Theory: Shards Can't Alter Their Magic Systems

[Aether he/him]

Weighing in finally on the topic an offhand comment of mine prompted.. swapping out metals and changing Snapping seem like rather large adjustments to the system to me. No, I don't think Shards can change the framework, but throwing different paint on the walls certainly changes the room, at least from the inside. Clumsy analogy, but that's pretty much how I see it.

I think this has been stated already (by myself and others), but it seems to be a common misconception that Sazed "swapped out" some of the allomantic metals. Nicrosil/Chromium and Cadmium/Bendalloy were always a part of the allomantic table, and Atium and Lerasium - known as "the God metals" -  never were. The former were simply unknown during tLR's era; partly because he was actively suppressing information and partly because they didn't have the technology to produce them at that time; the latter assumed to fit into the table (although Lerasium was unknown too). What Sazed did to Allomancy was to change how snapping worked and to point out the fallacy of placing Atium on the table, as well as hint at the existence these unknown metals.

 

 

Second note: we don't know that Sazed didn't change Hemalurgy at all. We have zero knowledge of how Hemalurgy works after he became Harmony. Maybe taking powers is less harmful now. Maybe it's not. We just don't have any knowledge about it.

 

He might have; we don't know. But what should be pointed out (and has been) is that he didn't really need to. Hemalurgy has largely been forgotten at this point (though knowing Brandon, it will resurface), and why fix that which ain't even known to exist?

 

Also, unless Vin's sister also Snapped during her childbirth, one does not need to be Snapped to be a valid Hemalurgic donor for Allomancy spikes. The fact that Hemalurgy can be used from conception onwards seems to confirm that.

Different metal spikes steal different things. The Kandra Blessing spikes specifically steal human attributes, not allomantic or feruchemical powers. If you stab someone with an Iron spike, it will steal their physical strength; if the process causes them to Snap into a pewter misting, your iron spike can't steal that, because it takes a steel spike to steal an Allomantic physical ability. I suppose if you stab someone in the right theftpoint with a steel spike, you can gamble that the stabbing will cause them to Snap, and then steal the newly-awakened pewter, but I think Snapping requires that you survive a near-death experience, not simply die. That's character knowledge in the book, not proven metaphysics, so it's less-than-perfect canon.

Agreed. Snapping only awakens the latent allomantic potential. Anyone who hasn't snapped yet are still allomancers, but with powers that hasn't expressed themselves yet. I do believe Hemalurgy is stealing the part of the soul that has the potential, not necessarily the expressed ability.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Aether

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think this has been stated already (by myself and others), but it seems to be a common misconception that Sazed "swapped out" some of the allomantic metals. Nicrosil/Chromium and Cadmium/Bendalloy were always a part of the allomantic table, and Atium and Lerasium - known as "the God metals" -  never were. The former were simply unknown during tLR's era; partly because he was actively suppressing information and partly because they didn't have the technology to produce them at that time; the latter assumed to fit into the table (although Lerasium was unknown too). What Sazed did to Allomancy was to change how snapping worked and to point out the fallacy of placing Atium on the table, as well as hint at the existence these unknown metals.

 

Leras definitely messed with snapping (at least mist-snapping) a bit. As I said earlier in the thread, Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings were not snapped by the mistsickness.

[Oudeis he/him]

Also, unless Vin's sister also Snapped during her childbirth, one does not need to be Snapped to be a valid Hemalurgic donor for Allomancy spikes. The fact that Hemalurgy can be used from conception onwards seems to confirm that.

 

...Conception?

[Kurkistan he/him]

...Conception?

 

Source:

SATSUONI ()

From which stage of development does human embryo on Scadrial gain Hemalurgic potential?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Conception.

 

Though the question remains as to whether or not the only "Hemalurgic potential" a fetus has is their human attributes/not-allomancy.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni he/him]

Yep

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#4

Edit: ninja'd by a couple of seconds

Anyway, I am pretty sure all the soul is formed at that time, including Allomancy . And you coul probably make a sentient cat by human attributes alone...

