Just finished WoK - some questions and thoughts

[Levian]

So after finishing the book today I can safely declare it one of my favourite books of all time. It has me so intrigued. But near the end, each chapter just kept adding more questions in my mind. 

 

First off I had better say, whole book spoilers ahead. And sorry in advance, this turned out to be a much larger wall of text than I had planned. Oh, and this is my first thread here, I'm hoping to have some great discussions on what looks to be an amazing book series!

 

Ok, now to start:

 

1. The Heralds

 

In the beginning of the book we are told of the Heralds and how they have some duty, possibly to keep Odium (I can only assume it is Odium, even though I know nothing of who he really is) bound in some way. It is pointed out by Jezrien that the Heralds "chose this fate willingly", although we don't really know what this duty - possibly the Oathpact? - is (or at least I don't, a lot of people here seem really knowledgeable). What we do know is that the Heralds appear during Desolations to help fight, and are bound by oath or honour to return somewhere to be tortured until the next Desolation. 

 

Why are they being tortured, and where are they returning to? It seems that they were ordinary people once, from when Kelek says "They see us as divinities", and the fact that they willingly chose their fate. So who did they make this oath to and what was the purpose?

 

Kelek uses the word "Almighty" while cursing, so I'm wondering if possibly the Almighty is already dead at this point, as it doesn't say any specific time in Dalinar's vision when he may have died. The Almighty also said in Dalinar's vision that their situation is dire without the Dawnblades. I'm assuming the Dawnblades are the weapons that the Radiants used, and like many people think that Szeth has one of these blades, and it is how he has his abilities without bonding with a Spren.

 

And my biggest question - where are they now? I have seen it mentioned that they may be roaming the world, living out lives as regular people. But why haven't they been helping in any way, posing as scholars? Providing knowledge of the past throughout the ages, making sure that the Desolations aren't forgotten, preparing the world for a possible future Desolation. They certainly can't be dead, at least not from some of the things I've read on these forums. Which makes me wonder - will they rise up and help mankind in the Final Desolation?

 

2. The Voidbringers / The Desolation

 

So, Shallan believes that the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, and that possibly beasts fought alongside them. We at least know that the beasts were real for sure from the introduction. I was torn on the thought of the Parshendi being the Voidbringers though.

 

While the introduction with Kelek does mention that there were bodies of non-humans around, and orange blood is on the ground mixed with some other colours of blood. This seems to indicate that the Parshendi were there for the battle, but it doesn't mention them specifically - which you think it would if they were the main, or one of the main enemies during Desolations. On a side note, anyone know where the information about the Parshendi "forms" on the Stormlight Archive Wiki come from? (http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Parshendi) I don't remember reading anything about that at all. 

 

Despite them being present during Desolations, I don't think they are the Voidbringers. I mean, what Jasnah and Shallan are discussing, so many Parshmen everywhere and nobody giving it a second thought, it could cause some serious damage if they all turned hostile at once. But from what we see of the Parshendi, while they are formidable warriors, they aren't some horrible nearly unstoppable force of destruction. On top of this, they seem to show a lot of respect to Kaladin when he reveals his abilities as a Surgebinder, they fight honourably by not really attacking Kaladin's wounded, saluting to Dalinar, and not persueing them on their march back to camp even though they could have jumped the chasm and easily taken down the remaining forces.

 

I personally think they were on the side of the Radiants and men, possibly created to help man in a similar vein as the Radiants - good workers in times between Desolations to help rebuild, and strong warriors to help fight during Desolations. I realize I didn't really ask any questions here so I suppose I'm just asking what everybody's opinion on this is.

 

3. General questions on the last few chapters

 

King Taravangian

 

So it has been revealed that King Taravangian is Szeth's secret owner and behind all the deaths of kings and other important people. What he has done clearly seems evil - however, when you think about how he revealed that he had Szeth do all that so he could take charge and unite the lands, it seems that Dalinar's visions should have been given to King Tarav.

 

The King does seem to be a kind person throughout the entire book, and even him killing deathly ill and other people from the streets who "won't be missed" he could be seen as a good guy. But after seeing the brutal murders he orders Szeth to do he seems very sinister. We don't really know if he is trying to unite people to survive the Desolation, or if he is working (possibly unintentionally, being manipulated?) to destroying everything and making it easier for the Desolation to destroy everything. But when you think about it, if he is trying to unite the world in preparation for the Desolation, he is accomplishing it much quicker than Dalinar is or can. After all, Dalinar is attempting to legitimately unite the Alethi princes, which will clearly take a long time, let alone uniting the rest of the world.

 

The Almighty

 

The biggest question is, when did he die? The message Dalinar received didn't reveal any specifics on this, and the Almighty also said he wasn't sure if anybody would even receive the message. From what I said earlier talking about the Heralds, is it possible that the Heralds swore service to the Almighty in the beginning, then He died some time after that, but before the Heralds abandoned their duty? He mentions that it may be possible to get Odium to choose a Champion, and it is implied that Dalinar and mankind will have a Champion (or possibly more than one, if they form their own Radiants and possibly new Heralds, or if the Heralds step up again).

