Dominion (Elantris Spoilers)

[Tarion]

 

“You are fools!” Miles yelled at the firing squad. “One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them."

 

So I mentioned in another thread that I think Dominion might be the new Shard in play. 

 

We know the Shard is one we know (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/45901-shadows-of-self-byu-midnight-signing/#entry336901) which limits our options significantly.  We've got the following list to work from: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard#Known_Shards

 

Devotion

Dominion

Odium

Cultivation

Honor

Endowment

Autonomy

 

Current frontrunners seem to be Odium and Autonomy.  I don't think they're likely - Odium is mentioned to be scared of Harmony, already has a storyline going and is trapped where he is IIRC (Similarly, I feel confident ruling out Honor and Cultivation.  One's dead, and both are busy).  

 

I also don't think autonomy fits the actions taken in SoS - Things like the creations in the Homeland go pretty firmly against Autonomy, as do statements made by Miles in AoL.  

 

That leaves us Devotion, Dominion and Endowment.  Of the three, I feel that Dominion is the best fit for what's been happening on Scadrial.  

 

Firstly, magic.  Co-opting the magic of the other side fits pretty strongly with what the Skaze's minions did in Elantris (The use of Seons).  Bleeder did the same thing.  

Secondly, the methodology.  The theft of magic is just part of the broader methodology that Bleeder has pulled right from the Derethi playbook.  They drove wedges between the religious sects and between political groups.  Even the moment where Bleeder exposed the kandra is eerily reminiscent of the exposure of Raoden as Elantrian.   

 

Thirdly, the goal.  Both the Derethi and the antagonists post-Catacendre have been obsessed with power structures.  They believe there is one correct way for the world to be run, and aim to overthrow the current system.  

 

Fourthly, on a meta level, this ties into the Elantris re-release.  The 10th anniversary is a great opportunity to slide Elantris more firmly into the Cosmere.  If Mistborn is bringing Elantris up, it'll be important to get the definitive version out first.  

 

Now, there are problems here, obviously.  I do not think they're insurmountable. 

First, obviously, is that Dominion was Splintered.  However, it could just be the Skaze working together, rather than the full Shard.  Alternatively, the Shard could have been recombined somehow.  

 

Secondly, Paalm's stated goal was not Dominion.  That isn't necessarily a problem though - The Skaze/Derethi seem to have no problem using people.  Their MO is to shake up the power structure and then move in to take power.  They did this both during the course of Elantris itself, but also in Duladel.  By "freeing" the people from the incorrect power structure, Paalm would leave them vulnerable to Dominion.

 

Alternatively, there may well still be some Devotion in the Dominion.  If they're a joined Shard (which makes sense, given that they're combined in some fashion into the Dor during Elantris, and would position them nicely as an antagonist to Sazed) then Paalm's actions make more sense.  She is in a very real way a creature of both Devotion and Dominion, as the Lord Ruler's personal kandra.  And her actions seem very focused on helping people, but in a very controlling manner. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Tarion

[Maths]

We also have this from the 2014 State of the Sanderson:

 

 

The full [Elantris] sequels will need to be finished before I can do the contemporary (1980s tech) Mistborn novels because of behind-the-scenes Cosmere bits.

Presumably this means something important in the Era 3 trilogy will rely upon us knowing what's been happening on Sel.

[Moogle]

We also have this from the 2014 State of the Sanderson:

 

Presumably this means something important in the Era 3 trilogy will rely upon us knowing what's been happening on Sel.

 

Very nice catch! I didn't even think about that.

[Unodus]

Am I missing something? I was convinced when trying to deduce Bleeders motive that she must have sided with Autonomy, based on the idea that she wants to "free" everyone. Why else reveal Bavadins intent now?

(I haven't read White Sands though, maybe that's why no ones brought it up yet)

[natc]

To troll us, for one.

Sanderson is like Hoid. You just never know for sure with Hoid.

[Bremen]

Why else reveal Bavadins intent now?

Because Brandon is a cat toying with his food.

 

edit: slow pony, that's what I get for taking 10 minutes deciding how to write one sentence, lol

Edited October 15, 2015 by Bremen

[Tarion]

We also have this from the 2014 State of the Sanderson:

 

Presumably this means something important in the Era 3 trilogy will rely upon us knowing what's been happening on Sel.