Edited December 5, 2013 by OOkla the Felinicious

[Oudeis he/him]

I have trouble imagining the theftpoints four cells might present with, let alone the hemalurgic spike that could penetrate it.

[Vortaan he/him]

I think this has been stated already (by myself and others), but it seems to be a common misconception that Sazed "swapped out" some of the allomantic metals. Nicrosil/Chromium and Cadmium/Bendalloy were always a part of the allomantic table, and Atium and Lerasium - known as "the God metals" -  never were. The former were simply unknown during tLR's era; partly because he was actively suppressing information and partly because they didn't have the technology to produce them at that time; the latter assumed to fit into the table (although Lerasium was unknown too). What Sazed did to Allomancy was to change how snapping worked and to point out the fallacy of placing Atium on the table, as well as hint at the existence these unknown metals.

 

Pretty much what Kurk said. At the very least, Leras made it so the mists wouldn't snap Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings. It also seems likely, to me at least, that Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings couldn't snap normally either. Just one with an interest in metallurgy could have ruined Leras' whole plan. Hrm. I wonder what Seers would have become if Leras hadn't changed that aspect of the mists. Sliders?

[bartbug he/him]

Or there were Cadmium and Bendalloy mistings? I mean, no one had access to those metals, so no one would know. They'd kind of be like Aluminum Gnats.

[Vortaan he/him]

Or there were Cadmium and Bendalloy mistings? I mean, no one had access to those metals, so no one would know. They'd kind of be like Aluminum Gnats.

 

Hence the comment about one Misting with an interest in metallurgy. It just seems like a possible loose end. Honestly, I'm not even sure that it makes sense for Mistborn to be able to burn bendalloy/cadmium pre-Harmony, or else why doesn't Rashek ever do it? Is the technology for bendalloy that far out his reach?

[Oudeis he/him]

My theory is that there was no technology to mine bendalloy cadmium. I think he knew about it, and in fact used it. I think he was able to get a sample and set up a machine at the southern pole that burned Bendalloy cadmium in a massive bubble to keep his genetic reserve safe from the ravages of time, and that this machine is what they found that taught them how to mechanically access the allomantic properties of metal. The original machine, crafted by a literal god, worked at such efficiency and with such a supply that it could handle such a large bubble for so long at even greater time dilation than normal bendalloy cadmium is capable of, but the knock-offs that the humans made based on their observations of the god-machine are much more reasonable in power.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Ookla the Confuzified Esq

[Satsuoni he/him]

Um. Bendalloy, Darnam?

[Aether he/him]

Pretty much what Kurk said. At the very least, Leras made it so the mists wouldn't snap Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings. It also seems likely, to me at least, that Cadmium/Bendalloy mistings couldn't snap normally either. Just one with an interest in metallurgy could have ruined Leras' whole plan. Hrm. I wonder what Seers would have become if Leras hadn't changed that aspect of the mists. Sliders?

Do we even know how Snapping works? From what I understand, there aren't necessarily any external signs that anyone has Snapped, and that it is the subsequent ingestion of metals and attempt at burning them that tells them if they're Allomancers or not. I believe that there were Bendalloy/Cadmium and Chromium/Nicrosil Mistings during the Final Empire, but without the metals to experiment with, they are about as useful as Atium Mistings during The Alloy of Law era.

 

The only thing Preservation screwed around with was his mist and how it didn't snap Bendalloy/Cadmium and Chromium/Nicrosil Mistings (although they could hypothetically snap on their own).

 

EDIT: Seers only had the potential to become Seers. Leras didn't change what type of Misting people had the potential to become. He only didn't include Sliders, Pulsers, Nicrobursts and Leechers in his mist-snapping.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis he/him]

Um. Bendalloy, Darnam?

 

 

::headdesk::

 

Cadmium.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Do we even know how Snapping works? From what I understand, there aren't necessarily any external signs that anyone has Snapped, and that it is the subsequent ingestion of metals and attempt at burning them that tells them if they're Allomancers or not. I believe that there were Bendalloy/Cadmium and Chromium/Nicrosil Mistings during the Final Empire, but without the metals to experiment with, they are about as useful as Atium Mistings during The Alloy of Law era.

