[Shadows of Self Spoilers] The Ars Arcanum

[Ari he/him]

We have WoB that non-lethal hemalurgy is possible, I'll quickly see if it's archived...

 

Yep, at this link, you want question #16:

 

 

Question

Hemalurgy, does the person having the metal shoved through them have to die?

 

Brandon Sanderson

It has to rip off a piece of their soul. That normally results in death.

 

Question

Because I'm thinking you're going a bit into the future, surgery, precise things like that...

 

Brandon Sanderson

It's plausible but-- I mean it would leave the person like-- It's ripping off a piece of their soul. But the same thing happens when you give up your Breath. So you're giving up a piece of your soul. There are-- It's plausible you could take off pieces of a soul without killing the person.

 

Odium not being completely evil, of course, doesn't prevent him from being our SA antagonist. I suspect he's evil enough to get by.

 

Now, if you want a more complicated antogonist, if "Trell" is Autonomy...

 

As for Radiant perks... we actually have no WoB on whether Knights Radiant are exclusively of Honour or whether they're mixed between Honour and Cultivation, so I wouldn't go too far in assuming that the nature of radiant perks is related to a two-shard reaction.

 

(The closest WoB on this I could find follows: (#112 at the link))

 

 

EHyde

So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

 

Likewise, on the other hand, Feruchemy is described in-world as being balanced between Preservation and Ruin. So if these combinatorial perks are actually about the interaction of investiture from multiple Shards and multiple magic systems at the same time... then that implies that a mixed investiture system interacting with a pure investiture system could also have the same effect.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Ari

[Oudeis he/him]

I remember wondering if kandra can interbreed with humans. I could root for a theory about Wayne having kandra blood.

 

This was posited a while ago, and I have the same issue with it now that we know he's got a 'perk' that I did when I first heard that maybe he was part kandra...

 

Why does everything cool have to be Invested?

 

Why can't someone just be skilled, in a purely human way? Why can't someone be awesome or amazing or effective without it having to be "magic"? This is one big complaint I have about a lot of Mr. Sanderson's books. He pays lip service to people like Dox (who was one of the only Crewmembers to die) or Sarene... but almost everyone in every book he writes who has any impact or agency has magic powers. Siri doesn't count because she has no agency; she play-acts at learning some politics, and it's great that she helps her husband be effective, but apart from one realization she doesn't actually do anything herself but get kidnapped and saved dramatically. Adolin is the best with his Shards, Navani is an artifabrian, Eshonai has stormform and is apparently gonna be a Radiant, even Rysn gets a pet larkin. It would be nice if non-powered people didn't get sidelined almost without exception in his books. As it is, the message we're getting is, your worth and value are defined by your magic. If you don't get taken by the Shaod, if your life's dedication doesn't like up to one of then Ideals, if you don't buy a TON of Breaths, or if you're not just born amazing, take a back seat and let the real protagonists handle this.

 

...but his unerring accuracy, remarked upon multiple times in the series to me smacked of the same type of "effect" as Kaladin's uncanny spear mastery. 

 

...but healers require empathy which allows them to "walk in someone else's shoe"...

 

Nah. Kaladin's spear mastery happens literally the moment his hands touch a weapon for the first time. As we see from Wax, it's not even on his first bounty, he's become famous enough that people know what his powers are, and he's still an awful shot. His accuracy is something he had to train for and earn, not something that was just given to him.

 

EDIT: Upon reflection, I suppose he could have gotten the capacity for accuracy, rather than just being handed the skill the way Kaladin was? Which doesn't sound like it needs magic, to me, but I suppose it's possible. Regardless, it's non-analogous to Kaladin.

 

Healers and empathy... is... a fantasy trope, not actually something real. Have you seen the show House? Or Grey's Anatomy? What you need in order to heal others is a functional knowledge of human biology and pharmacology. Empathy is... a nice bonus, as it is in literally any profession where you interact with people, but any sane person would rather have a brilliant surgeon, as opposed to a competent one who will feel really, REALLY bad when you die.

