The circle of infinite power has been closed!

[Kurkistan he/him]

Posting here because one of the relevant WoBs contains a SoS spoiler.
 
It all started with a single innocent thought...
 

Actually, on that note, Allomantic gold can be pretty valuable merely as a tool for Compounding. Consider that this would easily allow any Bloodmaker to become a Compounder, as well as letting literally anyone benefit from "shared Compounding": everyone could have Allomantic gold spikes, including a few full Feruchemists with access to both Feruchemical gold and Feruchemical aluminum. Why hello there, world of perfect health.
 
This would even allow similar "power copying" for just about everyone and every power, actually, since everyone would have access to Compounded Feruchemical gold...
 
EDIT: Actually, you'd never even need to bring anyone but the original Gold/Gold twinborn into the picture to get infinite power. He can just Compound his original Feruchemical gold metalminds whenever we spike out his Feruchemical gold and tap them whenever we spike out his Allomantic gold. Infinite Allomantic gold and Feruchemical gold for all!!!!!!!!
 
EDIT 2: Although metalminds might be keyed to the spikes at that point rather than their recipients. Which would stop Compounding and explain why Inquisitors never Compounded...  
 
EDIT 4: Ah, nope, nevermind: Marsh is compounding Atium, so he can obviously use spiked powers for compounding. Either that or he has Feruchemical aluminum, but I rather doubt that and Occam has to step in eventually for these types of things.

 
Then I started gathering the evidence...
 
Source:

Kurkistan:
Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?
 
Brandon Sanderson:
No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead. 
 
Kurkistan:
Thanks!
 
I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)... 
 
Brandon Sanderson:
Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)
 
Kurkistan:
Thank you! 
 
*Now to create a society of infinite Compounding Feruchemists/Allomancers/Hemalurgists in the Mistborn Adventure Game...*

 
And then I acquired the last two pieces of my diabolical empire of evil.
 
Source:

[1:46:02]
Kurk: If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?
A: Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive
Q: Yeah, but still having Allomancy
A: Still has allomancy
Q: And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind
A: Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.
Kurk: So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?
A: Yes... Yeah, that should still work.
Q: Was Paalm doing that?
A: That's a RAFO.

 

To sum: We know that:

-Natural double-gold compounders can heal back their Allomancy using Feruchemy and their Feruchemy using Compounding

-Hemalurgists can still benefit from compounding Feruchemical stores, even after they've had the power-granting spikes removed

 

We only really needed that first bullet point to get off the ground, but the second helps smooth out the logistics.

 

So, until Brandon figures out the loophole and says something like "oh btw the spiritual shock of being hemalurgized kills you before you can actually heal back", then we can have a Scadrian future of basically everyone benefiting from death-free Hemalurgy of all the powers (basically suffering-free as well, if you do it at all right), so long as the gold supplies last.

 

An alternative loophole-closer is that you can only get soul-patched so many times before things start getting wonky, since the bit of soul you heal back isn't the same one you lost.

 

Source: (Small WoR Spoilers, just stop at the bolded section and you'll be good.)

[10:20]

Kurkistan: So you've said that healing is like the spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon: You need to make a patch on the soul with investiture.

Kurkistan: So how's the investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon: Well your soul /is/ an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do- to recreate that with um- see I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent: No, that’s okay.

Kurkistan: So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon: That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan: Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon: Yes.

Store Employee: If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb-

Brandon: Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like- it is not your original soul.

Store Employee: Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon: Yeah; in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan: So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon: [ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now] But that is what happens with most forms of investiture in the first place.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

He just had to RAFO the Paalm bit, didn't he?

 

I'm thinking that makes it far more likely she was doing that...

[Kairos]

Awesome, I was wondering what had happened to this.

So, I wonder if you can do the same thing with Stormlight and Hemalurgy. Does it heal to the cognitive ideal?

[Moogle]

Awesome, I was wondering what had happened to this.

So, I wonder if you can do the same thing with Stormlight and Hemalurgy. Does it heal to the cognitive ideal?

 

Well, if you're using Hemalurgy to steal the spren bond, you wouldn't be able to take in Stormlight after that. But if you were a Radiant in addition to something else, and you spiked the something else, it should work. We know from... I believe the Chicago signing recently... that Stormlight and Feruchemical gold are both basically the same healing-wise with only minor differences.

[Dunkum he/him]

Well, if you're using Hemalurgy to steal the spren bond, you wouldn't be able to take in Stormlight after that. But if you were a Radiant in addition to something else, and you spiked the something else, it should work. We know from... I believe the Chicago signing recently... that Stormlight and Feruchemical gold are both basically the same healing-wise with only minor differences.

well unless spiking the spren bond does something to both the person and the spren.  in that case, you may not be able to heal that bond, because you might need to heal the torn part of the spren too.