 

Now, my first thought is Szeth and Kaladin. It seems obvious they will clash at some point, and if it turns out that King Taravangian is working to bring mankind down (intentionally or not, and this is just speculation on my part) then Szeth may be Odium's champion, and Kaladin mankind's Champion. Even if Szeth is defeated by Kaladin before any final confrontation, I don't think Kaladin will take his Shardblade/Dawnshard. Kaladin is a master of the spear and shows a dislike for Shardblades. I don't think he would take up a weapon he knows nothing of using when he is already so skilled with the spear, and if it is a Dawnshard, and if Dawnshards do grant Szeth his abilities, that is just another reason Kaladin doesn't need the weapon, having already bonded with Syl for his own abilities.

 

Talenel

 

WIth the appearance if Talenel in the last chapter raises some serious questions. When he collapses the first thought is that he is dead, followed closely by "what the hell happened?". He states that the Desolation has come, and he has failed. What has he failed? Has he abandoned his duty, or did he simply die? A lot of people have pointed out that Taln can't be dead though, because his sword would have vanished. So if he isn't dead, what happened to him, and why is he so worn down and exhausted enough to collapse, and again, what is his failure? The biggest question that remains though is what happens now that there is only one Herold who hasn't abandoned his duty, if he is even capable of fighting? Is he no longer able to do his part in holding back Odium?

 

So, I realize that not everything I said is really a question, so I suppose in those cases I'm just asking people's opinions and thought on what happened. I've browsed these forums briefly before posting but didn't search everything, and after finding threads that lightly touched  on some questions I had I figured it'd be better to make my own thread. No doubt while writing this massive Wall'o'text I forgot a lot of other questions I had, things I was thinking about, but this will do for now! 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Levian

[Windrunner he/him]

Welcome to the forums! You've got a lot of good questions, and I've got a few answers. I'm not going to provide quotes on everything, as that would take forever, but if you'd like to see the specific wording of something, feel free to ask and I'd be happy to help.

 

Why are they being tortured, and where are they returning to? It seems that they were ordinary people once, from when Kelek says "They see us as divinities", and the fact that they willingly chose their fate. So who did they make this oath to and what was the purpose?

I've always presumed that they're being tortured for the exact reason they quit, Odium hopes to wear them down enough so that they break the Oathpact. Personally, I think that they're returning to Braize, another planet in Roshar's system where Odium is currently located. I agree that they were ordinary people, there are mentions that they were set impossible tasks to accomplish on something known as "Proving Day". I imagine the took up the burden for the Shard Honor (the Almighty) to try to defend mankind.

 

Kelek uses the word "Almighty" while cursing, so I'm wondering if possibly the Almighty is already dead at this point, as it doesn't say any specific time in Dalinar's vision when he may have died. The Almighty also said in Dalinar's vision that their situation is dire without the Dawnblades. I'm assuming the Dawnblades are the weapons that the Radiants used, and like many people think that Szeth has one of these blades, and it is how he has his abilities without bonding with a Spren.

The Almighty was still alive when the Heralds quit. A slight correction, Honor said they were in trouble without the "Dawnshards," it's a fairly common misconception but Dawnblades aren't a real thing. I've no idea what the Dawnshards are, but I do think that the Honorblades were the weapons of the Heralds. Personally, I'm skeptical on the whole, "Szeth gets his powers from his sword theory," but I've been wrong before.

 

And my biggest question - where are they now? I have seen it mentioned that they may be roaming the world, living out lives as regular people. But why haven't they been helping in any way, posing as scholars? Providing knowledge of the past throughout the ages, making sure that the Desolations aren't forgotten, preparing the world for a possible future Desolation. They certainly can't be dead, at least not from some of the things I've read on these forums. Which makes me wonder - will they rise up and help mankind in the Final Desolation?

This is the million dollar question, isn't it? They're still ageless from what I understand, although they may be able to die, I'm uncertain. It's almost certain that Baxil's Mistress, the one who destroys art is Shalash, who has seemingly turned on the attribute of creativity she once represented. And if as many postulate:

WoR Spoilers

Darkness truly is Nalan, then he has become hypervigilent to his ideal of justice, but only selectively, killing nascent Radiants to try to stop a new Desolation.

Maybe some will be redeemed? It seems premature, but they will definitely play a major part.

 

On a side note, anyone know where the information about the Parshendi "forms" on the Stormlight Archive Wiki come from? (http://stormlightarc.../wiki/Parshendi I don't remember reading anything about that at all.

It's information from Words of Radiance readings. I've archived all the readings we have here. Also, I'm biased because I write for it, but the Coppermind is typically better cited and more accurate. I've run across some disturbing inaccuracies while browsing on the SA Wiki.

 

I personally think they were on the side of the Radiants and men, possibly created to help man in a similar vein as the Radiants - good workers in times between Desolations to help rebuild, and strong warriors to help fight during Desolations. I realize I didn't really ask any questions here so I suppose I'm just asking what everybody's opinion on this is.