 

Also, the analogy breaks down even within the fantasy trope, because Wayne can't heal anyone but himself.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Oudeis

[DreamEternal]

Healers and empathy... is... a fantasy trope, not actually something real. Have you seen the show House? Or Grey's Anatomy? What you need in order to heal others is a functional knowledge of human biology and pharmacology. Empathy is... a nice bonus, as it is in literally any profession where you interact with people, but any sane person would rather have a brilliant surgeon, as opposed to a competent one who will feel really, REALLY bad when you die.

It has been a long time since I last watched House, but if I remember well he is also a horrible exemple, even if in the opposite direction. Most people would prefer a doctor who cared about healing them more than about being right and proving himself smarter than his colleagues(sp?).

[Oudeis he/him]

...Seriously? If you were told that you had a terminal illness and there was a small percentage chance you'd recover, but here are these two doctors. One is brilliant, and 50% of his patients who go through his treatment survive. The other has a 25% survival rate, but he's very "nice." You actually believe more people will halve their chances of survival, because someone is nice?

[DreamEternal]

...Seriously? If you were told that you had a terminal illness and there was a small percentage chance you'd recover, but here are these two doctors. One is brilliant, and 50% of his patients who go through his treatment survive. The other has a 25% survival rate, but he's very "nice." You actually believe more people will halve their chances of survival, because someone is nice?

I think you are making numbers up. And in real life a doctor who behaved like House wouldnt be very likely to be as efective as House was portrayed to be.

Again, you can't really use House as an exemple for hiw something works in reality, because it is fiction.

[Oudeis he/him]

Okay, but, it's plausible, whereas you're basing your idea off a trope. Medicine is a science. Science doesn't care how much you "like" electrons or pulsars. People can be both brilliant and distant.

 

And it's irrelevant anyway, because this came up when you claimed Wayne must act in a manner consistent with someone who heals other people, when he expressly doesn't.

[DreamEternal]

Okay, but, it's plausible, whereas you're basing your idea off a trope. Medicine is a science. Science doesn't care how much you "like" electrons or pulsars. People can be both brilliant and distant.

I am not saying a doctor who is distant is worse than a very caring one. The opposite is often true, actualy. But House is a blatantly unprofessional doctor who cares more about proving his genius than saving people, if I remember well. In real life, that would hardly work well for the patient.

EDIT: But I agree this is getting out of topic.

And I never said anything about Wayne.

Edited October 12, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Empathy is required for that kind of profession...to an extent. After all you don't devote your life to become a Doctor of medicine because you feel you might like it or it looks interesting (granted there are probably some that do). You do it because you want to help people (for whatever medicine related reason) and want to understand what exactly it is they're going through to offer them the correct treatment/advice etc. The trick is (as Lirin so aptly highlighted to Kaladin and is one of the problems he has yet to deal with) when to stop caring.

 

Actually i think House did care...to a very, very small extent.

 

Perhaps it might be a good question to ask Brandon if there's a similar system between a pre-disposition that attracts a Nahel Spren and what kind of Allomantic/Feruchemical/Twinborn powers you get when Snapping occurs. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Nethseäar he/him]

Why does everything cool have to be Invested?

 

Why can't someone just be skilled, in a purely human way? Why can't someone be awesome or amazing or effective without it having to be "magic"? This is one big complaint I have about a lot of Mr. Sanderson's books. He pays lip service to people like Dox (who was one of the only Crewmembers to die) or Sarene... but almost everyone in every book he writes who has any impact or agency has magic powers. Siri doesn't count because she has no agency; she play-acts at learning some politics, and it's great that she helps her husband be effective, but apart from one realization she doesn't actually do anything herself but get kidnapped and saved dramatically. Adolin is the best with his Shards, Navani is an artifabrian, Eshonai has stormform and is apparently gonna be a Radiant, even Rysn gets a pet larkin. It would be nice if non-powered people didn't get sidelined almost without exception in his books. As it is, the message we're getting is, your worth and value are defined by your magic. If you don't get taken by the Shaod, if your life's dedication doesn't like up to one of then Ideals, if you don't buy a TON of Breaths, or if you're not just born amazing, take a back seat and let the real protagonists handle this.

