What makes the Honorblades more powerful? (spoilers)

[Two McMillion he/him]

I've heard it discussed and assumed on the forums many times before that the Honorblades are/were more powerful than ordinary Shardblades. Now the thing is, Shardblades are already pretty powerful, at least from a sword perspective. It would be really have to have a better sword than a Shardblade. This got me wondering what exactly it might mean if the Honorblades are more powerful.

 

One option is that they might be able to slice through ordinary Shardblades. I don't like this option, because the fights will be less dramatic. Another option might be that they can cut through Plate more easily than normal Blades. I suspect this is true, but if that's all there is to it, it would be rather lackluster. Which brings me to my idea.

 

There were ten Heralds, and ten orders of the KR, each associated with a Herald. It isn't much of a stretch to suspect that the Heralds probably had the powers associated with their order. It also isn't much of a stretch to suppose that the Heralds were probably more powerful than the ordinary KR.

 

It is commonly believed that Shardblades are stored in the spiritual realm when not in use. This means that taking up a Shardblade alters your spiritweb in some way. And what else alters your spiritweb? Having magic. Once again, it isn't much of a stretch to guess that it might be possible for a Blade to alter your spiritweb in more substantial ways.

 

I believe this is what makes the Honorblades more powerful. They alter your spiritweb to bring you more in alignment with the Radiant the blade belongs to. If you're a KR, you become more powerful. If you're not a KR, what happens?

 

There's been speculation that Szeth has a Honorblade. We know he has at least some of the powers of a Windrunner, yet does not have a spren. I believe this is the explanation: Szeth indeed has an Honorblade, the blade of the Herald associated with the Windrunners. His taking up the Honorblade altered his spiritweb and gave him his powers. This is why he has no spren, and perhaps not the complete set of abilities.

 

This would also explain why it was the act of leaving their Blades in the ground that was so significant to the Heralds- they were literally giving up all (or almost all) of the power that made them special.

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Two McMillion

[Leonardus he/him]

Your ideas are actually quite sound in my opinion and it also ties in with the the whole Szeth has a honorblade theory, Perhaps another use of an honorblade is that it acts like the Oaths Kaladin swears by increasing your Surgebinding abilities by a ton?

[Argent he/him]

Sound logic. I can't agree only because we have seen so little, and modeling data out of only a couple of data points is bad practice. But your methodology is sound.

[bartbug he/him]

Me gusta.

[Gloom he/him]

I believe that this was the primary motivation behind the idea that Szeth has an Honorblade, and that it was Jezriens Honorblade in particular. I believe that for a Herald to access the surges, they must be in possession of their Honorblades, when in possession of said blade, they are capable of doing more than a Knight Radiant of the aligned Order. So Jezrien in possession of his Honorblade would be capable of doing anything a Wind Runner could do, as well as some special abilities not accessible to a Knight Radiant. Add to this 99 decades of combat experience, and you have a rather formidable force. This isn't' including those abilities they were granted that didn't require their Honorblades. I'm sure that some people will argue that a Herald can access the surges without their blades, but I believe that the blade replaces a spren bond and acts as the gateway.

[hoser he/him]

I believe this is what makes the Honorblades more powerful. They alter your spiritweb to bring you more in alignment with the Radiant the blade belongs to. If you're a KR, you become more powerful. If you're not a KR, what happens?

Call me confused here.  Should this last paragraph say Herald rather than Radiant in the second sentence? 

If it really should say Radiant then I don't understand, because I believe the Honorblades were around and effective long before there were any Radiants. 

If it should say Herald then the third sentence raises a raft of questions such as, would it change the order of the Radiant if they didn't match or give them another set of surges. But since we know of no case where it has happened, nor the effects, it seems entirely hypothetical. 

We have no idea what the additional powers of the Honorblades are.  If the Heralds were inherently surgebinders, but the swords made them stronger, it would fit the evidence just as well. 

 

There's been speculation that Szeth has a Honorblade. We know he has at least some of the powers of a Windrunner, yet does not have a spren. I believe this is the explanation: Szeth indeed has an Honorblade, the blade of the Herald associated with the Windrunners. His taking up the Honorblade altered his spiritweb and gave him his powers. This is why he has no spren, and perhaps not the complete set of abilities.