I like the Parshendi, and really hope that they're on the side of good. That being said, Jasnah is rarely wrong, so she's probably onto something. I don't think that she has the whole answer yet.

 

The King does seem to be a kind person throughout the entire book, and even him killing deathly ill and other people from the streets who "won't be missed" he could be seen as a good guy. But after seeing the brutal murders he orders Szeth to do he seems very sinister. We don't really know if he is trying to unite people to survive the Desolation, or if he is working (possibly unintentionally, being manipulated?) to destroying everything and making it easier for the Desolation to destroy everything. But when you think about it, if he is trying to unite the world in preparation for the Desolation, he is accomplishing it much quicker than Dalinar is or can. After all, Dalinar is attempting to legitimately unite the Alethi princes, which will clearly take a long time, let alone uniting the rest of the world.

Something you may not know is that Taravangian has visited the Old Magic, and the gift he received is a fluctuating intelligence. Some days he's average, other days a genius, and still others a moron. That's likely why you see those discrepancies. I think Taravangian is trying to do good in what he's doing, but I feel like he may be going about it the wrong way, or maybe at least not the way Honor would have him do it.

 

 

WIth the appearance if Talenel in the last chapter raises some serious questions. When he collapses the first thought is that he is dead, followed closely by "what the hell happened?". He states that the Desolation has come, and he has failed. What has he failed? Has he abandoned his duty, or did he simply die? A lot of people have pointed out that Taln can't be dead though, because his sword would have vanished. So if he isn't dead, what happened to him, and why is he so worn down and exhausted enough to collapse, and again, what is his failure? The biggest question that remains though is what happens now that there is only one Herold who hasn't abandoned his duty, if he is even capable of fighting? Is he no longer able to do his part in holding back Odium?

I don't know what happened to Taln. But he is alive still, he's confirmed to have a POV in an interlude in WoR. He also will be the subject of a flashback book, like Kaladin was in TWoK.

Hopefully that was somewhat helpful! Any other questions?

EDIT:

This is what not ninja-ing looks like.

Figured I didn't want multiple people all typing out the same answers to one set of questions if I could help it. Edited December 2, 2013 by Windrunner

[hoser he/him]

This is what not ninja-ing looks like.

[Shardlet he/him]

1) Heralds- Just by way of clarification, it is 'Dawnshards' rather than 'Dawnblades'.  It is unclear what their nature is.  It was initially thought that they were a flavor of shardblades, like the Honorblades (which are/were carried by the Heralds), but it seems that the community is largely moving away from that idea.  As to where the Heralds are now, you have seen a number of them.  Brandon has said that each of the Heralds was either mentioned or seen in WoK.  You will find many ideas regarding where they turn up.

 

2) The info on the forms comes from a reading from WoR that is a Parshendi POV.  If you are interested, you can read a transcription here.

 

3) While we are not sure when the Almighty died, most of us believe that the Almighty was alive during the time shown in each of Dalinar's storm visions except for the last one.  This would mean that the Almighty died sometime after the Recreance.

 

As to Taln, those are million dollar questions which we will not know the answers to any of which until March,

[Gloom he/him]

 

But when you think about it, if he is trying to unite the world in preparation for the Desolation, he is accomplishing it much quicker than Dalinar is or can.

 

I have to take exception to this statement.

 

Taravangian has certainly made an impact, and you aren't the first to promote that he has smoothed the way towards a united Roshar, but we have no evidence that he is actually accomplishing his supposed goal. We see the difficulties that Dalinar faces yes, but we don't see the results of the chaos left by Taravangians actions, so some people assume that it doesn't exist. I'm quite certain we will learn more of the chaos that ensued in WoR as a result of the actions that Szeth was ordered to take. Unless Taravangian already has leaders primed to take control of each of these nations, their will be a power vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum. I personally expect that the results will be an increase in warfare, both civil and amongst neighboring nations.

[Levian]

I've always presumed that they're being tortured for the exact reason they quit, Odium hopes to wear them down enough so that they break the Oathpact. Personally, I think that they're returning to Braize, another planet in Roshar's system where Odium is currently located. I agree that they were ordinary people, there are mentions that they were set impossible tasks to accomplish on something known as "Proving Day". I imagine the took up the burden for the Shard Honor (the Almighty) to try to defend mankind.

 

 

 

I've got to say, that left me with even more questions than when I started, haha! I didn't word it well enough I see. What I'm wondering is what is the Oathpact? What did they agree to? It sounds -in a way- similar to the Old Magic, where they made an agreement where they get something, but are tortured as a result. I'm sure the Old Magic has nothing to do with it, just stating the similarities. So what do they get, in return for agreeing to be eternally tortured? Eternal life, and the ability to come to Roshar every Desolation to help turn the tides? 

 

Also, how do we know of this Braize and any other possible planets? I don't remember seeing them mentioned anywhere, unless they are in the link you sent me on reading from the next book.

