Theory: Shards Can't Alter Their Magic Systems

[Moogle]

 

Atium, despite of what was believed during the Lord Ruler's era, was never part of the allomantic metals¹, as it is of Ruin and works slightly differently. The "proper" Allomantic metals are what Allomancers burn to get access to Preservation's (later Harmony's) power². Atium, on the other hand, is (a small amount of) Ruin's power, and is metabolised directly in order to fuel its allomantic effects³. This means then, that the newly discovered metals were always a part of the Allomantic table, with Nicrosil/Chromium being the external opposites of Duralumin/Aluminum and Cadmium/Bendalloy the external opposites of Gold/Electrum.

 

Now, there whether or not the Mistings of these Metals existed prior to Harmony's ascension might be subject to debate, but there is an unquestionable precedent for unwitting Mistings⁴, although it seems likely that these were not Snapped by the Mists. 

 

I appreciate your research and quotes, but I don't feel the conclusions follow. Atium Mistings quite clearly existed. We have various WoBs backing up the fact that metals were 'switched' on the Allomantic table.

 

 

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon SandersonPreservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers

(source)

 

The question is what 'took out' means. I take it to mean that no Bendalloy/Cadmium Mistings of that type could come into existence, and in exchange there were Malatium and Atium Mistings. Keep in mind that Atium and Malatium are both External Pulling/Pushing Temporal metals, and that they perfectly fit into the table, just like Bendalloy/Cadmium (also External Pulling/Pushing Temporal).

 

It could also mean that cadmium/bendalloy just didn't work pre-Harmony, which I think is not the case. I think it makes more sense that Preservation just had control over his Mistings, though.

[Aether]

I appreciate your research and quotes, but I don't feel the conclusions follow. Atium Mistings quite clearly existed. We have various WoBs backing up the fact that metals were 'switched' on the Allomantic table.

 

 

The question is what 'took out' means. I take it to mean that no Bendalloy/Cadmium Mistings of that type could come into existence, and in exchange there were Malatium and Atium Mistings. Keep in mind that Atium and Malatium are both External Pulling/Pushing Temporal metals, and that they perfectly fit into the table, just like Bendalloy/Cadmium (also External Pulling/Pushing Temporal).

 

It could also mean that cadmium/bendalloy just didn't work pre-Harmony, which I think is not the case. I think it makes more sense that Preservation just had control over his Mistings, though.

I was not familiar with this WoB. It doesn't however change much other than canonize that the Mists didn't Snap any Nicrosil/Chromium Allomancers. In fact, I disagree with your last statement, because the wording seems to confirm that these metals weren't Allomatically inert pre-ascension. They were "[taken]  took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers", which means they were there to be excluded from the Mists' Snapping in the first place.

 

Atium is not and never were a part of the Allomantic metals. The sixteen we know now were the same pre-ascension. Only difference was that Mistings for the then unknown metals weren't Snapped by the Mists, and when Snapped on their own, they had no way of knowing what they were.

 

EDIT: Whether or not there are still Atium and Malatium Mistings post-ascension (though the metals themselves aren't available) remains to be seen.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Aether

[Vortaan]

I was not familiar with this WoB. It doesn't however change much other than canonize that the Mists didn't Snap any Nicrosil/Chromium Allomancers. In fact, I disagree with your last statement, because the wording seems to confirm that these metals weren't Allomatically inert pre-ascension. They were "[taken]  took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers", which means they were there to be excluded from the Mists' Snapping in the first place.

 

Atium is not and never were a part of the Allomantic metals. The sixteen we know now were the same pre-ascension. Only difference was that Mistings for the then unknown metals weren't Snapped by the Mists, and when Snapped on their own, they had no way of knowing what they were.

 

EDIT: Whether or not there are still Atium and Malatium Mistings post-ascension (though the metals themselves aren't available) remains to be seen.

