LDS Influences on Themes (Theology Time)

[scottwo]

I'd say no correlation exists between the three kingdoms of exaltation and realmatic theory except the number 3. it doesn't feel right to me.

 

 

The 3 Realms remind me more of Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8

 

 

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

 8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

 

LDS belief is that there are at least 2 layers to the universe: spiritual and physical/temporal. The scriptural quote above shows that they are really made of the same thing, but discerned separately to mortals. We do not yet have the "eyes" to see. 

I'm interested in how this will play out in the cosmere. How close Realmatic existence is to this idea. Are the three realms really separate, or are they merely 3 ways of saying the same thing? Will any of our protagonists get to the place where they can observe/effect all 3 realms simultaneously? 

Cognitive shadows are the body-less spirits of those that have died. Some stay, some pass Beyond.

Beyond seems to deviate from LDS thought as even heaven/hell is supposed to be a physical/spiritual place on the same plane of existence as us. Beyond seems to be a one-way door. You can enter, but there's not intermingling with the 3 Realms once you've gone in. It seems like his answer to The Last Question. Things don't just start over, they move on. Eternal progression.

[Triasmus]

The end of mistborn implied

that Elend and Vin had passed on through that door, but then Sazed said that he might try to bring them back in the future when he understands better how to reconnect the cognitive shadows to the physical bodies

Edited April 3, 2015 by Triasmus

[Sirce Luckwielder he/him]

I learned a cool thing from my seminary teacher that I am sure Brandon knows. Going back to how we, LDS members, believe in a three part Godhead, we also believe that Christ created the earth with God the Father's power. The bestowal of this power on Christ was called the Divine Investiture of Authority. That is how Christ could create the world and survive the excruciating pain of the Garden of Gethsemane. I am pretty confident that this is where Brandon got the name for his Investiture system.

[phantasmagorically she/her]

I've always thought surgebinding is a lot like the priesthood, where you can only be worthy of the power if you follow the oaths/commandments - and the way it won't work if you aren't using it to protect.

[Ammanas]

I'm relistening to Elantris so it got me thinking of LDS themes in the cosmere.

One thing is when Hrathan mentions Wyrns message and refers to it as "scripture". It reminds me of how general conference talks and first presency messages in the Ensign become scripture. The whole line of priesthood authority leading to Wrn for Hrathan is also similar to the mormon church line of priesthood authority: bishops serve stake presdents all the way to the prophet. Hrathan was encouraged to write down spiritual experiences in a journal something lds members are told consistently to do.

The big one though is Szeth in SA. He serves because if he doesn't his soul would cease to exist if he doesn't it is better to exist and be tormented for eternity then for his soul to cease to exist. This goes hand in hand with a popular teaching from early in church history of how we are a intelligence, clothed in a spirit, encased in a body. Outer Darkness (the harshest punishment) is a raw naked intelligence cast off into the place where we were first gathered before we evolved (if that's the correct term). My have not read the Szeth sections in a while so people can correct me if wrong. 

I've noticed others, but cant think of it off the top of my head. I realize some of these things will be shared by other religions, but certainly recognizeable to those that are lds. I'm not trying to exclude other religions, but don't feel knowledgeable enough to speak for them.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Ammanas

[Elenion he/him]

3 hours ago, Ammanas said:

I'm relistening to Elantris so it got me thinking of LDS themes in the cosmere.

As the necromancer completed his incantation, the remnants of a thread long-dead returned to the realm of the forums once more. (Usually we don't resurrect threads that have been dead for more than a few months).

 

But while we're on the topic, I'd like to chip in my opinions. To provide context, I'm an active LDS member living in Utah.

Something that stuck out to me in Stormlight Archive was the Vorin "calling" system. "Calling" is a commonly-used LDS noun meaning an assignment in the church, such as being the teacher of a class or the coordinator of a summer camp. Another similar point is the idea intrinsic to the Vorin "calling" system: that a person is born with a specific set of skills that a divine being would like that person to utilize. In LDS doctrine spiritual talents (such as prophecy, healing, interpretation of languages, etc.) are called "gifts of the spirit", and members are encouraged to develop them through practice and prayer.

 

Another parallel that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Vivenna's experiences in Hallandren. Vivenna comes from a village that is painted almost exclusively white (a color which symbolizes both the village's cleanliness from city vices like prostitution and Vivennna's perception of it as a religious haven) and so is shocked at Hallandren's extravagant colors. This has two parallels in LDS doctrine:

1. The idea of "being in the world but not of the world" is an LDS teaching that states that although church members are physically in this world, they should not give into "worldliness" (vanity, lust, pride). Vivenna, upon entering Hallandren, is immediately assailed by the novelties of Hallandren, particularly the city's fashion sense and a certain unwanted bestowal of Breath, both of which are against her religious beliefs. Vivenna's entry into Hallandren highlights her struggle to be "in Hallandren but not of Hallandren".

2. The "great and spacious building". This figurative building comes from the Book or Mormon account of the prophet Nephi's vision of the tree of life. In this vision, many people are making their way to a glorious tree (which the scripture specifies is the "love of God") when suddenly they become conscious of a great building filled with people mocking those that progress toward the tree. Many of those on the path to the tree leave the path and enter the building, where they join the crowd of mockers inside. Vivenna, upon entering Hallandren, feels the pressures of the people there--fashion, Breath, color--and is faced with the choice to either continue on her previous religious "path" or to check her religion at the door city walls.