They're not Cosmere, but have you read The Rithmatist or Steelheart? That's more than lip service.

The rest of this response turned into a long essay, so I'll spoiler-hide it:

Some other Cosmere examples, mostly side characters: (Cosmere spoilers)

Sarene was an excellent non-Invested character (and would not stand being dismissed so easily!), Hrathen was barely Invested, and most of what Hrathen and Raoden do has nothing to do with their Investiture. In fact, one of the great problems of Elantris is solved by drawing a line in the dirt. And since Sarene is the one who inspired that connection, and we know that Elantrians don't suddenly become smarter, we can safely attribute all of that to human ingenuity.

Kaladin's family, much of Bridge Four, and Lhan (the ardent who calls out the Queen Elhokar) are not Invested, yet make a huge difference in their community, in Dalinar's camp, and in Kholinar. For that matter, the ardents in general -- scholars and scribes and teachers -- are good examples of influential non-Invested people. Navani is an artifabrian, yes, but anyone can be an artifabrian, with enough study. And her intelligence and leadership do not come from magic. Neither, by all indications, is Jasnah's scholarship -- she was who she was long before she formed the Nahel bond, and she's largely influential because of her own character (and, of course, because she's the sister of the King, which is a thoroughly human, and not magic-related, thing). Yes, she Soulcasts and Elsecalls, and that's sure convenient, but everything else is her, as far as we know. Likewise, we have no reason to believe that Adolin's ability is from anything other than practice. For sure, even if he becomes a Surgebinder down the road, he is not currently a Surgebinder.

Haverseth (Blue Fingers, in Warbreaker) and his people accomplished all they did without an unusual amount of Investiture (presumably they all still had their initial Breath. But then, technically all Scadrians are also slightly Invested, as are probably all humans in the Cosmere). Llarimar, Lightsong's friend and priest, was not Invested, yet influenced Lightsong for the good. Jewels does her part for the mercenaries while being Drab.

Mennis, in Mistborn, leads the Skaa of his plantation without any Investiture. Demoux's ability was entirely his own, minus the last bit. Cett was influential without being Invested. Pre-Hero of Ages Elend did just fine without Investiture. Claude Aradel in Alloy of Law and Shadows of Self proves himself capable and influential. And Ranette's skill and expertise has nothing to do with her Investiture.

All that said, you've got a point. Most of the problems are solved by Invested people, using their Investiture.

Though, think about it: In the same way that skilled people with means generally dominate human affairs, it makes sense that since Invested people have all kinds of advantages over UnInvested people, they tend to dominate the Cosmere. Magical problems are really, really hard to solve without magic. (potential Way of Kings and Elantris spoilers)

Yes, a naturally skilled person could manage to kill a Shardbearer, Kaladin-style. Yes, a naturally skilled person could have fixed Elantris.

With extreme planning, and with the help of tools and teams and other such assistance, some of the kinds of magical problems presented in the Cosmere might be solved by ordinary people. But usually, in a Sanderson novel, other Invested people have already tried and failed before we see the main characters succeed.

To convince me that these problems are actually as severe as they're supposed to be, and yet have someone without magic solve them, would take a lot of work. Otherwise, if someone without magic could do it, why didn't all the people with magic solve it already? And there can be reasons why, and you can pull off ordinary people solving magical problems, but I don't feel cheated when I get a mind-blowing, internally consistent magical solution instead.

I read Sanderson in large part because I love the magic systems he creates. I want to spend the majority of my time with characters who understand and use the magic. It's a strength of his, and I'm fine accepting that most agents will need magic to be effective. And I'm fine accepting that (Well of Ascension spoilers)

Dox, like Clubs (who has no physical magical enhancement), would die in a fight against koloss. In fact, I would feel cheated otherwise, unless they had hidden themselves, like Breeze.