 

 

 

Back to the OP, I think the key is "as long as gold supplies last".  for a small society, you could keep this up pretty much indefinitely.  but for a large society (or one that grows exponentially, and thus becomes large quickly) you would probably run out of gold within a few generations, barring some significant space-travel/mining operations.  and that ignores the other resource constraints you would be running into along the way.  these things are surmountable, but if you don't work out the way past them quickly enough, you are in trouble.

 

for reference, about halfway through typing this, I did some rough estimates. guessing conservatively that any given individual would only have to actually burn a few grams of gold in their lifetime (thus removing it from existence, for all intents and purposes), and using wikipedia's estimate that there have been about 183,600,000,000 grams of gold mined in the history of the earth, you'd probably burn through that amount of gold in a few tens of generations.  it is hard to be precise because there are a lot of other variables that need to be taken into account, like starting population and growth rate.  but if your population roughly doubles until you get to about the current earth population, then levels off, then depending on the exact starting population, you could be looking at something like 50 generations.  less if I am underestimating the amount of gold burned per person.   on the other hand if the gold is actually recoverable, you could maybe go on indefinitely.

 

idle thoughts:

1. I wonder if this would result in later generations being more likely to be born as augurs/bloodmakers

2. I wonder if the large amount of investiture involved (especially the large amount of hemalurgy) would have any weird effects on later generations' SDNA

[Voidus]

well unless spiking the spren bond does something to both the person and the spren.  in that case, you may not be able to heal that bond, because you might need to heal the torn part of the spren too.

 

 

 

Back to the OP, I think the key is "as long as gold supplies last".  for a small society, you could keep this up pretty much indefinitely.  but for a large society (or one that grows exponentially, and thus becomes large quickly) you would probably run out of gold within a few generations, barring some significant space-travel/mining operations.  and that ignores the other resource constraints you would be running into along the way.  these things are surmountable, but if you don't work out the way past them quickly enough, you are in trouble.

 

for reference, about halfway through typing this, I did some rough estimates. guessing conservatively that any given individual would only have to actually burn a few grams of gold in their lifetime (thus removing it from existence, for all intents and purposes), and using wikipedia's estimate that there have been about 183,600,000,000 grams of gold mined in the history of the earth, you'd probably burn through that amount of gold in a few tens of generations.  it is hard to be precise because there are a lot of other variables that need to be taken into account, like starting population and growth rate.  but if your population roughly doubles until you get to about the current earth population, then levels off, then depending on the exact starting population, you could be looking at something like 50 generations.  less if I am underestimating the amount of gold burned per person.   on the other hand if the gold is actually recoverable, you could maybe go on indefinitely.

 

idle thoughts:

1. I wonder if this would result in later generations being more likely to be born as augurs/bloodmakers

2. I wonder if the large amount of investiture involved (especially the large amount of hemalurgy) would have any weird effects on later generations' SDNA

I think there was some WoB that the metal isn't actually destroyed when its burned so I think as long as there are multiple generations between needing to re-collect the gold it would still be fine. But if not, they could just travel to other planets to harvest it

Other than that though Scadrial has higher concentrations of metals than earth does so there'd still likely be more.

[Moogle]

I think there was some WoB that the metal isn't actually destroyed when its burned so I think as long as there are multiple generations between needing to re-collect the gold it would still be fine. But if not, they could just travel to other planets to harvest it

Other than that though Scadrial has higher concentrations of metals than earth does so there'd still likely be more.

 

WoBs are contradictory on this. The most recent WoB from the Chicago(?) signing says that metals will not be returned to the planet when burned.

[Voidus]

WoBs are contradictory on this. The most recent WoB from the Chicago(?) signing says that metals will not be returned to the planet when burned.

That's going to hurt my wanting-to-obey-Thermodynamics brain all over again.   

Either way I think they'd probably be alright since they'd likely have space travel down by the time it completely ran out. And that's not even getting into what you might be able to do with Nicrosil.

[Dunkum he/him]

That's going to hurt my wanting-to-obey-Thermodynamics brain all over again.   

Either way I think they'd probably be alright since they'd likely have space travel down by the time it completely ran out. And that's not even getting into what you might be able to do with Nicrosil.

true enough, especially if there are higher concentrations of metals.  that should extend the length somewhat.

 

I mostly started that post thinking it would be used up pretty quickly, but by the end, it was a bit more iffy than I had thought. 

[Guest]

That's going to hurt my wanting-to-obey-Thermodynamics brain all over again. 

 

Maybe sooth your hurting brain with the knowledge that although the matter is being destroyed, an equal amount of Investiture is taking it's place?