 

The only thing Preservation screwed around with was his mist and how it didn't snap Bendalloy/Cadmium and Chromium/Nicrosil Mistings (although they could hypothetically snap on their own).

 

EDIT: Seers only had the potential to become Seers. Leras didn't change what type of Misting people had the potential to become. He only didn't include Sliders, Pulsers, Nicrobursts and Leechers in his mist-snapping.

 

You're beliefs are quite possibly accurate, but it's always best to be sure and keep phrasing things as speculation, rather than fact.

[Moogle]

Do we even know how Snapping works?

 

Based on the WoR back cover, it seems that something traumatic happens to you, which results in a "cracked soul", in which something else can fit. In Mistborn's case, Allomancy. I think it would be reasonable to suspect that Sazed could change Snapping to make the 'cracks' required to be very small, perhaps to the point that birth would be enough to Snap you.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Here's some sources on Snapping:

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-Mistborn-3-Chapter-Seventy/

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#9

[Aether he/him]

You're beliefs are quite possibly accurate, but it's always best to be sure and keep phrasing things as speculation, rather than fact.

You are right, I could have aspired to be a little less cocksure in that last paragraph, as well as in the edit.

 

Based on the WoR back cover, it seems that something traumatic happens to you, which results in a "cracked soul", in which something else can fit. In Mistborn's case, Allomancy. I think it would be reasonable to suspect that Sazed could change Snapping to make the 'cracks' required to be very small, perhaps to the point that birth would be enough to Snap you.

The nature of Snapping do seem a bit clearer, yes, but what I was referring to was specifically whether or not there are any external signs when a Snapping has taken effect. Can you know if you're now able to burn metals before you actually try to do so? If the answer is no, then there are quite possibly still Seekers Seers in the Alloy of Law era, plus Mistings for all the alloys of Atium, and there almost certainly then would have been Sliders, Pulsers, Leechers and Nicrobursts during the Lord Ruler Era (although Leras apparently didn't make these Mistings part of the ones he made the Mists Snap).

 

EDIT: Thanks, Darnam. Mixed them up a bit there.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis he/him]

The nature of Snapping do seem a bit clearer, yes, but what I was referring to was specifically whether or not there are any external signs when a Snapping has taken effect. Can you know if you're now able to burn metals before you actually try to do so? If the answer is no, then there are quite possibly still Seekers in the Alloy of Law era, plus Mistings for all the alloys of Atium, and there almost certainly then would have been Sliders, Pulsers, Leechers and Nicrobursts during the Lord Ruler Era (although Leras apparently didn't make these Mistings part of the ones he made the Mists Snap).

 

Sidenote: Presumably you meant Seers, not Seekers.

 

Except that it's strongly implied, once the good guys figure out that the mists are Snapping people, that only one group of people couldn't burn any tested metal, and that whole group was shown to be able to burn atium. So everyone the mist was responsible for Snapping seems to be accounted for, without people we know Snapped but can't burn any of the metals accounted for.

[Aether he/him]

Sidenote: Presumably you meant Seers, not Seekers.

 

Except that it's strongly implied, once the good guys figure out that the mists are Snapping people, that only one group of people couldn't burn any tested metal, and that whole group was shown to be able to burn atium. So everyone the mist was responsible for Snapping seems to be accounted for, without people we know Snapped but can't burn any of the metals accounted for.

According to Brandon's annotations, Leras whole intention with the Mist Snapping was to a) give them an edge by letting them get access to potential Allomancers and give a clue to the nature of this by making it an unnatural and ordered percentage of the people exposed to the Mists. According to WoB, there are many unknown alloys of Atium, and presumably there would be Mistings for these as well. However, Leras did not Snap these. In conclusion, there is already a precedent for leaving people out of the Mist Snapping, and it would them be reasonable to assume that he'd leave out the already existing - but unknown - Mistings of the the unattainable metals.