 

How does that quote canonize that the mists didn't snap any Nicrosil/Chromium Allomancers? It still leaves a giant gap in the table, with two Enhancement metals missing. You're stating quite a bit as fact that I think is probably your opinion. For example, the mists had to have been programmed with their Snapping ideas prior to the Ascension, since Leras was already reduced to the mist spirit at that time. So for at least 2000 years, atium/malatium was probably on the table for mist snapping instead of cadmium/bendalloy.

 

The 16% is the important number, but remember that Rashek killed all technological progress in the Final Empire. If he hadn't, it is extremely conceivable that nicrosil, chromium, bendalloy, and cadmium could have been discovered and in regular use. If cadmium/bendalloy was usable by Mistings, it really would have killed the whole 16 metals clue, don't you think?

 

I also disagree with your atium not being part of the table conclusion. How else do you explain that atium's Allomantic effects are only available so far to Seers and Mistborn? A perfect example of this is how they found people to kill for atium spikes for the Inquisitors. Atium was given to large groups of nobles in small amounts in their wine, and then a disturbance was created. Whomever burned it instinctively was a Seer. This method doesn't seem like it would work if atium could be used Allomantically by anyone.

[Aether]

How does that quote canonize that the mists didn't snap any Nicrosil/Chromium Allomancers? It still leaves a giant gap in the table, with two Enhancement metals missing. You're stating quite a bit as fact that I think is probably your opinion. For example, the mists had to have been programmed with their Snapping ideas prior to the Ascension, since Leras was already reduced to the mist spirit at that time. So for at least 2000 years, atium/malatium was probably on the table for mist snapping instead of cadmium/bendalloy.

 

The 16% is the important number, but remember that Rashek killed all technological progress in the Final Empire. If he hadn't, it is extremely conceivable that nicrosil, chromium, bendalloy, and cadmium could have been discovered and in regular use. If cadmium/bendalloy was usable by Mistings, it really would have killed the whole 16 metals clue, don't you think?

 

I also disagree with your atium not being part of the table conclusion. How else do you explain that atium's Allomantic effects are only available so far to Seers and Mistborn? A perfect example of this is how they found people to kill for atium spikes for the Inquisitors. Atium was given to large groups of nobles in small amounts in their wine, and then a disturbance was created. Whomever burned it instinctively was a Seer. This method doesn't seem like it would work if atium could be used Allomantically by anyone.

What I am suggesting is that - while the Mists might only have focused on 16 types of Mistings (Atium and Malatium replacing Cadmium and Bendalloy or Chromium and Nicrosil or whatever) - there still would have been naturally occurring Mistings of the unknown metals pre-ascension. Possibly also for all the different alloys of Atium, though I can only hypothesize on that point.

 

The gap your talking about could have been filled either by one of the pairs of unknown metals or just higher percentages of the other types of Mistings, as suggested in my last post. But your right, if the Mists Snapped 16 different types of allomancers, we have little evidence to suggest either one, though Nicrosil/Chromium might make more sense as they're part of the enhancement quadrant, and because Cadmium/Bendalloy would take the place that was believed to be held by Atium/Malatium. I might have been wrong on that particular point.

 

But it is a huge red-herring to focus too much on what the Mists might have Snapped or not. My main point is that I believe that the post-ascension metals was not allomantically inert pre-ascension. If they had discovered those metals, I believe Mistborns would have been able to burn them, and that Mistings for them would have existed within the population. The Mists, however, might not have been "programmed" to Snap some of these. I believe we have enough evidence to support this conclusion, though some of it is admittedly somewhat circumstantial.

 

And lastly, in the spirit of repeating myself: as per WoB, Atium/Lerasium and their alloys have never been a part of the table, despite what the observers of the Scadrian magic system might have thought. The God metal and its alloys do not work in the same way as the other metals, and should thus not be lumped in with them, but considered apart of the Allomantic Table (along with the other God metal and its alloys, Lerasium).