Thanks.  I find that pretty compelling.

Am I missing something? I was convinced when trying to deduce Bleeders motive that she must have sided with Autonomy, based on the idea that she wants to "free" everyone. Why else reveal Bavadins intent now?

(I haven't read White Sands though, maybe that's why no ones brought it up yet

People have definitely brought it up - As I said, Autonomy seems to be the front runner in most theories.

I just don't think it's likely.  Neither the Set, nor Miles seem that interested in autonomy (And I'd be surprised if they were unrelated to what's going on).  I also gave the example above of Paalm's Hemalurgic creations in the Homeland - She's apparently fine with enslaving, her issues are with who's doing the enslaving.  That's an issue of Dominion, not Autonomy.  This is also true in her schemes as a whole, since she's deliberately tricking people into a rebellion.  

As for why Bavadin's intent was revealed, it's worth remembering that even if Brandon isn't deliberately misleading us, White Sands is relevant this year.  We were told in his blog to expect a lot of talk about White Sands this year, because we're looking at the release of the graphic novels http://brandonsanderson.com/state-of-the-sanderson-december-2014/).  Now, they've been pushed back a bit as best we can tell, but we're still looking at it coming out next year.  Bavadin's relevant to the Cosmere without any tie in to Mistborn.  (

[ParadoxicalZen]

I can get behind this. Wasn't red a prominent colour with the Derethi? It could be the Stranger from the pool could be Selish

[Tarion]

I can get behind this. Wasn't red a prominent colour with the Derethi? It could be the Stranger from the pool could be Selish

It was.  I tried to tie red and gold to them, but unfortunately, they've got no connection to the colour gold in Elantris.  They do have a very strong connection to actual metallic gold though, which I suppose is one interpretation.  

 

There's a slightly greater connection between Korathi and the colour gold, in theme (Although their primary colour is blue, IIRC), but it felt pretty tenuous as an argument for a recombined shard.  

[ParadoxicalZen]

When the elantris update hits the UK, i'll go over it properly as my memory is a tad foggy. I'm of the opinion that given *minor SA/Elantris spoilers*

Galladon's/Grump's appearance in SA

that Devotion/Dominion/The Dor is more cohesive and better functioning, seeing as it takes place a thousand or so years before Mistborn Era 2

EDIT: Although, *more minor SA spoilers*

given that Thinker/Demoux is with Galladon, that might counter my idea as Harmony could be aware of Selish events

Edited October 15, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Vortaan]

I don't think Dominion is in the running here. The Wax and Wayne books take place pretty close to the SA books we've had so far. The Letter from WoK really makes me think that Sel's condition isn't too far off from what we saw it at before, or the author of the Letter doesn't know about a change in condition. Considering the Author's interests... I doubt he wouldn't know.

[SmoothMike]

It seems likely that it is Dominion to me. The creatures Paalm created with hemalurgy were beings that had twisted skeletal shapings and had extremely hard bones. This seems very similar to the Dakhor monks of sel, which use dominions form of investiture. This coincidence seems very deliberate, and we received no information on the hemalurgic spikes retrieved from the bodies, which may also have been of that new God Metal. WoB left himself a window here, because he could ultimately just call it a reaction of some part of hemalurgy we were just unaware of, but it is a strong coincidence.

Edited October 17, 2015 by SmoothMike

[Edgedancer]

Uhm, isn't Dominion kind of

dead and splintered? Seems hard to do much in that state. I suppose Trell could be some kind of Splinter of Dominion, though.

[The Honor Spren]

Uhm, isn't Dominion kind of

dead and splintered? Seems hard to do much in that state. I suppose Trell could be some kind of Splinter of Dominion, though.

He is indeed. I'm still with the autonomy theory.

[Tarion]

Uhm, isn't Dominion kind of

dead and splintered? Seems hard to do much in that state. I suppose Trell could be some kind of Splinter of Dominion, though.

I covered this briefly in the first post.

 

Elantris is set hundreds of years before SoS.  There's plenty of time for something to have changed.  If you look back at Maths' post (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/46972-dominion-elantris-spoilers/#entry341672), we know that something has happened (Or will happen) on Sel that's important to Scadrial.  