 

In addition, Brandon has stated that Harmony could make modifications (can't remember the word he used right now), but not major changes to the magic system. To be adding two new allomantic metals and their alloys - four new Mistings - to the allomantic table seems like a huge overhaul to me. No, I am almost certain that Cadmium/Bendalloy and Nicrosil/Chromium was already part of the Allomantic table by Harmony's ascension.

 

EDIT: Lol. Writing b ) without the space apparently makes that smiley face. But it is so awesome that I'll leave it.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Aether

[Moogle]

there are many unknown alloys of Atium, and presumably there would be Mistings for these as well.

 

This, to me, is the big issue. Can you be a natural Misting of any kind of metal? (Follow question: is the type of Misting you will Snap into determined at birth or when you Snap? Can it be detected?) My current theory is that the Preservation specifies the allowed types of Snapped Mistings, and that there can only be 16 at any given time (though Preservation could constantly swap the metals, I suppose). Of course, any already-Snapped Mistings will retain their type if Preservation changes the system. I am not all certain, but that was why I made the thread.

 

To be clear: I don't think Harmony created Bendalloy/Cadmium, I just think he might have set the 'allowed Mistings' setting on Allomancy to include those two metals, and removed Atium/Malatium Mistings at the same time (because there must always be 16 allowed types).

 

As far as I know, there is no WoB on this particular issue. Because of that, I don't necessarily agree with your assertion that Mistings of the more rare metal types were left unsnapped. I think it could be that every single Misting was snapped by the mists, and that Leras just set the 'allowed' types of Misting to be of the more common metals + atium/malatium.

 

I don't think there's really anywhere else for this discussion to go until there's a WoB.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Moogle

[Aether he/him]

I'll take a dive into the annotations tomorrow. I seem to remember there is more stuff there that hasn't come up yet in this discussion yet. Maybe we can get a clearer picture then.

[Vortaan he/him]

This, to me, is the big issue. Can you be a natural Misting of any kind of metal? (Follow question: is the type of Misting you will Snap into determined at birth or when you Snap? Can it be detected?) My current theory is that the Preservation specifies the allowed types of Snapped Mistings, and that there can only be 16 at any given time (though Preservation could constantly swap the metals, I suppose). Of course, any already-Snapped Mistings will retain their type if Preservation changes the system. I am not all certain, but that was why I made the thread.

 

 

Well, Vin's sister gives us a clue to this, I think. Unless she Snapped when she was being born, she was an unSnapped Seeker, and the spike took that ability from her. If she had instead just been an unSnapped Misting, I think it would have been a bit harder to get Vin's mother to hit the exact right point to steal the exact right power.

[Aether he/him]

I'll take a dive into the annotations tomorrow. I seem to remember there is more stuff there that hasn't come up yet in this discussion yet. Maybe we can get a clearer picture then.

I can make this exceedingly long if I have to, but I'll try to do it short:

 

 

There are 16 allomantic metals. Atium, despite of what was believed during the Lord Ruler's era, was never part of the allomantic metals¹, as it is of Ruin and works slightly differently. The "proper" Allomantic metals are what Allomancers burn to get access to Preservation's (later Harmony's) power². Atium, on the other hand, is (a small amount of) Ruin's power, and is metabolised directly in order to fuel its allomantic effects³. This means then, that the newly discovered metals were always a part of the Allomantic table, with Nicrosil/Chromium being the external opposites of Duralumin/Aluminum and Cadmium/Bendalloy the external opposites of Gold/Electrum.

 

Now, there whether or not the Mistings of these Metals existed prior to Harmony's ascension might be subject to debate, but there is an unquestionable precedent for unwitting Mistings⁴, although it seems likely that these were not Snapped by the Mists. 

1. "Suffice it to say that Atium isn't, and never was, what people thought it was." <source>

2. "So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy." <source>

3. There is a WoB somewhere stating this, but I can't relocate it right now. I'll try again later.

4. "During the thousand-year reign of the Lord Ruler, how many people were born, Snapped, lived, and died never knowing that they were Mistings, simply because their metals were unknown?"

