Lack of Spren in Dalinar flashbacks?

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

So on my recent re-read of WoK I noticed something, or maybe noticed something, I could be wrong. But during all of the Dalinar flashbacks (at least the ones in Way of Kings) I don't think I noticed any Spren. Now there is one line where Dalinar thinks that if it weren't so dark, he's sure he'd see Fearspren around the people around him, but it doesn't mention him directly seeing Spren (IIRC)

Now this may just be nothing, or coincidence, but I know we love our Theories here. So my theory is: Dalinar's flashbacks are before the Shattering of Honor, or something along those lines. I'm not sure what the exact implications are here, but I do think it's interesting.

And this is a half-assed, crackpot theory/idea so feel free to blow holes in it if you think I am way off base.

[Scott]

So on my recent re-read of WoK I noticed something, or maybe noticed something, I could be wrong. But during all of the Dalinar flashbacks (at least the ones in Way of Kings) I don't think I noticed any Spren. Now there is one line where Dalinar thinks that if it weren't so dark, he's sure he'd see Fearspren around the people around him, but it doesn't mention him directly seeing Spren (IIRC)

Now this may just be nothing, or coincidence, but I know we love our Theories here. So my theory is: Dalinar's flashbacks are before the Shattering of Honor, or something along those lines. I'm not sure what the exact implications are here, but I do think it's interesting.

And this is a half-assed, crackpot theory/idea so feel free to blow holes in it if you think I am way off base.

 

This is generally agreed upon as true.  Almost all of the visions are things that Honor has witnessed.  At least one vision comes after Honor was splintered, where Dalinar and Tanavast stand on a rocky plain and see a massive storm eradicate the land around them.  I'm not sure what the consensus is on the Recreance vision being before or after.

 

e/ changed "shattered" to "splintered"

Edited November 14, 2013 by Scott

[The Count he/him]

This plays right in to the hands of a theory I subscribe to:

 

Before Honor was splintered, there was only bond spren & symbiotic spren. That is spren who could form a Nahel bond with Humans or had a symbiotic relationship with the various native races and creatures of Roshar.

 

After the splintering, the remains of Honor became all the rest of the spren.

 

Hence they are so prevalent now and were not in the time of the flashbacks.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course a far more simple explaination for the lack of spren in the flashbacks is that Tanavast just did not put them in his recordings... but I never let simplicity get in the way of a good theory... so I discount this  

Edited November 14, 2013 by MadRand

[name_here]

We've gone back and forth on this one a lot. Personally, I don't read too much into the absence of Spren; they aren't always visible and if they were particularly conspicuously absent I expect Dalinar would have noticed. So they may or may not have existed.

 

That said, I think every vision except the last one happened before Honor got shattered.

[Moogle]

It could be that spren are like Mistborn's metals to the Shards, and they're basically invisible and/or Honor couldn't 'replicate' them in the vision.

 

This makes me wonder why the Radiant was able to speak to Dalinar. Surely Honor must have some issues with essentially creating then killing off masses of humans in visions? Or perhaps it wasn't a simulation, but an alternate past or something like what gold/malatium show and thus it wasn't 'real'? Hrm. This seems like a huge ethical issue for me all of a sudden. (Taravangian for world emperor! Honor kills off entire worlds, whilst Taravangian just kills off the terminally ill! Say no to Desolations and elect Taravangian today.)

[Shardlet he/him]

Metals were not invisible to Ruin and Preservation.  They were exceedingly bright.  So much so, that they could not see anything in proximity of large amounts of metals.

[Moogle]

I'm aware, which is why I wondered if he perhaps couldn't 'replicate' the spren in visions rather than them being invisible (though perhaps they are invisible too, since some spren can do that). We don't have a POV from any of the Roshar Shards, or really any of the Shards but the ones from Scadrial which makes things hard.

 

I'm a fan of the idea that there were not as many spren pre-Splintering since it's basically all but confirmed that spren acted as a release valve for the unbound Shardic energy.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Moogle

[Meg]

So on my recent re-read of WoK I noticed something, or maybe noticed something, I could be wrong. But during all of the Dalinar flashbacks (at least the ones in Way of Kings) I don't think I noticed any Spren. Now there is one line where Dalinar thinks that if it weren't so dark, he's sure he'd see Fearspren around the people around him, but it doesn't mention him directly seeing Spren (IIRC)

Now this may just be nothing, or coincidence, but I know we love our Theories here. So my theory is: Dalinar's flashbacks are before the Shattering of Honor, or something along those lines. I'm not sure what the exact implications are here, but I do think it's interesting.

And this is a half-assed, crackpot theory/idea so feel free to blow holes in it if you think I am way off base.

 

Dalinar thought in his vision that "it was too dark to see the fearspren he suspected were climbing up through the ground." This tells us that Dalinar is aware of spren though there were no spren mentioned linked to Dalinar elsewhere in TWoK. But, uh, this is a side note .

 

So you're right, he only "suspected" there were spren.

 

I for one think that the "lack of spren" in Dalinar's visions is not important. We know that there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation went there:

 

 

So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there.  Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own.  So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense?  You have seen other splinters.

source (at the very end of that post; emphasizes mine) 14th October 2013

 

 

So there were spren, Splinters of Adonalsium, on Roshar prior to Honor and Cultivation's arrival. I'm quite sure they weren't gone while Honor lived there. Based on this information I think the seemingly "lack" of spren is only a "lack" of mentioning.

 

We already knew that Roshar hadn't had the same problem with "mindless Shard-power" as had Sel. I mention this because by typing this post I found me asking: Did those Splinters of Adonalsium (spren), too, act as release valves? I refer to this information:

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

 

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

source March 2013

 

 

I want to say: Spren were and are an important part of Roshar, and this makes me still more confident in my thinking that they just hadn't been mentioned in the visions told in TWoK. There were more important things for Honor to tell to Dalinar.

 

Is this understandable?

[Shardlet he/him]

I think the fact that spren were not identified by Dalinar does not necessarily mean that they are not there.  But, I think it is something to be aware of and keep an eye on.  Same goes for Shinovar (except I think I recall Rysn commenting on the lack of spren).

[Gloom he/him]

“Riverspren?” the knight asked, stepping up beside him.
WoR - Dalinar Flashback

 

Spren existed, but Dalinar apparently only mentions them when their appearance is of consequence.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

In the quote Meg cited above, it says Odium left behind some power and that to a large extent, those remnants are now mindless. I'm not so sure about this, but could it be that the mindless spren are of Odium??

[Meg]

Ah, Mailliw, sorry, I cut this quote out of a longer quote (you can see it if you look at the source). The mentioned remnants are those from (the shattered) Devotion and Dominion on Sel. I apologize for the confusion. Thus I think that the mindless spren on Roshar aren't of Odium, too.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Oh, okay. I didn't really believe that anyway, it just popped in my head as I read that. Sorry for the confusion.