I'd say it's probably his best short story.

~Elantris  is definitely at least second most underrated, no one ever talks about it even though it's probably in his top 4 books.

~White Sand is pretty dang good, especially for not being a finished product.  Awesome storyline.

 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

SHADOWS OF SILENCE IN THE FORESTS OF HELL SPOILERS:

I said in my previous post that I thought this story was weak. That's not all, I also think it's also a total tease. There is almost no new information in the story and it's a no-hum tale about a stubborn small business owner with a heart of gold who moonlights as a bounty hunter. There almost no new information about the cosmere except for [a] the revelation that ghosts exist ghosts/shades can be affected by events & objects in the physical realm on Threnody and [c] silver is useful on Threnody (interesting only because it's supposedly useless/inert on Scadrial).

It may seem like this now, but I bet that this doesn't end up being true...

I've not read all of his books, but I think his most underrated book, because it didn't go down well with everyone but I loved it and thought it completed a really really tough task, was The Gathering Storm.

His most overrated so far has been Alloy of Law, but I've liked them all. Not in any rush to read Warbreaker or Elantris though based on what I've heard.

I think his BEST book, that I've read, is Word of Radiance.

Edited March 28, 2016 by IndigoAjah