   - Mistborn: The Hero of Ages, Epigraph for Chapter 72 <source>

[Vortaan he/him]

 

I can make this exceedingly long if I have to, but I'll try to do it short:

 

 

There are 16 allomantic metals. Atium, despite of what was believed during the Lord Ruler's era, was never part of the allomantic metals¹, as it is of Ruin and works slightly differently. The "proper" Allomantic metals are what Allomancers burn to get access to Preservation's (later Harmony's) power². Atium, on the other hand, is (a small amount of) Ruin's power, and is metabolised directly in order to fuel its allomantic effects³. This means then, that the newly discovered metals were always a part of the Allomantic table, with Nicrosil/Chromium being the external opposites of Duralumin/Aluminum and Cadmium/Bendalloy the external opposites of Gold/Electrum.

 

Now, there whether or not the Mistings of these Metals existed prior to Harmony's ascension might be subject to debate, but there is an unquestionable precedent for unwitting Mistings⁴, although it seems likely that these were not Snapped by the Mists. 

 

I'm curious why you keep bringing up Nicrosil/Chromium. We know from Yomen's speech that some people at least suspected the existence of 16 Allomantic metals. The Lord Rule basically suppressed common knowledge of the Enhancement metals, period, but as soon as Yomen is given knowledge of aluminum, he pretty much figure out there have to be four groups of four. The mists Snapped 16% of the population, so they probably Snapped Nicrosil/Chromium mistings, the metals just weren't discovered. By contrast, the mists were probably Snapping atium/malatium mistings to fit into the 16%. 

 

As for the cadmium/bendalloy swap... Leras' whole "leaving 16 metals as a sign to his followers" plan falls apart if you can burn 18 metals. Considering how far sighted he was in other regards, I really don't think he would have left this to chance.

[Aether he/him]

I'm curious why you keep bringing up Nicrosil/Chromium. We know from Yomen's speech that some people at least suspected the existence of 16 Allomantic metals. The Lord Rule basically suppressed common knowledge of the Enhancement metals, period, but as soon as Yomen is given knowledge of aluminum, he pretty much figure out there have to be four groups of four. The mists Snapped 16% of the population, so they probably Snapped Nicrosil/Chromium mistings, the metals just weren't discovered. By contrast, the mists were probably Snapping atium/malatium mistings to fit into the 16%. 

 

As for the cadmium/bendalloy swap... Leras' whole "leaving 16 metals as a sign to his followers" plan falls apart if you can burn 18 metals. Considering how far sighted he was in other regards, I really don't think he would have left this to chance.

I bring them up because there is by no means clear what type of Allomancers that the Mists Snapped. The only things they tested for at Fadrex City was Thugs, Tineyes, Coinshots and Lurchers as those were the only ones immediately useful against the Koloss attack. We don't know how big a portion of the remaining people did not find the metals they could burn. For all we know, the Mists could have ignored the potential Mistings that wouldn't help against Ruin, such as the ones for either useless (Gold, Malatium, Duralumin and Aluminum (maybe also Brass, Zinc, Copper and Bronze) Mistings) or unknown (Chromium, Nicrosil, Cadmium and Bendalloy). We already know that he Snapped a lot of people who would never have snapped on their own, so these might have helped filled out the 16% quota. It was the number itself that was important, not necessarily the number of different types of Mistings Snapped by the Mists.

 

Also, for context, here is the full quote from Yomen:

 

"Fourteen [Allomantic metals] we know of, assuming your lady was right about the metal paired to Aluminum. However, fourteen is not a number of power. Allomantic metals come in sets of two, with groupings of four. It seems likely that there are two more we haven't discovered, bringing the number to sixteen. Two by two by two by two. Four physical metals, four mental metals, four enhancement metals, and four temporal metals."

- From Mistborn: the Hero of Ages, Chapter 70 and page 618 of the paperback edition.