 

 

The Almighty was still alive when the Heralds quit. A slight correction, Honor said they were in trouble without the "Dawnshards," it's a fairly common misconception but Dawnblades aren't a real thing. I've no idea what the Dawnshards are, but I do think that the Honorblades were the weapons of the Heralds. Personally, I'm skeptical on the whole, "Szeth gets his powers from his sword theory," but I've been wrong before.

 

 

 

While we are not sure when the Almighty died, most of us believe that the Almighty was alive during the time shown in each of Dalinar's storm visions except for the last one.  This would mean that the Almighty died sometime after the Recreance.

 

 

 

So, this leaves me with a few more questions. I'm assuming a lot of this information comes from other books I haven't yet read (So far other than WoK I've only read the first three of the Mistborn trilogy). Who is the Almighty? I keep hearing talk of Honor and Cultivation. I'll admit I'm not very familiar with Sanderson's Cosmere, even after having read Mistborn. I suppose he was - like Sazed - just a man who managed to get a Shard and now is essentially a God. But what is his purpose? I'm assuming like Ruin and Preservation, Honor and Odium clashed, were opposing forces (which leaves me confused about Cultivation). But it seems it may have been the duties of the Heralds to hold back Odium, so it makes me wonder what Honor / The Almighty's purpose is.

 

If he really did die in the present, in between Dalinar's visions and not previously, thousands of years ago, that has some some pretty heavy implications. I don't know if we know what his purpose was just yet, but it must have been something important, and I'm dreading to see the consequences. 

 

Also, I'm not sure if I meant to say "Dawnblades" or not, I may have just read Darnshards and re-arranged the wording in my head somehow So to prevent further confusion, there are two types of blades. Honorblades and Shardblades? I have some other questions about the magic system, which it seems - from this book alone at least - we don't really know much about, but again I've seen people on here with a seemingly in depth knowledge of things I don't think were revealed in this book. Those are questions for another time though, perhaps another thread. 

 

This is the million dollar question, isn't it? They're still ageless from what I understand, although they may be able to die, I'm uncertain. It's almost certain that Baxil's Mistress, the one who destroys art is Shalash, who has seemingly turned on the attribute of creativity she once represented. Maybe some will be redeemed? It seems premature, but they will definitely play a major part.

 

It seems I missed quite a lot of things on my first reading. There were many instances of characters I didn't understand but I just wrote them off until I could hear further details - which never happened lol. I'm also not sure if I just wasn't paying enough attention but I don't remember hearing the names of more than a couple of the Heralds. Maybe it was in the Prelude, I'm not sure, but where do we know all these names from, as well as how to identify them based off their actions? Even if the names had appeared in the book, I don't think we've heard much about any of them, other than people using their names as curse words or in prayers. 

 

I like the Parshendi, and really hope that they're on the side of good. That being said, Jasnah is rarely wrong, so she's probably onto something. I don't think that she has the whole answer yet.

 

 I like them as well. They have an air of mystery about them and they definitely don't seem like a crazy evil force of destruction. Here's hoping something good happens with them!

 

 

Something you may not know is that Taravangian has visited the Old Magic, and the gift he received is a fluctuating intelligence. Some days he's average, other days a genius, and still others a moron. That's likely why you see those discrepancies. I think Taravangian is trying to do good in what he's doing, but I feel like he may be going about it the wrong way, or maybe at least not the way Honor would have him do it.

 

 Yea I knew about him visiting the Old Magic. I guess what I'm saying is throughout the whole book I liked him in general. He seems like a good person, different than the Alethi princes, actually caring about people. And then out of nowhere he is shown to be behind these brutal murders. If it were just that I could probably forgive him and hope he manages to make some good come out of it, but after seeing that he wants Dalinar killed, I don't think I like him anymore. Wanting one of the only honorable Alethi princes dead, when he knows he is trying to unite the rest of the princes. I feel like if he really wanted to unite the world, he should at least seek out an alliance with Dalinar and the Alethi kingdom first. So I can't help but think now that Taravangian will end up being a force of destruction, with him thinking he is doing good, but he is possibly being manipulated by Odium, similar to what Ruin would do.

 

I don't know what happened to Taln. But he is alive still, he's confirmed to have a POV in an interlude in WoR. He also will be the subject of a flashback book, like Kaladin was in TWoK.

 

 

Oh, well that's good. Thinking that the Almighty had died, and with no more Heralds dedicated to their Oath would put thinks in a pretty dire state. I'm curious to see where this leads, if he end up leading people or teaching someone (please be Kaladin) possibly to become their Champion, or if the people either don't believe who he is, or reject him outright from their teachings that the Heralds abandoned them.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I've got to say, that left me with even more questions than when I started, haha! I didn't word it well enough I see. What I'm wondering is what is the Oathpact? What did they agree to? It sounds -in a way- similar to the Old Magic, where they made an agreement where they get something, but are tortured as a result. I'm sure the Old Magic has nothing to do with it, just stating the similarities. So what do they get, in return for agreeing to be eternally tortured? Eternal life, and the ability to come to Roshar every Desolation to help turn the tides?