Edited December 8, 2013 by Aether

[Moogle]

But it is a huge red-herring to focus too much on what the Mists might have Snapped or not. My main point is that I believe that the post-ascension metals was not allomantically inert pre-ascension. If they had discovered those metals, I believe Mistborns would have been able to burn them, and that Mistings for them would have existed within the population. The Mists, however, might not have been "programmed" to Snap some of these. I believe we have enough evidence to support this conclusion, though some of it is admittedly somewhat circumstantial.

 

And lastly, in the spirit of repeating myself: as per WoB, Atium/Lerasium and their alloys have never been a part of the table, despite what the observers of the Scadrian magic system might have thought. The God metal and its alloys do not work in the same way as the other metals, and should thus not be lumped in with them, but considered apart of the Allomantic Table (along with the other God metal and its alloys, Lerasium).

 

I agree, in part. To reiterate, here is a quick list of points I am putting forward:

• All metals (base 16 + 2 god metals + 16 x 2 god metal alloys + potentially more atium-lerasium/base metal alloys) were burnable by Mistborn. They were never Allomantically inert, as it were. If cadmium were found, a Mistborn could burn it. Preservation was incapable of changing this, as per my theory.
• What Preservation could change was how people accessed his system (being born a Misting), and even then, he could only modify it. He could change what types of Mistings would be born/Snappable. In the original Allomantic system (at the dawn of Scadrial's creation), all 16 metals base (non-God/God-alloy metals) were there. Cadmium and Bendalloy Mistings Snapped (insofar as 'Mistings' existed before the first lerasium was burned), though they wouldn't have known of course.
• Suddenly, Preservation betrays Ruin (fully in line with his Intent). He looks to the future, and devises a plan: by collecting and burning atium, Ruin's power could be reduced. Mistborn are going to be too rare, and there are only 16 Mistings. So... he takes out 2 kinds of Mistings, of hard-to-find metals (Cadmium/Bendalloy), and puts in Atium Mistings/Malatium Mistings. Two External Temporal metals taken out and replaced with Two External Temporal metals. The system's logic (4 metals x 4 categories, or 2x2x2x2) is preserved.

Now, the issue is that the world will look the same per your conclusions (C/B Mistings were not Snapped by the Mists) and look the same if my theories are correct (there were no C/B Mistings because there could only be 16). The most important evidence we have to differentiate them is WoB, and he has not been quite clear what is involved in swapping out metals on the Allomantic Table.

 

Now, I'm fairly confident you accept the existence of Atium Mistings (correct me if I'm wrong), you're just arguing that there were more than 16 types of Misting pre-Harmony. Do you also believe that there were Mistings for other Atium-alloys, like Atium-pewter, Atium-steel, etc.?

 

 

And lastly, in the spirit of repeating myself: as per WoB, Atium/Lerasium and their alloys have never been a part of the table, despite what the observers of the Scadrian magic system might have thought. The God metal and its alloys do not work in the same way as the other metals, and should thus not be lumped in with them, but considered apart of the Allomantic Table (along with the other God metal and its alloys, Lerasium).

 

I am afraid that I disagree with your conclusion on the WoB. Your quote is "Suffice it to say that Atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was." This does not automatically imply that Atium was never on the Table, though I agree that it initially was not on it, but then Leras monkeyed around with it to kill Ruin.

 

As to the God metals not working the same way... they don't work the same way, exactly, but that doesn't mean they aren't Allomantic metals. Here's how normal metals work, as per AoL:

 

 

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

 

The difference between lerasium/atium and the normal metals is that the normal metals do not supply the power, whilst lerasium/atium do supply their own power (being the crystallized essence of Shards). This does not mean lerasium and atium cannot be on the Allomantic table, necessarily! They're still Allomantic metals. I say this because they're metal and used in Allomancy. The Allomantic Table's one constant is that it is separated into quadrants, with two internal and two external metals. Under my theory, the Misting-types are modifiable by Preservation so long as he keeps the quadrant structure constant.

