Cause of the Recreance

[Argent he/him]

It's what I've been assuming - I never quite understood why everyone had decided that the Heralds were cursed. Their torment - and then its sudden disappearance - would've made for some very interesting experience for them...

[Gloom he/him]

The Theory regarding the curse that was placed upon the Heralds Originates here.

 

Words echoed in the hallway coming from up ahead. “I’m worried about Ash.”

“You’re worried about everything.”

Jasnah hesitated in the hallway.

“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”

It is presumed that 'Ash' is in reference to Shallash.

 

source

 

I don't believe that Cultivation has to give a boon. The Nightwatcher does this for its own reasons, but I don't believe that the Shard is compelled to follow that formula.
 

Edited October 25, 2013 by Gloom

[Argent he/him]

There is a far simpler explanation though - it's the Heralds severed connection with Honor and the Oathpact that's making them worse. Whatever that actually means. I like Occam's razor...

[Gloom he/him]

So you believe that over the course of more than 4000 years, the curse suddenly got worse all of a sudden, and this is an example of Occam's Razor?

[Meg]

At the moment the different Cosmere-"magics" and such are rambling around in my brain:

 

Ash - Shallash - Lightweavers - Illumination | Light/Illuminaton - Aon Ashe

 

Unfortunately I'm not a Returned ... I can have headaches.

 

Edit: This thought comes, too, from a quote which says that all languages in the Cosmere kind of derive from the same (I might have a look for it later).

Edited October 26, 2013 by Meg

[Argent he/him]

Not necessarily suddenly, Gloom. And even if it is a recent thing, we know that many interesting things are going on on Roshar these days - it seems like the Heralds are becoming active again (Shallash, for example, couldn't have been destroying art of herself for 4,500 years; if she had been, there would be none left), Surgebinders are apparently appearing left and right, Honor has triggered the infodump safety protocol, and we might even get a Radiant here and there sometime soon. 

[marianmi]

To note is that Honor did not say anything about heralds in Dalinar's vision... just about KR "returning to men the shards they once bore".

This would be more like "make men more honourable"... then "they will have honour shards" ... but why aren't the heralds specified?

I see them as "tainted" in a way that may be beyond resolve...

Let's not forget that BS kind of said Odium is quite invested in Roshar, and we haven't seen anything yet except the Thrill...

[Scott]

I'm sorry, I don't have a book handy, but I just had a random thought about the "return to men the shards they once bore" quote.  Could Honor be talking about returning the Honorblades to the Heralds?

[Gloom he/him]

Unlikely. I'm basing that on the visions themselves. The visions were of Dalinar interacting with the Knights Radiant. If he wanted Dalinar to restore the Heralds, then I understand why he's a deader after playing head games like that.

[Alterodent he/him]

Not necessarily suddenly, Gloom. And even if it is a recent thing, we know that many interesting things are going on on Roshar these days - it seems like the Heralds are becoming active again (Shallash, for example, couldn't have been destroying art of herself for 4,500 years; if she had been, there would be none left), Surgebinders are apparently appearing left and right, Honor has triggered the infodump safety protocol, and we might even get a Radiant here and there sometime soon. 

 

So the Ta'veren are spun out of the pattern once more....

[ericth]

Since we have WoB that Szeth doesnt get his surgebinding from a spren (or at least an honor spren), perhaps what Darkness perceives as encouraging a desolation is the more standard method of gaining surgebinging, which is a Nahel/spren bond.

[Ethrien he/him]

Very true and quite likely, however Darkness also seems to need legal justification for taking down his targets. Anyone like Lift, with contacts within a nation's leadership could very well be a tricky spot for him. Assassination on the orders of a nations ruler isn't really a criminal offense, just another part of war and politics. If you take it all the way back to Shinovar, Szeth's actions are a result of him following the orders and tenants given to him by the leaders of Stone Shamanism, if they represent the leaders of Shinovar then all of Szeth's actions have come about as a result of following his nations orders, just like any other soldier.