[A Secret Corner he/him]

9 hours ago, Elenion said:

As the necromancer completed his incantation, the remnants of a thread long-dead returned to the realm of the forums once more. (Usually we don't resurrect threads that have been dead for more than a few months).

 

But while we're on the topic, I'd like to chip in my opinions. To provide context, I'm an active LDS member living in Utah.

Something that stuck out to me in Stormlight Archive was the Vorin "calling" system. "Calling" is a commonly-used LDS noun meaning an assignment in the church, such as being the teacher of a class or the coordinator of a summer camp. Another similar point is the idea intrinsic to the Vorin "calling" system: that a person is born with a specific set of skills that a divine being would like that person to utilize. In LDS doctrine spiritual talents (such as prophecy, healing, interpretation of languages, etc.) are called "gifts of the spirit", and members are encouraged to develop them through practice and prayer.

 

Another parallel that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Vivenna's experiences in Hallandren. Vivenna comes from a village that is painted almost exclusively white (a color which symbolizes both the village's cleanliness from city vices like prostitution and Vivennna's perception of it as a religious haven) and so is shocked at Hallandren's extravagant colors. This has two parallels in LDS doctrine:

1. The idea of "being in the world but not of the world" is an LDS teaching that states that although church members are physically in this world, they should not give into "worldliness" (vanity, lust, pride). Vivenna, upon entering Hallandren, is immediately assailed by the novelties of Hallandren, particularly the city's fashion sense and a certain unwanted bestowal of Breath, both of which are against her religious beliefs. Vivenna's entry into Hallandren highlights her struggle to be "in Hallandren but not of Hallandren".

2. The "great and spacious building". This figurative building comes from the Book or Mormon account of the prophet Nephi's vision of the tree of life. In this vision, many people are making their way to a glorious tree (which the scripture specifies is the "love of God") when suddenly they become conscious of a great building filled with people mocking those that progress toward the tree. Many of those on the path to the tree leave the path and enter the building, where they join the crowd of mockers inside. Vivenna, upon entering Hallandren, feels the pressures of the people there--fashion, Breath, color--and is faced with the choice to either continue on her previous religious "path" or to check her religion at the door city walls.

*A stranger watched as the chanting of one reached to a climax and a green light flashed, and a great moaning was heard. Was it possible, the stranger thought, had such dark necromantic rituals been completed? Yes, they had. As the stranger thought to himself,  he decide that he might as well jump in.*

And yes, especially with Vorinism, Warbreaker, and Elantris's,  LDS/religious undertones are very clear. I recently did a reread of Warbreaker and it was interesting to see again how Brandon explores these themes as a major part of Vivenna's character.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Secrets

[Nethseäar he/him]

Glad to see this thread necro'd -- I considered posting on it way back, but for whatever reason didn't.

 

On 6/22/2015 at 4:58 PM, phantasmagorically said:

I've always thought surgebinding is a lot like the priesthood, where you can only be worthy of the power if you follow the oaths/commandments - and the way it won't work if you aren't using it to protect.

Me, too!

Expanding on this, for non-LDS persons:

In the LDS church, we believe that our ultimate goal -- the reason for this mortal existence -- is to become like God. ("Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." - 3 Nephi 12:48, similar to Matthew 5:48)

Leaving out far too much (seriously, this all makes much more sense in context), we believe that:

We needed bodies, experience, and the opportunity to choose in order to become like God. But once we had bodies, even one wrong action would prevent us from becoming like God, due to Justice. God knew we would all make at least one wrong action. So, we needed Christ, who was specially prepared to never do anything wrong, to perform an infinite Atonement (suffer for all injustice) to let us become like God.

But in order to access the power of the Atonement, we have to agree to Christ's terms, which are designed to give us the necessary experience to become like God, and eventually to justly control power equal to God's power.

Here's what ties into Surgebinding:
 

Spoiler

To show that we agree to Christ's terms, and therefore progress toward becoming like God, we make covenants (two-way promises, "I do this if you do that") with Him. Mostly we promise to live our lives according to His commandments. If we do what we promise God, God will give us greater degrees of His power through the Atonement. Commonly this is in the form of comfort, strength, knowledge/understanding, and forgiveness for/cleansing from sin -- familiar enough things, except perhaps for the last. But we also believe this power has physically healed people and worked Biblical-level miracles among covenant-keeping believers (and enjoy providing anecdotes to this effect).  We access the power of the Atonement through the Holy Ghost, who acts as a conduit between us and God. The Holy Ghost is a being who does not have a body, and therefore is able to be with us spiritually. When we break our covenants, the Holy Ghost must leave us, and we therefore lose access to the power of the Atonement until we repent, at which time the Holy Ghost can return and cleanse us.

Certain groups of people over time (a select subset of the Levites, for instance) have also been allowed access to God's Priesthood. The Priesthood is a term for God's power, and we believe that all miracles that were performed by prophets or apostles or even by Jesus in the Bible were done by the power of the Priesthood. It is also used to enable us to make special covenants with God, such as baptism, and to seal relationships so they can persist after mortality (marriage, family relationships). The power of the Priesthood is impossible to use for evil, and if you break your covenant, you are not able to access the Priesthood, even to do good, until you repent (through the power of the Atonement). 

Summary of how it relates:

Syl is like the Holy Ghost, Oaths are like covenants, Stormlight is like the power of the Atonement, and Surgebinding is like the Priesthood.