 

Basically, I feel my theory fits more with the number 16. Leras felt 16 was an important number, and that it could be a sign to his followers because Ruin could not easily manipulate it. Thus, 16% of people falling to the Mistsickness (this bugs me, how did Leras know they'd use base 10?), and 1/16 of those being Atium Mistings. And... naturally, 16 types of Mistings only.

 

Again, I do not think the evidence is great enough to favor one side. I think your theory has problems explaining what the WoBs mean when they mention metals being changed, and I think it also fails to explain why Leras would have there be more than 16 types of Mistings. Keep in mind that the mists only snapped those whose power was buried deep, as per a WoB in this thread I can't find right now. I think my theory has problems as well, or at least uncertainties.

 

Honestly, someone should just ask Brandon whether or not there were Bendalloy and Cadmium Mistings pre-Harmony. It would settle this discussion.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Moogle

[Aether]

I agree, in part. To reiterate, here is a quick list of points I am putting forward:

• All metals (base 16 + 2 god metals + 16 x 2 god metal alloys + potentially more atium-lerasium/base metal alloys) were burnable by Mistborn. They were never Allomantically inert, as it were. If cadmium were found, a Mistborn could burn it. Preservation was incapable of changing this, as per my theory.
• What Preservation could change was how people accessed his system (being born a Misting), and even then, he could only modify it. He could change what types of Mistings would be born/Snappable. In the original Allomantic system (at the dawn of Scadrial's creation), all 16 metals base (non-God/God-alloy metals) were there. Cadmium and Bendalloy Mistings Snapped (insofar as 'Mistings' existed before the first lerasium was burned), though they wouldn't have known of course.
• Suddenly, Preservation betrays Ruin (fully in line with his Intent). He looks to the future, and devises a plan: by collecting and burning atium, Ruin's power could be reduced. Mistborn are going to be too rare, and there are only 16 Mistings. So... he takes out 2 kinds of Mistings, of hard-to-find metals (Cadmium/Bendalloy), and puts in Atium Mistings/Malatium Mistings. Two External Temporal metals taken out and replaced with Two External Temporal metals. The system's logic (4 metals x 4 categories, or 2x2x2x2) is preserved.

Now, the issue is that the world will look the same per your conclusions (C/B Mistings were not Snapped by the Mists) and look the same if my theories are correct (there were no C/B Mistings because there could only be 16). The most important evidence we have to differentiate them is WoB, and he has not been quite clear what is involved in swapping out metals on the Allomantic Table.

 

Now, I'm fairly confident you accept the existence of Atium Mistings (correct me if I'm wrong), you're just arguing that there were more than 16 types of Misting pre-Harmony. Do you also believe that there were Mistings for other Atium-alloys, like Atium-pewter, Atium-steel, etc.?

 

 

I am afraid that I disagree with your conclusion on the WoB. Your quote is "Suffice it to say that Atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was." This does not automatically imply that Atium was never on the Table, though I agree that it initially was not on it, but then Leras monkeyed around with it to kill Ruin.

 

As to the God metals not working the same way... they don't work the same way, exactly, but that doesn't mean they aren't Allomantic metals. Here's how normal metals work, as per AoL:

 

 

The difference between lerasium/atium and the normal metals is that the normal metals do not supply the power, whilst lerasium/atium do supply their own power (being the crystallized essence of Shards). This does not mean lerasium and atium cannot be on the Allomantic table, necessarily! They're still Allomantic metals. I say this because they're metal and used in Allomancy. The Allomantic Table's one constant is that it is separated into quadrants, with two internal and two external metals. Under my theory, the Misting-types are modifiable by Preservation so long as he keeps the quadrant structure constant.

 

Basically, I feel my theory fits more with the number 16. Leras felt 16 was an important number, and that it could be a sign to his followers because Ruin could not easily manipulate it. Thus, 16% of people falling to the Mistsickness (this bugs me, how did Leras know they'd use base 10?), and 1/16 of those being Atium Mistings. And... naturally, 16 types of Mistings only.