In my mind, magic is no different from the tools and talents that are also unequally distributed in the real world. Some people have access to education, training, and the funds and connections that enable them to develop and utilize their skills. Others do not. And while I love a good story where those less privileged and capable are still able to make a difference, I don't fault other stories for focusing on those more privileged and capable. Guns, for instance, while demonstrating human ingenuity, do not require one to have said ingenuity to use them. Through little work of their own, one could pick up a gun and have power they have done almost nothing to earn. Of course, one needs to practice to improve their skill with a gun, but this fits the magic analogy well, at least where Sanderson's magic is concerned. Some people are born with physical and mental disabilities, and simply do not have the same base ability as others who were born without those disabilities, and with affinity for certain skills. This is similar to the divide between Invested and non-Invested people. Non-Invested people are still capable of incredible things, but they must accomplish them through much more work and, often, some unorthodox thinking.

Magic might be compared to the affinity that prodigies have in certain fields. Why do stories tend to be about prodigies, and talented, capable people -- especially those talented and capable in spectacular fields -- instead of those who are less capable, or capable in less spectacular ways. Why don't accountants or minimum wage workers often show up as heroes in fiction with epic scope? Why do action and heist movies focus around the almost unbelievably capable and connected few? Because when nations and fortunes are at stake, very particular skills are relevant to solving those problems. And it's fun to experience stories about spectacularly extraordinary people and events. And your average person would be ineffectual in most of those situations, as most non-Invested people would be out of their depth in Sanderson's works. Yes, it's also fun and inspiring to see people solve huge, high-stakes problems with skills that you wouldn't think would be relevant. But it makes sense that most of those problems would be solved conventionally.

Even while that analogy makes sense to me, I do see the point about magic not being inherently human. And again, fair point. Humanity is sufficiently awesome without magic, and that should be -- and has been -- explored in fiction. Even in Sanderson's fiction: The Rithmatist and Steelheart were amazing, wonderful books, because Sanderson convinced me that these ordinary people could solve extraordinary problems where others had failed. And I'd love to see more ordinary people who make significant differences in the Cosmere. But I think Sanderson has done more than you credit him for, especially in those two (or, five, if you count sequels and unreleased sequels) books. And I would not be surprised if he wrote more non-Invested people who do extraordinary things.

For my part, I don't believe Wayne is part Kandra, and would be disappointed if he turned out to be. Perhaps his skill with disguises is an effect of his Twinborn power, but I like to think he's just practiced a lot. It does not, after all, seem to follow from his particular abilities, except that it works well with his time bubble (being able to rapidly change disguises). It definitely does not follow in the same way that Wax's steel bubble follows from his abilities.

On the other hand, it would be fun in Wayne became a Kandra, and I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Nethseäar

[Moogle]

Perhaps it might be a good question to ask Brandon if there's a similar system between a pre-disposition that attracts a Nahel Spren and what kind of Allomantic/Feruchemical/Twinborn powers you get when Snapping occurs. 

 

Your Misting type is determined at birth (conception?). I'll see if I can't find the WoB...

 

Edit:

 

PrncRny

How and when is the type of Misting you become determined? Can you tell what type of Misting you are before you Snap?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

It's determined at birth. The cosmere by combining 3 aspects of self. Your physical self, mental self, and spiritual self. The spiritual self is tied to the Investiture of the world that you come from. When an Allomancer snaps, a piece of their soul is broken and some of that power leaks into them, giving them their abilities.

(source)

Edited October 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

it makes sense that since Invested people have all kinds of advantages over UnInvested people, they tend to dominate the Cosmere.

 

I had a long response mostly written and then I came across this line and almost cried. This is basically what I mean. This unthinking classism. If you're Invested, you have all the advantages. If you're not Invested, on most worlds, you might as well give up. You can be the best at what you do. You can have as much political power as you want. You can be wealthy and clever and beloved. And someone else will be not quite as good as you... but they have magic. And so they win. And everyone accepts that this is true, because it so self-evidently is. And that's what makes me cry. I just wish he'd written a cosmere where we, as the fans, didn't learn from it that Invested people categorically have the advantage over unInvested.