 

Of course just because a crime was truly an act of war doesn't stop countries from putting out arrest warrants. And just because the King of Jah Keved pardons you for crimes commited in Alethkar doesn't mean your free to walk the streets of Kholinar without being arrested. We don't really know enough about how Darkness defines 'Justice', its possible Lift's pardon only protects her from crimes committed in Azish, and Darkness could still try to have her extradited to answer from crimes in other countries; not that he'd succeed while the current Prime lives.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Ethrien

[marianmi]

Lol.

 

Assassination is a criminal offence, no matter who gives the orders.

 

However, I think everyone here mistakes Darkness's purpose. He is not a policeman. He's not going after offenders. He's going after surgebinders. Yes, he needs justification, probably because of his nature (Nalan). But his purpose is going after surgebinders. Not offenders. He has no interest in Szeth because he is not a surgebinder.

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom he/him]

I wouldn't say everyone mistakes Darkness's purpose. I think anyone who read the Lift interlude should be able to reach the conclusion that he is interested finding justification for killing Surgebinders without much difficulty. His purpose however, at least according to him, is to prvent another Desolation. We will see how true that is when word of Talns arrival reaches him.

[marianmi]

Maybe that was true. But he failed.

So we actually have to wait and see what he does about the incoming desolation.

 

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the midnight essence vision was not actually taking place DURING a desolation. Maybe just before?

Maybe after?

 

So:

 

* before: should we expect now to get corrupted spren, midnight essence and god knows that else attacking the countryside?

* after: does that mean that pockes of enemy's forces remained after the desolation, and the KR spent their time until the day of recreance hunting them down?

 

And if Alethela was the "border" that the KR were guarding, and we've seen midnight essence in Natanatan, does that mean that the enemy comes from the east? So the Shattered Plains would be the most likely place for an attack now?

[hoser he/him]

Maybe that was true. But he failed.

So we actually have to wait and see what he does about the incoming desolation.

 

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the midnight essence vision was not actually taking place DURING a desolation. Maybe just before?

* before: should we expect now to get corrupted spren, midnight essence and god knows that else attacking the countryside?

And if Alethela was the "border" that the KR were guarding, and we've seen midnight essence in Natanatan, does that mean that the enemy comes from the east? So the Shattered Plains would be the most likely place for an attack now?

Presumably before (from Starfalls):

"Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong."

But we don't really know what comes after.  In any case, it is not immediately following.

 

There may not be a "border".  The attacks could conceivably appear anywhere and the Knights detect activity anywhere on the continent.  Hoid's story seemed to indicate a geographic origin, so it is hard to tell. 

[Ethrien he/him]

Lol.

 

Assassination is a criminal offence, no matter who gives the orders.

Yes but a criminal offense under which law? I doubt Roshar has an international treaties on war crimes or that most of the countries consider Kings as subjects of their own laws. If the King of Kharbranth doesn't consider it a crime to send an Assassin against his enemies then that assassination wasn't a crime anywhere he makes the law. Whether this immunity extends to the Assassin while he is outside Kharbranth's territory is another matter. Remember Darkness's strange focus on paperwork, it's important to him and he seems to need paperwork specific to the country his target is in.

 

There are so many questions that could be asked about Darkness's twisted sense of 'Justice'. Does he hold people to the law of the country they're currently in or all countries? When a King tries to pardon a person for crimes committed outside their territory does that stop Darkness? If it does, then does that protection end when the person leaves the King's territory? Does the person actually need to be guilty of the crime, or is it enough for them to be declared legally guilty based on false testimony? Who does he get to sign off on his paperwork, that they're willing to execute someone for theft? What if the local government has outlawed capital punishment, not likely on Roshar I know, but what if?

 

I'm not saying this is the reason for him avoiding Szeth, I'm actually very much in favor of it being because Szeth isn't Spren Bonded. I'm just pointing out difficulties Darkness may have with going after people tied to high government positions. His not just seeking any legal justification for the deaths, he is quite insistent on staying within the laws and rule of whichever land he is currently within.

Lift's Interlude -

 

“You have not done the proper paperwork in this kingdom ... ”

...

“Without the law, there is nothing. You will subject yourself to their rules, and accept the dictates of justice. It is all we have, the only sure thing in this world.”

Edited November 6, 2013 by Ethrien

[marianmi]

Yes but a criminal offense under which law? I doubt Roshar has an international treaties on war crimes or that most of the countries consider Kings as subjects of their own laws. 