 

Again, I do not think the evidence is great enough to favor one side. I think your theory has problems explaining what the WoBs mean when they mention metals being changed, and I think it also fails to explain why Leras would have there be more than 16 types of Mistings. Keep in mind that the mists only snapped those whose power was buried deep, as per a WoB in this thread I can't find right now. I think my theory has problems as well, or at least uncertainties.

 

Honestly, someone should just ask Brandon whether or not there were Bendalloy and Cadmium Mistings pre-Harmony. It would settle this discussion.

 

• I never said that Atium/Lerasium weren't Allomantic metals (or maybe I did, but that was not what I intended to express), but that they're separate from the Allomantic metals of the Allomantic Table. Quite possibly, they form their own quadrant of quadrants or whatever.
• I do not dispute the existence of Seers, and I do believe that there would have been more than 16 types of Mistings. I am not sure if there would have been Atium-Pewter type Mistings or not, but I suppose there would have been (although someone on this forum suggested that Atium Mistings might be able to burn all types of Atium alloys).

My main problem with the "Leras swapped C/B or N/C with Atium/Malatium" is that I doubt that Preservation would have been able to foresee that the level of technology preceding Ruins escape would not let them discover the harder-to-get metals, and that the only Atium alloy they would discover was Malatium. Preservation did indeed have some form of future-sight, but I do not think it was extensive enough to know all of this.

 

I know Harmony was able to do some minor changes/tweak to the magic system of Scadrial, but I think this amounts to changing how Snapping occurs and not to changes in the Allomantic quadrants.

 

EDIT: Don't know where the "not" went from "I do not dispute the existence of Seers". Yomen was a Seer. I would have no basis to claim Seers did not exist, and I didn't intend to either.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Aether

[Swimmingly]

Based on the WoR back cover, it seems that something traumatic happens to you, which results in a "cracked soul", in which something else can fit. In Mistborn's case, Allomancy. I think it would be reasonable to suspect that Sazed could change Snapping to make the 'cracks' required to be very small, perhaps to the point that birth would be enough to Snap you.

I believe we have WoB that it doesn't, in fact, need to be trauma. Intense joy, anger, etc. Would work as well, but, in humans, terrible pain and regret is much more prevalent than rapturous joy.

[Swimmingly]

Based on the WoR back cover, it seems that something traumatic happens to you, which results in a "cracked soul", in which something else can fit. In Mistborn's case, Allomancy. I think it would be reasonable to suspect that Sazed could change Snapping to make the 'cracks' required to be very small, perhaps to the point that birth would be enough to Snap you.

I believe we have WoB that it doesn't, in fact, need to be trauma. Intense joy, anger, etc. Would work as well, but, in humans, terrible pain and regret is much more prevalent than rapturous joy.

[Kurkistan]

I believe we have WoB that it doesn't, in fact, need to be trauma. Intense joy, anger, etc. Would work as well, but, in humans, terrible pain and regret is much more prevalent than rapturous joy.

 

Yup, it's WoB. Nice catch, as most people don't remember that little tidbit.

[Vortaan]

What I am suggesting is that - while the Mists might only have focused on 16 types of Mistings (Atium and Malatium replacing Cadmium and Bendalloy or Chromium and Nicrosil or whatever) - there still would have been naturally occurring Mistings of the unknown metals pre-ascension. Possibly also for all the different alloys of Atium, though I can only hypothesize on that point.

 

The gap your talking about could have been filled either by one of the pairs of unknown metals or just higher percentages of the other types of Mistings, as suggested in my last post. But your right, if the Mists Snapped 16 different types of allomancers, we have little evidence to suggest either one, though Nicrosil/Chromium might make more sense as they're part of the enhancement quadrant, and because Cadmium/Bendalloy would take the place that was believed to be held by Atium/Malatium. I might have been wrong on that particular point.

 

But it is a huge red-herring to focus too much on what the Mists might have Snapped or not. My main point is that I believe that the post-ascension metals was not allomantically inert pre-ascension. If they had discovered those metals, I believe Mistborns would have been able to burn them, and that Mistings for them would have existed within the population. The Mists, however, might not have been "programmed" to Snap some of these. I believe we have enough evidence to support this conclusion, though some of it is admittedly somewhat circumstantial.