 

I don't think the Oathpact was between the Heralds and the Almighty, it is implied to be between Honor, Odium, and possibly Cultivation. The Heralds were a part of the Pact yes, but they act on behalf of one of the members, namely Honor.

 

Also, how do we know of this Braize and any other possible planets? I don't remember seeing them mentioned anywhere, unless they are in the link you sent me on reading from the next book.

 

We found out about Braize in this interview.

 

So, this leaves me with a few more questions. I'm assuming a lot of this information comes from other books I haven't yet read (So far other than WoK I've only read the first three of the Mistborn trilogy). Who is the Almighty? I keep hearing talk of Honor and Cultivation. I'll admit I'm not very familiar with Sanderson's Cosmere, even after having read Mistborn. I suppose he was - like Sazed - just a man who managed to get a Shard and now is essentially a God. But what is his purpose? I'm assuming like Ruin and Preservation, Honor and Odium clashed, were opposing forces (which leaves me confused about Cultivation). But it seems it may have been the duties of the Heralds to hold back Odium, so it makes me wonder what Honor / The Almighty's purpose is.

 

I would recommend doing some reading in the Coppermind wiki, the Shard article would be a good start.

 

If he really did die in the present, in between Dalinar's visions and not previously, thousands of years ago, that has some some pretty heavy implications. I don't know if we know what his purpose was just yet, but it must have been something important, and I'm dreading to see the consequences.

Actually, what Shardlet was trying to say isn't that Honor died in the present, which we know to be false, but rather that he died in between the times depicted in Dalinar's visions.

 

Also, I'm not sure if I meant to say "Dawnblades" or not, I may have just read Darnshards and re-arranged the wording in my head somehow So to prevent further confusion, there are two types of blades. Honorblades and Shardblades? I have some other questions about the magic system, which it seems - from this book alone at least - we don't really know much about, but again I've seen people on here with a seemingly in depth knowledge of things I don't think were revealed in this book. Those are questions for another time though, perhaps another thread.

Brandon has said that we have seen three kinds of blade so far. We know the honorblades are one kind but we don't know what the distinction between the other two are.

You are correct in saying we don't find out much about the magic systems in the book but we do have a wealth of knowledge about them that has been gleaned from interviews.

 

 

It seems I missed quite a lot of things on my first reading. There were many instances of characters I didn't understand but I just wrote them off until I could hear further details - which never happened lol. I'm also not sure if I just wasn't paying enough attention but I don't remember hearing the names of more than a couple of the Heralds. Maybe it was in the Prelude, I'm not sure, but where do we know all these names from, as well as how to identify them based off their actions? Even if the names had appeared in the book, I don't think we've heard much about any of them, other than people using their names as curse words or in prayers.

Brandon has said that all of Heralds are either mentioned/named or appear on screen in WoK. A list can be found here. As for identifying them through their actions, we have been using the divine attributes ascribed to them/their orders in the Ars Arcanum (i.e. Jezrien/Windrunners - Leading/Protecting).

 

 Yea I knew about him visiting the Old Magic. I guess what I'm saying is throughout the whole book I liked him in general. He seems like a good person, different than the Alethi princes, actually caring about people. And then out of nowhere he is shown to be behind these brutal murders. If it were just that I could probably forgive him and hope he manages to make some good come out of it, but after seeing that he wants Dalinar killed, I don't think I like him anymore. Wanting one of the only honorable Alethi princes dead, when he knows he is trying to unite the rest of the princes. I feel like if he really wanted to unite the world, he should at least seek out an alliance with Dalinar and the Alethi kingdom first. So I can't help but think now that Taravangian will end up being a force of destruction, with him thinking he is doing good, but he is possibly being manipulated by Odium, similar to what Ruin would do.

Well Dalinar's honorableness is a more recent development in his life. Taravangian could well be operating under the assumption Dalinar is still the "Blackthorn". If so it would be prudent of him to eliminate him because a united Alethkar under the Blackthorn would not be good for Taravangian's plans for saving the world.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Indubitable

[Moogle]

Yea I knew about him visiting the Old Magic. I guess what I'm saying is throughout the whole book I liked him in general. He seems like a good person, different than the Alethi princes, actually caring about people. And then out of nowhere he is shown to be behind these brutal murders. If it were just that I could probably forgive him and hope he manages to make some good come out of it, but after seeing that he wants Dalinar killed, I don't think I like him anymore. Wanting one of the only honorable Alethi princes dead, when he knows he is trying to unite the rest of the princes. I feel like if he really wanted to unite the world, he should at least seek out an alliance with Dalinar and the Alethi kingdom first. So I can't help but think now that Taravangian will end up being a force of destruction, with him thinking he is doing good, but he is possibly being manipulated by Odium, similar to what Ruin would do.