There's nothing saying that it's a whole Shard - WoB is that there's only two shards on Scadrial during SoS, IIRC.  It could well just be the Skaze (Most likely Splinters of Dominion).  Or the Splinters could have been recombined in some way - I believe there's a WoB that it's possible to recombine Adonalsium's Shards, so maybe something similar is possible with Splinters (Again, on a meta level, this makes sense to be something that's covered now - It's relevant to what's happening on Roshar).  

[Vortaan]

I covered this briefly in the first post.

 

Elantris is set hundreds of years before SoS.  There's plenty of time for something to have changed.  If you look back at Maths' post (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/46972-dominion-elantris-spoilers/#entry341672), we know that something has happened (Or will happen) on Sel that's important to Scadrial.  

There's nothing saying that it's a whole Shard - WoB is that there's only two shards on Scadrial during SoS, IIRC.  It could well just be the Skaze (Most likely Splinters of Dominion).  Or the Splinters could have been recombined in some way - I believe there's a WoB that it's possible to recombine Adonalsium's Shards, so maybe something similar is possible with Splinters (Again, on a meta level, this makes sense to be something that's covered now - It's relevant to what's happening on Roshar).  

 

Cannot figure out spoiler tag today, so response will wait until my head stops pounding

Edited October 17, 2015 by Vortaan

[Ari]

I covered this briefly in the first post.

 

Elantris is set hundreds of years before SoS.  There's plenty of time for something to have changed.  If you look back at Maths' post (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/46972-dominion-elantris-spoilers/#entry341672), we know that something has happened (Or will happen) on Sel that's important to Scadrial.  

There's nothing saying that it's a whole Shard - WoB is that there's only two shards on Scadrial during SoS, IIRC.  It could well just be the Skaze (Most likely Splinters of Dominion).  Or the Splinters could have been recombined in some way - I believe there's a WoB that it's possible to recombine Adonalsium's Shards, so maybe something similar is possible with Splinters (Again, on a meta level, this makes sense to be something that's covered now - It's relevant to what's happening on Roshar).  

 

Narratively, ressurecting Dominion off-screen and then having them come in as a suprise enemy Shard in another series with no foreshadowing is a horrendous idea. You see this in how Brandon talks about the relevance of events on Sel to Era 3- they need Elantris 2 to be written before Mistborn Era 3 can be, so that the relevant information is out there. In my opinion, this theory goes firmly into the bucket of "Brandon is too smart to write this way."

 

Unless we get information about events on Sel changing dramatically in Bands of Mourning, I'm really convinced that all Splintered shards remain Splintered for the time being. In fact, I'm going on record- I highly doubt Brandon will unSplinter any shards without doing it on-screen. If Dominion is coming back together somehow, I'm also 99% sure it won't be in the Wax and Wayne books. It will be in an Elantris book, where we expect to hear about Dominion and Devotion and their Splinters.

 

Your candidates, IMO, remain restricted to Endowment, Cultivation, Odium, and Autonomy. And of the four, the latter two seem to be the ones most likely from the SoS text, and even if some of Paalm's actions were counter to all four intents, that doesn't mean she wasn't being manipulated by an alien Shard, or by the agents of one. It just means that manipulation wasn't complete, and she was more than a puppet, and she didn't always act exactly how they wanted. That is fine and does not rule out "Trell" as a front for either Bavadin or one of the other three candidates.

[DreamEternal]

Narratively, ressurecting Dominion off-screen and then having them come in as a suprise enemy Shard in another series with no foreshadowing is a horrendous idea. You see this in how Brandon talks about the relevance of events on Sel to Era 3- they need Elantris 2 to be written before Mistborn Era 3 can be, so that the relevant information is out there. In my opinion, this theory goes firmly into the bucket of "Brandon is too smart to write this way."

Unless we get information about events on Sel changing dramatically in Bands of Mourning, I'm really convinced that all Splintered shards remain Splintered for the time being. In fact, I'm going on record- I highly doubt Brandon will unSplinter any shards without doing it on-screen. If Dominion is coming back together somehow, I'm also 99% sure it won't be in the Wax and Wayne books. It will be in an Elantris book, where we expect to hear about Dominion and Devotion and their Splinters.