It comes to this, which I believed when I thought Szeth had Jezrien's Honorblade.  This seems circular.  Szeth has an honorblade.  Szeth has windrunning powers.  Therefore Honorblades give surgebinding powers.  I don't see any evidence or logic supporting the idea that Honorblades give the Heralds surgebinding.

 

All we really know is that Szeth has windrunning abilities.  They are aligned with the magic system on Roshar, as are the Heralds, the Radiants and the bonding spren. 

If they come from the sword, then they come from the sword, that's all.  If the sword is an Honorblade, then Honorblades provide surgebinding.  If the Stone Shamans made the sword, then Shamanblades provide Surgebinding.  If it's Excalibur, then Excalibur provides surgebinding.  If it's the Sword in the Stone, then the Sword in the Stone (not the same as Excalibur) provides surgebinding.

This would also explain why it was the act of leaving their Blades in the ground that was so significant to the Heralds- they were literally giving up all (or almost all) of the power that made them special.

Well, we know that they are still effectively immortal, so they are not giving up all their power.  They are betraying the purpose that gave them their powers.  They are giving up their place in the Oathpact and contradicting the values that they are supposed to embody.  They are admitting defeat and consigning one of their comrades to even more prolonged (eternal possibly) torture.  Some of these things might be significant to them in addition to giving up the blades. 

Thoughts?

Interesting ending to this post.  I hope it's the server and not my PC.

Fatal error: Out of memory (allocated 0) (tried to allocate 381184304 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

[Fistsofrage]

A lot of unnatural things seem to have a connection to the Nightwatcher, so I'm gonna put that out there. Also, I've always felt that Szeth's shardblade was just an accessory, especially during his assassination of the King of Jah Keved. His windrunner abilities seem to come naturally to him so it might be some random hereditary effect as well. But I think I'll stick with the Nightwatcher or the Old magic having a hand in it.

[ADIMORTIS he/him]

I agree with your theory because even I have the same thing in my mind. I suspect that the Honorblades can change shapes giving Szeth's blade the smaller shape...

[Fistsofrage]

You do realize that by suggesting that Szeth's abilities come from an honorblade, he's suggesting that Szeth somehow has Jezrien's blade? Seems unlikely to me...

[Two McMillion he/him]

You do realize that by suggesting that Szeth's abilities come from an honorblade, he's suggesting that Szeth somehow has Jezrien's blade? Seems unlikely to me...

 

Why does it seem unlikely?

[bookspren]

I like this theory. At first, I resisted the idea that Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade. I thought he was using voidbinding since he's the opposite of leading/protecting. But the more I think about it, the more I am convinced he has the Honorblade. It seems to fit and I love the irony.  If it can power the order's abilities, that is a good explanation of Kalak's statement that Honorblades are superior to Shardblades. ( I wonder, can you voidbind, if you carry an Honorblade?)

Have an upvote.

[dungeonfood he/him]

I have 2 issues with this theory:

1. Word of Brandon has it that Kaladin's Windrunner powers are stronger (or have more potential) than Szeth's.

 

It would seem that if Szeth is holding Jezrien's Honorblade he should have powers stronger than those of a basic Radiant...

 

2. WoR spoilers: 

The Jasnah Prologue, to me, seems to imply that the Honorblade Szeth holds is associated with Shalash, not Jezrien.

"That creature carries my lord's own Blade."

-Ambassador from the west

We can safely say that 'that creature' is Szeth and that 'my lord' is one of the Heralds. I also think we can safely place Shalash and her agents at the palace shortly prior to the king's murder, thanks to all the discussion around Baxil's interlude in WoK and the missing statue in the WoK prologue. The only way this theory would work is if Jezrien had people at the palace that same night- I haven't seen anything about this. Nor have I seen anything about Jezrien having underlings at all.

[Fistsofrage]

Why does it seem unlikely?

 

Finding one Honorblade pretty much equates to finding all of them except Taln's. And since Szeth never left Shinovar until he was sold, that makes it even more strange.

 

And not to spoil or anything, but the shardblade carried by a suspected Herald in a recent interlude wasn't described as anything special so you might assume that any blades currently carried by Heralds would be normal ones.

 

And since carrying an Honorblade links you with that Hell they were so afraid of, that makes it even more unlikely that anyone carries one now.

 

Although I do like the idea of Szeth being sent to purgatory to burn if he dies...and perhaps coming back later as a better person...