 

The Alethi are constantly fighting each other. Elhokar is a weak king. Taravangian has no idea that Dalinar has been having visions of the Almighty and wants to unite Alethkar to help against the upcoming Desolation. He knows that the Blackthorn is trying to take power and little else, except perhaps rumors that Dalinar has visions and is going crazy. I don't think I can blame him for acting the way he is with his limited information. Dalinar was not a saint when Gavilar and him conquered Alethkar.

 

At a guess to Taravangian's motivations, I'd say he's trying to create a gigantic power vacuum everywhere so he can take over the entire world. He's not trying to form alliances, he's trying to become a benevolent tyrant. He's certainly not a mustache-twirling supervillain who kills people for the heck of it. He seems to genuinely feel guilty over the people he bleeds out, but believes it to be completely necessary to save the world.

 

I expect over the next few books, we'll see Taravangian consolidate his power, start conquering countries (or have countries beg to have him take them over) and officially come out as Emperor of the World and have it all break apart with Szeth killing him. Or not. Honor is gone, and it's not like Honor was able to stop Odium anyways. By the standards of the world, it's not like he can even be blamed by ordinary people if he tries to take over the entirety of Roshar. The only reason Gavilar (and Elhokar) are in positions of leadership is because they started a war and conquered all of the other highprinces. Nohadon did the same thing. It's something I think people forget when condemning Taravangian.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Moogle

[Levian]

I don't think the Oathpact was between the Heralds and the Almighty, it is implied to be between Honor, Odium, and possibly Cultivation. The Heralds were a part of the Pact yes, but they act on behalf of one of the members, namely Honor.

 

 

 

That makes sense to me, but it still leaves me with the question - what did the Heralds agree to? They obviously agreed to being tortured in between every Desolation, but what is the other side of the agreement? I'm assuming there isn't an answer for this just yet, but it's still a question that's burning in my mind.

 

 

We found out about Braize in this interview.

 

 

Thanks for the link. On a bit of a tangent, in the Q&A it says that there are currently two shards on Roshar. Honor is dead, so he isn't one. Odium is on Braize, so he isn't one either. That leaves Cultivation and a fourth shard? I can only assume that the Nightwatcher is the fourth shard on Roshar. 

 

Actually, what Shardlet was trying to say isn't that Honor died in the present, which we know to be false, but rather that he died in between the times depicted in Dalinar's visions.

 

 

 

Okay that makes a bit more sense to me now. I'm still left wondering what his duties were though, and if he was counteracting Odium like Ruin and Preservation. Maybe as his name Honor implies, after he died men because less honorable? Jasnah mentioned something along the lines of intellect (and possibly honor?) once being more valued than strength in battle. I doubt its as simple as that though. Also, with Honor dead, where might his shard be, and is it able to be claimed by someone to take up his job? I'm sure this has been speculated before, but I would assume the answer is yes, and will occur most likely in the last book. And I nominate Dalinar for this position!

 

Brandon has saidthat we have seen three kinds of blade so far. We know the honorblades are one kind but we don't know what the distinction between the other two are.

 

 

 

This is really interesting to me, because the only ones I've seen outright are the blades the Heralds used (Honorblades?) and the blades used by mankind, the Shardblades - which I also assume are the blades used by the Radiants. So that leaves me wondering, what is the third type of blade, and where might we have seen a glimpse of it? Szeth perhaps? 

 

You are correct in saying we don't find out much about the magic systems in the book but we do have a wealth of knowledge about them that has been gleaned from interviews. Brandon has said that all of Heralds are either mentioned/named or appear on screen in WoK. A list can be found here. As for identifying them through their actions, we have been using the divine attributes ascribed to them/their orders in the Ars Arcanum (i.e. Jezrien/Windrunners - Leading/Protecting).

 

 

 

Ah that's where I was confused. I saw the Ars Arcanum but I didn't know that the names beside the number were representing a Herald. I also didn't know that the Essence was. So this leaves me wondering, since each one has a Soulcasting property, could each order of the Radiants Soulcast as well as Surgebind? I would assume not, and that a person either had the ability to do one or the other, as we've seen that Soulcasters can manage to work with any of the 10 properties.

[Levian]

The Alethi are constantly fighting each other. Elhokar is a weak king. Taravangian has no idea that Dalinar has been having visions of the Almighty and wants to unite Alethkar to help against the upcoming Desolation. He knows that the Blackthorn is trying to take power and little else, except perhaps rumors that Dalinar has visions and is going crazy. I don't think I can blame him for acting the way he is with his limited information. Dalinar was not a saint when Gavilar and him conquered Alethkar.

 

At a guess to Taravangian's motivations, I'd say he's trying to create a gigantic power vacuum everywhere so he can take over the entire world. He's not trying to form alliances, he's trying to become a benevolent tyrant. He's certainly not a mustache-twirling supervillain who kills people for the heck of it. He seems to genuinely feel guilty over the people he bleeds out, but believes it to be completely necessary to save the world.