Your candidates, IMO, remain restricted to Endowment, Cultivation, Odium, and Autonomy. And of the four, the latter two seem to be the ones most likely from the SoS text, and even if some of Paalm's actions were counter to all four intents, that doesn't mean she wasn't being manipulated by an alien Shard, or by the agents of one. It just means that manipulation wasn't complete, and she was more than a puppet, and she didn't always act exactly how they wanted. That is fine and does not rule out "Trell" as a front for either Bavadin or one of the other three candidates.

You are assuming we have to discover who is Trell by the end of W&W. In fact, the nature of the bigger enemy may be left in shadow until the third era.

[Ari]

You are assuming we have to discover who is Trell by the end of W&W. In fact, the nature of the bigger enemy may be left in shadow until the third era.

 

I was, but I don't particularly think it matters, as it violates a lot of the rules Brandon publicly talks about using for him to foreshadow bringing back a Shard this way. It does make it a better possibility, but personally I'm still in the "Brandon is a better writer than this" camp regarding this theory even if Trell doesn't feature until Era 3. (Which does seem relatively unlikely given the recurring mentions. If Brandon were just setting up another Shard for Era 3, it could have been done without Marasi connecting the dots to Trell. It seems more likely that Era 2 involves dealing to Trell's minions, as well as the Set, and Trell's involvement in Era 3 will be more direct)

[natc]

Regarding Paalm not quite adhering to the intents of the suspects, the culprit might not actually want a total puppet. Take Preservation's master plan; he needed to create a situation where someone would inherit his power and kill Ruin by themselves. A puppet that is completely controlled would be worthless, since they can't kill and basically cannot fend off Ruin's minions at all. Killing Ruin, however, will serve the greater purpose of preserving Scadrial. Besides, Preservation had to die to succeed, so the agent needed to have a desire to do the job without external control.

The main reason to have an agent is to be able to do things you can't do due to your intent, I would think. So a shard letting Paalm have the freedom to go against their direct influence can actually be the desired situation, as it can provide more options to further the end goal of the perpetrator.

Yes, Ruin had a total puppet in Marsh, but in reality his main pawn in his plan was Vin, who he just secretly pointed towards a goal and left to her own devices. She had a part in amassing the manpower and resources to make such a big quest feasible, which probably wouldn't happen if she was driven by a lust to destroy everything. She did have enough of a tendency towards violence that the influence is kind of clear in hindsight, but nothing entirely restricting.

[Moogle]

Of note, this description of soulstone is close to that of the mystery metal:

 

Soulstone, as a rock, looked not unlike soapstone or another fine-grained stone, but with bits of red mixed in. As if drops of blood had stained it.

Compare to the metal:

 

A small spike, long as a finger, made of some silvery metal with dark red spots, like rusted bits.
 

Soulstone is not a metal, obviously, but to me this gives some credence to the idea that the metal might be of Dominion.

[Unodus]

This might be unrelated, but weren't Lightsongs banners red and gold? Perhaps there is a pattern :B

[Stormgate]

To all those who say that some of Paalm's actions violate Autonomy's intent, remember that Leras stabbed Elend. Sure, his greater goal was to prevent Vin from releasing Ruin, Leras still did something opposite to his Shard's intent. On top of that, Paalm wasn't Autonomy. Paalm was at least minorly able to do what she wished, as she was likely a pawn, not a puppet.

Spoiler tag for ADD moment

Actually, just thinking about it, in a game of chess, each side has sixteen chess pieces. I have no idea what this could mean, perhaps it's just a coincidence, but it's interesting. Also, another ADD moment, maybe we could get a tag like a spoiler tag for ADD moments.

[Moogle]

The theory that the new Shard's spike was revealed in TES "has merit".

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/40u26v/a_rational_solution_for_vintage_and_maybe_legacy/cyyh4rk?context=3

 

That's so vague that I'm not sure it was worth posting here, but perhaps people will find it interesting all the same.

[Unodus]

Looking back at Trelagism- if Trell is a shard, does that mean we can anticipate Nalt being a shard too?

 

Actually, the existence of Trelagism must mean Trell has visited scadrial in some form prior to the final empire. Presumably when TLR moved the planet Trell couldn't find it, but when Sazed moved it back (using Trelagism as a reference ironically, iirc) that must have been when Trell noticed it return to it's original position. I wonder why he hasn't tried to communicate with Sazed though- perhaps he holds him responsible for Leras and Ati's death?

 

Just a few passing observations, sorry if these have already been mentioned x.x

Edited January 15, 2016 by Unodus