 

I find this hard to agree with, simply because the whole 16 clue falls apart if there are 18 metals that you can have Mistings for. I don't disagree that Mistborn could probably have still burned cadmium/bendalloy, but I really think that bendalloy/cadmium Mistings couldn't have existed without throwing a huge wrench in the leaving a clue aspect that Leras was trying to accomplish. I don't know if they were exactly Allomantically inert, but could they maybe have acted like bad alloys? Still burnable, but still able to help along the 16 metals clue?

 

• I do dispute the existence of Seers, and I do believe that there would have been more than 16 types of Mistings. I am not sure if there would have been Atium-Pewter type Mistings or not, but I suppose there would have been (although someone on this forum suggested that Atium Mistings might be able to burn all types of Atium alloys).

 

 

I dispute your disputation... unless you have a pretty good theory about why the Ministry's method of finding atium Mistings to kill for Inquisitor spikes works. Personally I think there are more than one uses for atium and the use we've seen from all Allomancers so far is just the body's instinctive use of it, and is in fact limited to a specific sDNA. I imagine there is a more generalized use that does not have the same effect.

 

 

My main problem with the "Leras swapped C/B or N/C with Atium/Malatium" is that I doubt that Preservation would have been able to foresee that the level of technology preceding Ruins escape would not let them discover the harder-to-get metals, and that the only Atium alloy they would discover was Malatium. Preservation did indeed have some form of future-sight, but I do not think it was extensive enough to know all of this.

 

 

I don't disagree, but this seems like a point in favor of him swapping the metals out entirely. If he couldn't know that people wouldn't discover bendalloy.cadmium, then it makes sense to take them and the other atium-alloys out of the mix until post-Ruin. Otherwise, I agree, things get a little wonky and the whole 16 clue falls apart. I wonder though if Leras foresaw Mistborn? I don't think they could be blocked from burning the different alloys or metals, and I wonder if not anticipating them could have ruined his whole plan.

[Oudeis]

A perfect example of this is how they found people to kill for atium spikes for the Inquisitors. Atium was given to large groups of nobles in small amounts in their wine, and then a disturbance was created. Whomever burned it instinctively was a Seer. This method doesn't seem like it would work if atium could be used Allomantically by anyone.

 

?? This happened?

 

There's a lot of talk about how having 18 types of Mistings would ruin Preservation's clue. Here's my thought. Perspective.

 

I think that Preservation would be flabberghasted to hear that we (or Scadrians) thought Atium and Malatium were simply other metals. I think from his perspective, God metals are so utterly and obviously different from base metals that he can't understand how anyone could confuse the two. I think he anticipated that anyone with a mind that would pay attention to something like percentages of sick would deduce, like Yomen did, that 16 is a number of power, regardless of whether they know specific metals or not, as a matter of pure theory. Not having discovered Nicrosil, or the existence of a clearly (to Preservation) atypical metal like atium, I think Preservation literally couldn't think like a human anymore enough to realize how confusing that could be to us.

[Kurkistan]

?? This happened?

 

Yup.

 

Source:

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

How did Inquisitors find Atium mistings?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

They spike the drinks at one of the nobility's balls with trace amounts of Atium, then cause a bit disturbance. (Often, the Inquisitors themselves arriving will do it) and burn bronze and watch for brief pulses. The body will burn metals instinctively if it can, which has been shown quite often in the series. This is also how they get a lot of their secret information about who is a Misting and who isn't. It's not a perfect method, since you have to watch for Copperclouds messing things up, but it is effective once in a while.

 

Any time an obligator who is not a Misting joins the Ministry, he is unknowingly given a larger chunk of atium and then forced into a series of rituals that will drain him physically and get the body to react and burn the metal. This was how Yomen was discovered.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Aether]

I dispute your disputation...