[Nethseäar he/him]

I had a long response mostly written and then I came across this line and almost cried. This is basically what I mean. This unthinking classism. If you're Invested, you have all the advantages. If you're not Invested, on most worlds, you might as well give up. You can be the best at what you do. You can have as much political power as you want. You can be wealthy and clever and beloved. And someone else will be not quite as good as you... but they have magic. And so they win. And everyone accepts that this is true, because it so self-evidently is. And that's what makes me cry. I just wish he'd written a cosmere where we, as the fans, didn't learn from it that Invested people categorically have the advantage over unInvested.

I don't mean to say that it's right or just or good that people with lots of power will tend to have more influence in world-significant events -- only that it makes sense that it would tend to happen, and mirrors our own world. And therefore it makes sense that main viewpoint characters will tend to be Invested, because it's easier for them to be involved in big, dramatic events. It makes sense that if you have Shardplate and a Shardblade, you're likely going to be more successful on the battlefield than if you don't. In the same way that if you have body armor and weapons on a battlefield you're likely going to be more successful than someone who doesn't.

Because when you are, yourself, effectively a gun and an airplane (Coinshot), you objectively have an advantage in combat or travel over everyone who isn't. It's uncomfortable, perhaps, but it's reasonable. Just as someone who isn't paralyzed has an advantage in movement over someone who is -- of course, the paralyzed person may be incredibly intelligent, in which case each is better at one thing than the other. It doesn't mean that one is significant and the other is not. It just means that each will likely shine in different environments. And the kinds of environments magical problems create are the kinds of environments Invested people tend to thrive in, so it makes sense that we see more of them excelling there than elsewhere.

Note that in a world where there are Coinshots and Pewterarms and Tineyes, Elendel's constabulary is still mostly made of non-Invested people, and these people make a huge difference in Elendel.

What I learn from Sanderson's Cosmere novels, over and over again, is that everyone deserves respect and kindness, and it shouldn't matter what ability or privilege you or they have or don't have. With that, unfortunately, is that to many people it does matter, and so there must always be a tension and a struggle, to ensure that the powerful do not abuse those with less power. The Rithmatist and Steelheart are powerful examples of ordinary people striving against villains who have magic and coming out on top.

Another reason I don't find fault in the existing trend is because many characters have had mental challenges to deal with, written so they resonate -- depression, abandonment, abuse, and so forth. Yes, most of these people are Invested. But it's their choices that make them heroes, and their challenges have scaled with their power. The message is still that challenges can be overcome.

Yes, I would love to see a non-Invested person, say, face a Mistborn and win, or be in the right position to intercept the Awakened Commands, or be instrumental in the long-arc endings. It would be wonderful to see how they could pull it off.

[Oudeis he/him]

No one's saying it's right, but it upsets me that this is how it is. Magic is all upside, with no downside. Power with no trade-off. The worst power on Scadrial is allomantic aluminum... which simply means you're otherwise normal.

 

Yes, people with advantages in our world tend to rise to positions of power... but no one is simply born better. They might have been born to the right parents, or in the right country, but they're not genetically inferior. Yes, there are a small group of people who have the misfortune to be born with a regrettable disability, but that's not the same as an equal percentage of people born with inherent super ability.

 

It bothers me that across the Cosmere, "magic" is universally a plus with no minus. Even on the Splinterworlds, Investiture is always something trying to kill humans... but that's because the "bad guys" have all the magic, and humans have zero. Hunters of First of the Sun are able to survive the islands, mostly due to the fact that they have found a way to work with the Invested Aviar.

 

I mean, it's too late now, but it would have been nice if there were something universal in the cosmere that meant anyone with magic had some kind of exploitable disadvantage, some weakness, and that the masses without powers had this one way that they would always be superior. Some way to balance it out. "Ability to be a warm body in a huge organization" is not the same thing as, "I can kill dozens of men without breaking a sweat." And "the bad guy/destiny won't single me out/target me because I don't have powers" is cancelled out by "an Inquisitor might randomly behead me to motivate the hero" or "if I love a powered person, I am now his weakness." Even Vivenna and Marasi; kidnapped/held hostage. Vivenna frees herself with her first ever use of her powers, and Marasi it turns out getting taken was part of the plan so she could use her power on Miles.