 

Erm, international treaties? I am talking about the local law. I doubt you have a country where murder or assasination is not a criminal offence.  If you find a country where murder is not an offence, then everyone would kill eachother for nothing, and soon you have an empty country

If the azish people find Szeth, they will execute him for his (criminal) offence. He can tell them as much as he wants about he being not under their rule, about Mr. T or whatever... it does not matter If a foreigner comes to a country and commits an offence in that country, he is punished by that country's laws.

 

And, why "war" crimes? Szeth did no war crimes.

 

I really don't get your point.

 

 

Edit: there might be some countries where the king/prime/whatever is above the law. But Szeth is not one of those. "Killing in the name of" will not get him off the hook. Maybe if Mr. T did the killings himself, and he would be above the law, he would be scot-free. But Szeth?! No.

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Ethrien he/him]

Hmm your dead right, I think I started and finished that post in two different mind sets.

 

1. Darkness needs the crime to be unarguably a crime even with outside Royal opinion. i.e. If a King orders a soldier to go to another country and kill, it isn't a crime in the King's mind, it's an act of war. (which doesn't make it a war crime I'm not sure what I was thinking)

 

2. Darkness can only go off local laws, and can't use or be effected by other nations opinion on the crime or even true guilt. i.e. If I can get the paperwork filled, I can execute him here.

 

My overall jumbled point was supposed to be that we don't know much about how Darkness defines he's 'justice'. However then I found that section in the Lift interlude about, 'subject yourself to their rules' and wrote my ending without changing my beginning. I still stand by the point that any deaths ordered by a King are not crimes in the King's territory, assuming their above the law. Though that certainly wouldn't protect Szeth if he was caught in any one of the places he's committed a crime.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Ethrien

[Gloom he/him]

What we do know is that Darkness was present the night of Galivars assassination. We have reason to believe that Darkness was aware even before the assassination that Szeth was not a Surgebinder. We can feel relatively certain that should Darkness have sought a warrant to pursue Szeth, Elhokar would have given him every blessing to do so. It should also be considered a given that Jah Keved would also be more than happy to sign a warrant for Szeths head. So long as Darkness cornered Szeth in a territory that Szeth was wanted in and received the appropriate permissions he could legally hunt Szeth down.

 

Darkness isn't interested in Szeth because he isn't a Surgebinder. Darkness has known this for over five years.

[marianmi]

Given that Syl was getting the dumb when Kaladin was thinking of killing himself, and Kaladin's powers increased when behaving more like the ideals that attracted Syl, I think the Nahel bond is something that evolves based on continuous behaviour.

 

I think that the only way to sever the bond is to act in a way that is exactly the opposite of the ideals.

 

This leaves me to believe that either:

 

* the KR just dropped their shards, and did not actually sever their Nahel bonds

 

* the KR severed their bonds by doing something that is very much against their ideals... leading/protecting and dependable/resourceful for windrunners and stonewardens at the feverstone keep. This might be why these 2 orders dropped their shards - e.g. windrunners stopped leading (by leaving the battle) and stopped protecting -- by facilitating a massacre when the fighting over the shards broke. The other orders had to sever their bonds in a different way - e.g. taking instead of giving, destroying instead of building, killing instead of healing, etc... Maybe this is why there are so many things lost from the Radiants time.

Edited November 10, 2013 by marianmi

[Argent he/him]

I like that. It would also explain why the people of Roshar feel more betrayed than abandoned by the Radiants. Because they did betray them, sometimes quite violently. 

[Daishi5]

I think we know two of the oaths.  "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" and "I will remember those who have been forgotten."  So, one group could abandon the weak while another group might have run around destroying memorials and the like.  I wonder what the others might have done. 

[Meg]

Darkness isn't interested in Szeth because he isn't a Surgebinder. Darkness has known this for over five years.

 

This is new to me, where does this come from?

[marianmi]

In the Jasnah prologue, there is some guy that seems to talk like a Herald, and seems to look like Darkness. Talking with some other guy that seems to be a Herald too, that some bloke has their lord's (Jezrien's) own blade.