 

I expect over the next few books, we'll see Taravangian consolidate his power, start conquering countries (or have countries beg to have him take them over) and officially come out as Emperor of the World and have it all break apart with Szeth killing him. Or not. Honor is gone, and it's not like Honor was able to stop Odium anyways. By the standards of the world, it's not like he can even be blamed by ordinary people if he tries to take over the entirety of Roshar. The only reason Gavilar (and Elhokar) are in positions of leadership is because they started a war and conquered all of the other highprinces. Nohadon did the same thing. It's something I think people forget when condemning Taravangian.

 

Put that way, it does make a lot more sense to me. When you said he's trying to become a benevolent tyrant, it reminded me of Dalinar's vision, when he figures out that King Nohadon unites the world by force before writing his book. Oh, figures as I write this I realize I didn't read your last sentence, where you said the same thing! Well, I suppose I can always hope that Dalinar realizes at some point what Taravangain is doing and compares it himself to King Nohadon, and possibly teams up with him once he unites the Alethi princes. 

[Moogle]

Ah that's where I was confused. I saw the Ars Arcanum but I didn't know that the names beside the number were representing a Herald. I also didn't know that the Essence was. So this leaves me wondering, since each one has a Soulcasting property, could each order of the Radiants Soulcast as well as Surgebind? I would assume not, and that a person either had the ability to do one or the other, as we've seen that Soulcasters can manage to work with any of the 10 properties.

 

Jasnah says at the end of the book that only two Orders of the Knights Radiant could Soulcast, but we do know there are Soulcasting fabrials.

 

The way powers work (this information comes from interviews) is that there are 10 Surges, and every Radiant had access to two based on their Order. Kaladin is a Windrunner, so he gets Gravity and Pressure. Shallan and Jasnah both have the Transformation Surge, which lets them Soulcast. Both of them also have an extra Surge different from the other (since Jasnah says they're in different Orders). Jasnah apparently has the Transportation Surge (which lets her do a ranged Soulcasting, and maybe teleport?) and Shallan the Light Surge (which I have no idea what it lets her do, except perhaps illusions?).

Edited December 2, 2013 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Thanks for the link. On a bit of a tangent, in the Q&A it says that there are currently two shards on Roshar. Honor is dead, so he isn't one. Odium is on Braize, so he isn't one either. That leaves Cultivation and a fourth shard? I can only assume that the Nightwatcher is the fourth shard on Roshar.

 

The "two shards" are Honor and Cultivation. Honor still counts even if it was splintered. The "there's a fourth shard on Roshar theory" is one that crops up every so often but there have only been three shards to exist on Roshar (as shards). The Nightwatcher is heavily implied to be Cultivation.

 

Okay that makes a bit more sense to me now. I'm still left wondering what his duties were though, and if he was counteracting Odium like Ruin and Preservation. Maybe as his name Honor implies, after he died men because less honorable? Jasnah mentioned something along the lines of intellect (and possibly honor?) once being more valued than strength in battle. I doubt its as simple as that though. Also, with Honor dead, where might his shard be, and is it able to be claimed by someone to take up his job? I'm sure this has been speculated before, but I would assume the answer is yes, and will occur most likely in the last book. And I nominate Dalinar for this position!

 

Shards don't really have "duties" they are beings of incredible power, they can do whatever they want to. Theoretically some one could take up Honor, but it would take some effort in un-splintering it first. Dalinar is a popular choice for its new holder, if he survives his encounter with Szeth that is.

 

This is really interesting to me, because the only ones I've seen outright are the blades the Heralds used (Honorblades?) and the blades used by mankind, the Shardblades - which I also assume are the blades used by the Radiants. So that leaves me wondering, what is the third type of blade, and where might we have seen a glimpse of it? Szeth perhaps?

 

Szeth's blade is a common theory for the "third kind of blade". But there is a segment of the fandom that believes it to actually be Jezrien's honorblade.

 

Ah that's where I was confused. I saw the Ars Arcanum but I didn't know that the names beside the number were representing a Herald. I also didn't know that the Essence was. So this leaves me wondering, since each one has a Soulcasting property, could each order of the Radiants Soulcast as well as Surgebind? I would assume not, and that a person either had the ability to do one or the other, as we've seen that Soulcasters can manage to work with any of the 10 properties.

 

Keep in mind that that list doesn't actually name the Heralds, those are numbers based on the names of the Heralds, i.e. Jezrien/Jezerezeh-Jes, Nalan-Nan, and so on. And no, only two orders are able to Soulcast via Surgebinding (by way of the Transformation Surge).

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Indubitable

[Levian]

Jasnah says at the end of the book that only two Orders of the Knights Radiant could Soulcast, but we do know there are Soulcasting fabrials.

 

The way powers work (this information comes from interviews) is that there are 10 Surges, and every Radiant had access to two based on their Order. Kaladin is a Windrunner, so he gets Gravity and Pressure. Shallan and Jasnah both have the Transformation Surge, which lets them Soulcast. Both of them also have an extra Surge different from the other (since Jasnah says they're in different Orders). Jasnah apparently has the Transportation Surge (which lets her do a ranged Soulcasting, and maybe teleport?) and Shallan the Light Surge (which I have no idea what it lets her do, except perhaps illusions?).