I never intended to dispute the existence of Seers. The "not" from my "I do not dispute" probably disappeared in some of my cpoy-pasting or something.

 

As to the our real point of contentions, I think Darnam has a real good and eloquent explanation. I wished I could have expressed my thoughts on this as just as clearly.

I think that Preservation would be flabberghasted to hear that we (or Scadrians) thought Atium and Malatium were simply other metals. I think from his perspective, God metals are so utterly and obviously different from base metals that he can't understand how anyone could confuse the two. I think he anticipated that anyone with a mind that would pay attention to something like percentages of sick would deduce, like Yomen did, that 16 is a number of power, regardless of whether they know specific metals or not, as a matter of pure theory. Not having discovered Nicrosil, or the existence of a clearly (to Preservation) atypical metal like atium, I think Preservation literally couldn't think like a human anymore enough to realize how confusing that could be to us.

Right on!

 

Yup.

 

Source:

I am getting increasingly suspicious that Kurk is an actual Keeper, or at least an Archivist. He must have Copperminds to keep track of his unbelievably huge amount of quotes and references. Kurk, how the h**l are you able to remember even individual posts he's made!

[Oudeis]

Yup.

 

Source:

 

Oooo, fascinating. Thank you. I wonder if any Tineyes ever noticed...

 

As to the our real point of contentions, I think Darnam has a real good and eloquent explanation. I wished I could have expressed my thoughts on this as just as clearly.

Right on!

 

D'aw, shucks, you're making me blush.

[Kurkistan]

I am getting increasingly suspicious that Kurk is an actual Keeper, or at least an Archivist. He must have Copperminds to keep track of his unbelievably huge amount of quotes and references. Kurk, how the h**l are you able to remember even individual posts he's made!

 

If you really want to be freaked out, check out some of Phantom Monstrosity's work. The man's unreal in how fast and thoroughly he cites stuff.

 

Myself, I have a two-fold system: First, I have an okay memory when it comes to bits and pieces of quotes. This means that I can usually get away with a fairly specific Google. As it turns out, that didn't work this time, but Vortaan was correct in using the word "disturbance", since I recalled that specific word as well, and so I just did a Theoryland search for it.

 

Also, for the quotes I had a really hard time tracking down (like TLR's "old person time") or reference a lot (Cognitive health), I usually make a Bookmark in a folder on my browser. I probably have about a hundred of those, total.

[Arachiel]

I like this theory. It was how Vin Snapped. She just had a very long and hard birth. I don't recall the WoB saying he just made it easier though. All I recall is Brandon being vague and saying that he changed it.

Whoa, wait a second. This is kind of pinpricking, but I just want to get it straight. I'm pretty sure Vin did not Snap at birth. As far as I'm aware, I thought it said somewhere that no one was really sure when Vin Snapped because her life had had so many traumatic points. The first traumatic event in Vin's life we know of is when her freako mom Spiked her and killed her sister.

 

Also, someone probably already said this, but Sazed did not "swap" cadmium and bendalloy with atium and malatium. Atium and malatium were mistakenly placed in the Allomantic table as they are not from Scadrial. That's why when you include those (lerasium included) in the list of Allomantic metals, you get 19, not 16. They were not supposed to be in the table in the first place.

[Kurkistan]

Whoa, wait a second. This is kind of pinpricking, but I just want to get it straight. I'm pretty sure Vin did not Snap at birth. As far as I'm aware, I thought it said somewhere that no one was really sure when Vin Snapped because her life had had so many traumatic points. The first traumatic event in Vin's life we know of is when her freako mom Spiked her and killed her sister.

 

I think you're right here, but can't find the citation at the moment.

[Oudeis]

Whoa, wait a second. This is kind of pinpricking, but I just want to get it straight. I'm pretty sure Vin did not Snap at birth. As far as I'm aware, I thought it said somewhere that no one was really sure when Vin Snapped because her life had had so many traumatic points. The first traumatic event in Vin's life we know of is when her freako mom Spiked her and killed her sister.