 

It's the way the cosmere works. I foresee a future where non-powered people grow more and more resentful. In the Final Empire, it was against the Nobles, who had the lion's share of powers anyway. One day, the common man is going to be fed up with allomantic privilege.

 

EDIT: Rithmatist and Steelheart: Joel beats the Scribbler with the help of two Rithmatists, and the fact that he figures out his kryptonite. And a bucket of acid, I guess. Also, who knows what's up with the stick figure he saw; I'm not positive he doesn't have powers. In Steelheart, there are already two Epics on the team killing Epics, and the rest of them use donated powers. When they're not using donated powers, they're using crazy super tech derived from the corpses of Epics. They're not ordinary people beating Epics, they're Epics (sometimes using Epic-tech) to beat Epics.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Oudeis

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Empathy is required for that kind of profession...to an extent. After all you don't devote your life to become a Doctor of medicine because you feel you might like it or it looks interesting (granted there are probably some that do). You do it because you want to help people (for whatever medicine related reason) and want to understand what exactly it is they're going through to offer them the correct treatment/advice etc. The trick is (as Lirin so aptly highlighted to Kaladin and is one of the problems he has yet to deal with) when to stop caring.

 

Actually i think House did care...to a very, very small extent.

 

Since I spawned this diversion musing on how Wayne's abilities mesh together for a perk, I want to add a couple of thoughts... First, you guys know that House is based off of Sherlock Holmes, right? Cosmerically speaking, he is more akin to Taravangian on a smart day than other healers in temperament. Second, I disagree that healers with empathy is a fantasy trope, it is more widespread than just fantasy, and that is because it is an easily recognizable thing for people, which means that it is generally true in reality. We expect our healers (of whatever stripe) to empathize with our situation and heal us and are angered when they don't seem to care. 

 

Either way, you are correct that Wayne's healing is self only and it is a stretch to go from his healing to "healers" to empathy, but that doesn't mean that it's not correct. You can see his incredible empathy just in the fact that he has continued to send money to the family of his one gun kill and, (SoS spoiler)

goes and gives the money to the girl every month now in person

Now some of that is guilt, but guilt and empathy go hand in hand. We are told in the AA that there are "perks" for combining metallic arts and Wayne is Twinborn, so we know therefore he should have a perk. His most amazing non-magic ability is his social camouflaging ability. While it may also just be a natural skill, I think it's his perk. 

 

Maybe I was subconsciously back linking his ability to self heal (the only kind of Metallic art specifically of healing) with his oversized empathy on display in the texts, but he is definitely empathetic to a greater degree than most, which to me, drives his ability to inhabit the persona of pretty much anyone he is around in very little time. To me those are both attributes of his Metallic arts. Add on to that the fact that: (SoS spoiler)

MeLaan, an ancient creature who impersonates by nature, is impressed at Wayne's ability. And perhaps the foremost impersonater of the Kandra people, Paalm, is NOT as good at it as Wayne...

to me screams investiture support in someway shape or another.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Argent he/him]

@Green Hoodie Mistborn, those spoiler tags didn't work (you can't specify what the spoiler is for inside the tag, not on this forum at least).

 

And on the topic of whether magic users do all the interesting things, let's take it out of this thread. It's a pretty big derailment, I think. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

It bothers me that across the Cosmere, "magic" is universally a plus with no minus. Even on the Splinterworlds, Investiture is always something trying to kill humans... but that's because the "bad guys" have all the magic, and humans have zero. Hunters of First of the Sun are able to survive the islands, mostly due to the fact that they have found a way to work with the Invested Aviar.

 

Sorry to double post, didn't want this lost in an edit...

 

Aluminum universally messes with Investiture... and can be used by normal people to combat magics. At least as far as we've seen on Scadrial thus far. Silver (Threnody) and Ralkalest (Sel) also have effects on their local magic systems to negate or destroy it. 

[Asperity he/him]

Empathy is required for that kind of profession...to an extent.

 

This has actually been discussed in previous classes of mine. Evidently, sociopaths often become doctors, likely relishing the thrill of possessing control over somebody's life--essentially holding someone's life in their hands. Not necessarily a malicious avenue but still interesting trivia.