Edited November 2, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Guest Alaxel]

I was in the Szeth has an Honorblade camp for a while myself. While I believe that this might be true, I suspect Szeth gains his powers from his Oathstone for this simple, yet elegant reason: Oaths, committing to them and not just saying them, have been known to grant surges while bearing a Shardblade or Plate has not.

Perhaps there is a spren bonded to Szeth, trapped in his Oathstone. Perhaps not. But I believe that is the source of his powers and that bearing the Shardblade is the reason for his punishment.

[Fistsofrage]

I was in the Szeth has an Honorblade camp for a while myself. While I believe that this might be true, I suspect Szeth gains his powers from his Oathstone for this simple, yet elegant reason: Oaths, committing to them and not just saying them, have been known to grant surges while bearing a Shardblade or Plate has not.

Perhaps there is a spren bonded to Szeth, trapped in his Oathstone. Perhaps not. But I believe that is the source of his powers and that bearing the Shardblade is the reason for his punishment.

 

It is a bit of a problem that we haven't had much of a description of the oathstone. And since I don't know much detail about the sealing of spren into spheres, I suppose it's possible. But then again, it does seem strange that a place like Shinovar that seems to have no spren, would use spren in their oathstones.

 

Edit: Do spren only exist in places where highstorms pass and do they require the storm to exist? possible question for Brandon if it hasn't already been asked >.>

Edited November 2, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Moogle]

And not to spoil or anything, but the shardblade carried by a suspected Herald in a recent interlude wasn't described as anything special so you might assume that any blades currently carried by Heralds would be normal ones.

 

It probably was a regular Shardblade. Shallash says in her interlude that she should consider getting a Shardblade. She clearly does not have her Honorblade.

 

The fact that the Heralds appear to be near-immortal, as well as seem to consider getting a Shardblade a fairly simple task, implies to me that they can still Surgebind or have some other powers.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

It probably was a regular Shardblade. Shallash says in her interlude that she should consider getting a Shardblade. She clearly does not have her Honorblade.

 

The fact that the Heralds appear to be near-immortal, as well as seem to consider getting a Shardblade a fairly simple task, implies to me that they can still Surgebind or have some other powers.

Since Baxil's mistress has light eyes, she has presumably had a Radiantblade in the past, if she doesn't have one currently (this assumes that her Honorblade left her eyes dark, as Taln's seems to have done. 

[Argent he/him]

Shallash, if she is Baxil's mistress, doesn't have a Blade currently. She briefly entertains the thought of acquiring one so her quest for art destruction can become easier.

 

But the fact that Taln's eyes are dark raises a good point. We can be certain that he carries an Honorblade, yet his eyes remain dark brown. It's possible to dance around this, but to me it hammers the final nail in the "Szeth carries an Honorablade" coffin.

[hoser he/him]

Shallash, if she is Baxil's mistress, doesn't have a Blade currently. She briefly entertains the thought of acquiring one so her quest for art destruction can become easier.

Or she doesn't want her minions to know that she has one.

Edited November 3, 2013 by hoser

[Gloom he/him]

Finding one Honorblade pretty much equates to finding all of them except Taln's. And since Szeth never left Shinovar until he was sold, that makes it even more strange.

 

This is true, and false at the same time. It's true that at some point in history, all of the Honorblades are likely to have been found together, but it doesn't mean they stayed together. They could have had dozens of wielders over the centuries...of course, if stone shamans went out and recovered these blades whenever their wielders fell, then yes, they would still be together.

 

I was in the Szeth has an Honorblade camp for a while myself. While I believe that this might be true, I suspect Szeth gains his powers from his Oathstone for this simple, yet elegant reason: Oaths, committing to them and not just saying them, have been known to grant surges while bearing a Shardblade or Plate has not.

Perhaps there is a spren bonded to Szeth, trapped in his Oathstone. Perhaps not. But I believe that is the source of his powers and that bearing the Shardblade is the reason for his punishment.

 

No spren for Szeth. This was a pretty clear answer. You can justify that it's in his stone, but generally from what I've seen, when Brandon says no, that's the answer. He didn't try to get Aes Sedai on the answer, he just said Szeth has no spren.

 

Spren can be locked in gemstones. This is a function of symmetry and physical make-up. Szeth oathstone, from what we can see, isn't even made up of a single substance.