 

Also, someone probably already said this, but Sazed did not "swap" cadmium and bendalloy with atium and malatium. Atium and malatium were mistakenly placed in the Allomantic table as they are not from Scadrial. That's why when you include those (lerasium included) in the list of Allomantic metals, you get 19, not 16. They were not supposed to be in the table in the first place.

 

I'm sure I recall this; in-book, they casually do mention "Vin's life was so horrible, who knows when she Snapped", but I think in an annotation Mr. Sanderson does specifically say it was technically her birth itself that was so hard, she Snapped. Again, hardly matters, I'm just saying, that's why people say it.

 

Er.... atium isn't of Scadrial? Come again? Do you mean it's not of the Physical realm? Cuz it absolutely is of Scadrial. Atium is Ruin's "body", and Ruin is Invested in Scadrial. It is as "from Scadrial" as anything is.

 

No native Scadrian by the time of Hero of Ages, or for that matter by the time of Alloy of Law, knows about all 16 mundane metals (that we know of, it's possible someone down south knows). I'm not sure if you mean the "table" as in how we the readers look at it, or if you're saying there's a "table" that they use in-universe. The God Metals get their own charts; the mundane chart has 16 metals, two of which no one in North Scadrial has ever seen or used (again, to the best of our knowledge. Is that an acronym yet? TTBOOK?)

[Satsuoni]

About Vin, this is from the book:

 

What made him choose this girl? Was it because she was a Mistborn? Was it because she had Snapped so early in life, coming to her powers even as she went through the pains of the unusually difficult labor her mother went through to bear her?

[Kurkistan]

My mistake, then.

[Aether]

I'm sure I recall this; in-book, they casually do mention "Vin's life was so horrible, who knows when she Snapped", but I think in an annotation Mr. Sanderson does specifically say it was technically her birth itself that was so hard, she Snapped. Again, hardly matters, I'm just saying, that's why people say it.

 

Er.... atium isn't of Scadrial? Come again? Do you mean it's not of the Physical realm? Cuz it absolutely is of Scadrial. Atium is Ruin's "body", and Ruin is Invested in Scadrial. It is as "from Scadrial" as anything is.

 

No native Scadrian by the time of Hero of Ages, or for that matter by the time of Alloy of Law, knows about all 16 mundane metals (that we know of, it's possible someone down south knows). I'm not sure if you mean the "table" as in how we the readers look at it, or if you're saying there's a "table" that they use in-universe. The God Metals get their own charts; the mundane chart has 16 metals, two of which no one in North Scadrial has ever seen or used (again, to the best of our knowledge. Is that an acronym yet? TTBOOK?)

I in particular talk a lot about "the Allomantic Chart". By this I do not mean to imply that Shards are sitting around drawing up charts and tables and figuring out the best way to scientifically (-ish) set up their magic systems (much like Brandon himself does, come to think of it), but that there clearly are some groupings and similar tendencies that seem intentionally designed.

[Oudeis]

I in particular talk a lot about "the Allomantic Chart". By this I do not mean to imply that Shards are sitting around drawing up charts and tables and figuring out the best way to scientifically (-ish) set up their magic systems (much like Brandon himself does, come to think of it), but that there clearly are some groupings and similar tendencies that seem intentionally designed.

 

Ah. Presumably this isn't what Journi meant, since he/she speaks of atium being put on it erroneously. If it's a nebulous thing that sort of emerges from the sea foam, it's hard to think of a metal being on it erroneously.

[Aether]

Ah. Presumably this isn't what Journi meant, since he/she speaks of atium being put on it erroneously. If it's a nebulous thing that sort of emerges from the sea foam, it's hard to think of a metal being on it erroneously.

I was just referring to the use of "table" in general. I wanted to clear up what I think most of us - myself included - mean by it.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis]

I was just referring to the use of "table" in general. I wanted to clear up what I think most of us - myself included - mean by it.

 

Cool, that's how I use it, too. My question was specifically towards one instance of its use.