(I don't think that's actually accurate, for a wide variety of reasons, but if it makes the pain stop...)

[Voidus]

Maybe sooth your hurting brain with the knowledge that although the matter is being destroyed, an equal amount of Investiture is taking it's place?

(I don't think that's actually accurate, for a wide variety of reasons, but if it makes the pain stop...)

But the Investiture already existed, it's just drawn from the power of creation so the metals aren't being transformed.   

Eh, well until we learn otherwise I choose to believe the energy from the burned matter is transformed into Lifts Awesomeness.

[Kairos]

Well, if you're using Hemalurgy to steal the spren bond, you wouldn't be able to take in Stormlight after that. But if you were a Radiant in addition to something else, and you spiked the something else, it should work. We know from... I believe the Chicago signing recently... that Stormlight and Feruchemical gold are both basically the same healing-wise with only minor differences.

So, basically, one could spike out a gift from the Nightwatcher, then heal that with Stormlight, and repeat. I'm seeing Lift being even more useful.

[Titan Arum]

So, basically, one could spike out a gift from the Nightwatcher, then heal that with Stormlight, and repeat. I'm seeing Lift being even more useful awesome.

I edited what you actually meant. You're welcome. 

[Dunkum he/him]

But the Investiture already existed, it's just drawn from the power of creation so the metals aren't being transformed.   

Eh, well until we learn otherwise I choose to believe the energy from the burned matter is transformed into Lifts Awesomeness.

one way around it: the energy from the burned metal creates the conduit that the investiture flows through.  thus allowing for conservation of matter/energy and investiture

[Voidus]

one way around it: the energy from the burned metal creates the conduit that the investiture flows through.  thus allowing for conservation of matter/energy and investiture

This helps my brain stop trying to murder itself immensely. Thank you very much kind Sharder!

[StormingTexan he/him]

 

 I did some rough estimates. guessing conservatively that any given individual would only have to actually burn a few grams of gold in their lifetime (thus removing it from existence, for all intents and purposes), and using wikipedia's estimate that there have been about 183,600,000,000 grams of gold mined in the history of the earth, you'd probably burn through that amount of gold in a few tens of generations.  it is hard to be precise because there are a lot of other variables that need to be taken into account, like starting population and growth rate.  but if your population roughly doubles until you get to about the current earth population, then levels off, then depending on the exact starting population, you could be looking at something like 50 generations.  less if I am underestimating the amount of gold burned per person.   on the other hand if the gold is actually recoverable, you could maybe go on indefinitely.

 

 

In an immortal society I wonder though wouldn't people loose the desire/need to reproduce eventually? A big contributing factor to why we reproduce is it is our version of immortality. Of course I am not sure when this happens (as far as generations) but I am pretty sure it would and in turn throw off what we would consider normal population growth rates and gold consumption rates. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

They'd still die of old age, assuming that there's no ready access to atium.

[Dunkum he/him]

They'd still die of old age, assuming that there's no ready access to atium.

this.  I was more or less assuming that pretty much everyone lives to like 125 or so, but they die of old age eventually.  though there could be sociological factors that I didn't include.  maybe they would still reproduce less.  or maybe they would do it more, because they are all perfectly healthy.  no idea

[natc]

I think being able to do the deed without risk of STDs or other complications probably helps boost incentive for some of the people.

People are different though, it really depends.

[Dunkum he/him]

I think being able to do the deed without risk of STDs or other complications probably helps boost incentive for some of the people.

People are different though, it really depends.

now I've got myself wondering if tapping health while pregnant would also heal the baby...at the very least keeping the mother healthy means that gold compounding would probably drastically reduce the number of miscarriages

[Ari he/him]

Awesome, I was wondering what had happened to this.

So, I wonder if you can do the same thing with Stormlight and Hemalurgy. Does it heal to the cognitive ideal?

 

You mean the Spiritual ideal? Yeah, Brandon's confirmed that.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Ari

[Kaymyth she/her]

now I've got myself wondering if tapping health while pregnant would also heal the baby...at the very least keeping the mother healthy means that gold compounding would probably drastically reduce the number of miscarriages

 

Eh, how that would work would probably depend on the individual health issue.  I actually doubt that it would drop the miscarriage rate that far, since most of those are due to a genetic/development defect in the fetus.  There'd be no actual injury to heal.

[Dunkum he/him]

Eh, how that would work would probably depend on the individual health issue.  I actually doubt that it would drop the miscarriage rate that far, since most of those are due to a genetic/development defect in the fetus.  There'd be no actual injury to heal.

could be.  I don't actually have any kind of data on miscarriage causes.  presumably some are related to the health of the mother, and those ones would be reduced.