 

But the fact that Taln's eyes are dark raises a good point. We can be certain that he carries an Honorblade, yet his eyes remain dark brown. It's possible to dance around this, but to me it hammers the final nail in the "Szeth carries an Honorablade" coffin.

 

And if Dalinar were to pick up Talns Honorblade and have his eyes turn brown while he was holding it, what would that tell you?

[marianmi]

It's pretty probable that Honourblades grant access to radiant-like powers.

 

I think it's clear heralds don't have a spren:

1) you don't want a spren bonded to a herald, since the spren could be killed => the herald would lose his surgebinding abilities;

2) the oathpact (honor + odium) would have implied a freedom of choice for the persons that were to become heralds - i.e. maybe it was a bet if honourable people were to be remain honourable in time - again, you don't want a spren there. The heralds are free to act as they wish, with or without honour. They still have the power. And using Honour's own power in ways that are not honourable most certainly would "kill" honour.

 

On the other hand, with immortality, you don't want to give heralds power that can't be taken away.

Hence, the Honourblades.

 

"Being more powerful than shardblades" would be that - they also grant surgebinding ability. Now, some interesting questions here are:

1) do they grant access to 2 surges, or to all?

which leads to:

2) if they grant access to 2 surges, can one person take all honourblades and have access to all surges?

which leads to:

3) did Honour actually split all of himself into the blades?

which leads to:

4) will Kaladin become master of all honoublades and hence become the new Honour shard?

Edited November 3, 2013 by marianmi

[Fistsofrage]

@Gloom: It is very very doubtful that the honor blades have been separated and possessed by random people over time. You forget that they are connected to that purgatory. Any wielders who died would have joined Taln in the flames. Those blades don't pass to someone else after death.

@Marinami: I have also thought about Kaladin somehow reforging the Honor shard, but I don't think it would be as simple as Kaladin just putting the honor blades together.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Argent he/him]

@hoser, too subtle. She was muttering to herself. take a look at the interlude, it doesn't feel at all like she is being subtle.

 

@Gloom, I'd be very very surprised.

[Gloom he/him]

@Fistsofrage — I would speculate that it all comes down to how you look at it. If I pick up an Honorblade, does that mean that I have made a pact with Honor? If not, then carrying an Honorblade is no guarantee that you would be sent to join Taln who did make a pact with Honor. If I pick up a Radiant Blade, does that make me a Radiant? If so, then the Knights Radiant never fell. If I pick up a piece of a crown, would that make me a king? I don't find it unreasonable that you could wield an Honorblade without being bound to the same conditions as a Herald is. If this were the case, then by wielding an Honorblade, you would become a Herald.

 

@Argent — Ooh, I love surprises, which part would be a surprise? That the Honorblades may be in the possession of someone in Shinovar? That that someone has a great deal of influence over the Stone Shaman? That they provided Szeth with Jezriens Honorblade when he was made truthless? That they loosed him on an unsuspecting land and that he conveniently was in the right place at the right time to be handed off to the Parshendi to assassinate Galivar? I find just about everything about Szeth to be surprising.

[Fistsofrage]

@Fistsofrage — I would speculate that it all comes down to how you look at it. If I pick up an Honorblade, does that mean that I have made a pact with Honor? If not, then carrying an Honorblade is no guarantee that you would be sent to join Taln who did make a pact with Honor. If I pick up a Radiant Blade, does that make me a Radiant? If so, then the Knights Radiant never fell. If I pick up a piece of a crown, would that make me a king? I don't find it unreasonable that you could wield an Honorblade without being bound to the same conditions as a Herald is. If this were the case, then by wielding an Honorblade, you would become a Herald.

@Argent — Ooh, I love surprises, which part would be a surprise? That the Honorblades may be in the possession of someone in Shinovar? That that someone has a great deal of influence over the Stone Shaman? That they provided Szeth with Jezriens Honorblade when he was made truthless? That they loosed him on an unsuspecting land and that he conveniently was in the right place at the right time to be handed off to the Parshendi to assassinate Galivar? I find just about everything about Szeth to be surprising.

We know that discarding the honor blades is what prevented the Heralds from joining Taln in purgatory. The honor blades are key. So if someone else picks up one of the blades, its natural to assume that they have picked up the curse (or w.e you want to call it) with the blade.

The blades are not as desirable as people tend to make them appear, there is a huge weight/responsibility/curse that apparently broke even Jezrien.