 

This part is really interesting to me, I'm always curious about how the magic systems work. So it seems that Kaladin has the same abilities as Szeth, except we haven't seen him use the Basic Lashing yet. I'm guessing the information about Jasnah and Shallan comes from readings of the next book? 

 

Shards don't really have "duties" they are beings of incredible power, they can do whatever they want to. Theoretically some one could take up Honor, but it would take some effort in un-splintering it first. Dalinar is a popular choice for its new holder, if he survives his encounter with Szeth that is.

 

 

They may not have specific duties, but the shards (or people holding the shards?) clearly each do something. Odium seems hell bent on destroying things, I'm not really sure about Cultivation,  but I would assume s/he/it is behind the life on Roshar, possibly helping things evolve to survive the Highstorms, and as other people have suggested possibly as the Nightwatcher. This leaves me wondering what Honor was doing. I highly doubt he just sat around doing nothing, and since he made the Honorpact with Odium it seems as if he had something to do with either actively or passively countering him. It makes me wonder what he was doing, as in most fantasy series the God-like figure tends to not intervene directly, but is usually behind either giving people their magical abilities, choosing a champion every so often, etc etc. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

This part is really interesting to me, I'm always curious about how the magic systems work. So it seems that Kaladin has the same abilities as Szeth, except we haven't seen him use the Basic Lashing yet. I'm guessing the information about Jasnah and Shallan comes from readings of the next book? 

 

Sort of, Kaladin is on the path to becoming a Windrunner which means he can manipulate the Surges of Pressure and Gravity.  While Szeth has the abilites of a Windrunner, he himself is not one.  The fact that Jasnah and Shallan are different orders can be deduced from WoK, the names of their orders and their other Surges was revealed in interviews.

 

They may not have specific duties, but the shards (or people holding the shards?) clearly each do something. Odium seems hell bent on destroying things, I'm not really sure about Cultivation,  but I would assume s/he/it is behind the life on Roshar, possibly helping things evolve to survive the Highstorms, and as other people have suggested possibly as the Nightwatcher. This leaves me wondering what Honor was doing. I highly doubt he just sat around doing nothing, and since he made the Honorpact with Odium it seems as if he had something to do with either actively or passively countering him. It makes me wonder what he was doing, as in most fantasy series the God-like figure tends to not intervene directly, but is usually behind either giving people their magical abilities, choosing a champion every so often, etc etc.

 

Odium is going around killing and shattering the other Shards because he wants to be the most powerful being in the cosmere but I wouldn't say that is an intrinsic part of Odium.  If someone besides Rayse had taken it up they would very likely act differently.  Honor and Cultivation (who is female) came to Roshar together because they were romantically involved.  They have to act according to their Intent, but they are able to interpret to a certain extent, meaning they can do whatever they want as long as they believe conforms to the Intent of their Shard.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Indubitable

[Isomere]

Who is the Almighty? We don't know. Most people think the Almighty is the Shard Honor. However, Brandon has told us the people on Roshar use the word incorrectly, so consider what Tanavast says at the end of WOK: "I am… I was… God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” Notice his careful wording. He doesn't say I AM the Almighty, rather that the people of Roshar call him that. Since they use the word wrong it leaves some questions unanswered. I believe Almighty referred to the union of Honor and Cultivation, but that is speculation. We know Honor and Cultivation were romantically involved and that spren possess varying mixtures of investiture from both Shards. If you are interested, the Tanavallah shows my thoughts on the symbols of this union, but other parts of that theory were debunked.

The Oathpact is mysterious and many theories exist about the participants and content. Bottom line is we don't know who was involved or what it entails. I personally agree with your interpretation that the Heralds swore an oath to keep Odium contained and limit his destruction of the Cosmere. Many believe it is a bargain between multiple Shards. Knowing Brandon it is option E that no one has considered yet.

There are many theories about Parshendi. Since they seem to have telepathy of some kind a simultaneous revolt of the Parshmen seems plausible. Many worry that the Parshendi are vulnerable to mind control when Odium is around. Similarly, some suspect the Voidbrings are able to possess the bodies of Parshendi and force them to fight. For my part I can't stop a nagging suspicion that we are on the wrong side of the war. The Alethi people seem bound to Odium and the Parshendi align with Honor.

[Levian]

There are many theories about Parshendi. Since they seem to have telepathy of some kind a simultaneous revolt of the Parshmen seems plausible. Many worry that the Parshendi are vulnerable to mind control when Odium is around. Similarly, some suspect the Voidbrings are able to possess the bodies of Parshendi and force them to fight. For my part I can't stop a nagging suspicion that we are on the wrong side of the war. The Alethi people seem bound to Odium and the Parshendi align with Honor.

 

I really like your idea about the Alethi being on the opposite side of things, that would make for a pretty insane twist.