Lift and Allomancy

[Darkarma]

I had a rather interesting thought, given how Wyndle pretty much said investiture rather than stormlight when he told her told to surgebind. Now the question is, what if Lift consumed metals? We know Hemalurgy is universal, would this special brand of magic which Cultivation gave Lift be similar enough to Allomancy to produce the same properties when ingesting metal. It strikes me that instead of just burning 'food' lift may have the ability to convert ANYTHING into investiture of some form. The question is, only stormlight?

 

Lift could be Roshar's first Mistborn

Edited October 23, 2013 by Darkarma

[Argent]

I don't know... Her ability to metabolize nutrients into Stormlight seems very directly related to hunger. So it's not like she can put anything in her stomach and turn it into fuel for her Surgebinding. Plus, Investiture comes in different shapes and sizes, so to speak. Every Shard has a different flavor, and it's up to each individual's sDNA to determine which flavors can be utilized by that particular person.

[Darkarma]

I thought that too, but so far Nightwatcher/Cultivations boons/curses don't correspond with the various magic systems on Roshar that we know of and she seems to be able to rewrite a person's sDNA at will. Given that other magic systems can exist and can be brought along through worldhopping, I don't see why Cultivation can't make something like that happen.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Darkarma

[cem]

Can Cultivation even access Preservation's power? I mean I know they are all parts of Adonalsium in the end but Ruin couldn't touch Preservation's powers. So Intent seems to matter.

 

And you know how Sazed says everything in Scadrial is Preservation and Ruin? It stands to reason the same would be true of Honor and Cultivation in Roshar. So that food already is essentially Stormlight, Lift is converting it into... I don't know... its Spiritual components or something. It wouldn't make sense she'd be able to convert something of Roshar to Preservation's essence.

 

I have to say I very highly doubt your theory is correct. Even if it's possible by the rules Brandon created which I'm not sure it is, it doesn't make much sense to make Lift an Allomancer.

Edited October 23, 2013 by cem

[Darkarma]

Well I was thinking of it more as a side effect. What would happen if she ended up having to try and convert something not food into in stormlight.

 

I know its a far stretch but it does seem possible given how systems tend to adapt to already existing ones like lightweaving.

[Meg]

I think there's no such parallel to Allomancers/Mistborn and their metals. First, as Argent said, her sDNA isn't right and she lacks the innate Investiture from Preservation (and Ruin) that all Scadrians possess.

 

Then there's what Wyndle said about her using the excess and being left "underfed" and with "low body fat", what means that she needs to eat to recover "fat" to metabolize into Stormlight.

 

There might be kind of a similarity or connection, though. The metals on Scadrial are the focus people need to use to access the Three Metallic Arts. In the Ars Arcanum of AoL is written, that 

 

the metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

 

If there's a connection, then the body fat would the focus, the catalyst, to access the Investiture (Stormlight???). Other then ingested metals, that only run out, she seems to be in danger to use herself "up".

[Gloom]

Lift is sucked dry by the Amian wasp thing. She can't summon her Awesomeness at all. Then she eats a roll and it starts trickling back almost immediately. This happens slower than taking in Stormlight, but still far to quickly to be a result of digestion, let alone fat storage. I agree that it is likely that fat storage can be drawn upon, but she can apparently convert food directly into investiture as well. I'm not saying she would be able to convert metals, as she lacks the appropriate investiture to do so, but if she ate Hoids little bead, that might change. Lift is a thief, lets hope she steals Hoids bead, eats it and becomes an Allomancer

[Oudeis]

I'm not so sure we can dismiss the idea that Lyft can Allomance. I do think she'd need Scadrian metal, as I suspect that there is some innate quality of metal on Scadrial that makes it unique (i.e. a Mistborn on Roshar would need to bring Scadrian metal, he couldn't 'burn' Roshan iron). I admit I have no true evidence for this, it just seems to fit with the idea that a Shard Invests in the entire world, and that there is therefore something special about every pebble and breath of air on that world.

 

I finish, as I tend to, by saying; imagine how novel an emerald from Sel would be on Roshar. Marvel at the gem that refuses to Infuse!

[Shardlet]

I think it is very unlikely that Lift has any form of allomancy.  Nobody has brought up yet that Scadrial itself is an important part of the birth of allomancy.  The metallic arts are the result of the combination of the power and directives of Ruin and Preservation as well as Scadrial itself.  Since it is unlikely that Lift has even spent any time on Scadrial, it is very unlikely that she would have Scadrien investiture which would give her the potential for allomancy.  Even if Cultivation gave Lift an ability the was the sam or similar in the result of its use, the mechanism (i.e., burning metals) would be almost certainly different because of being on Roshar rather than Scadrial.

[Meg]

I'm not sure. At least Lift would have to ingest a piece of Lerasium, but where should she get it? And then the question whether Rosharan metals are "allomancy-able".  

[Gloom]

Interesting theory. If this is the case, that would make Allomancy virtually useless without metal from Scadrial, yet I have to wonder...

A planet is constantly being bombarded by debris from space. Would an Allomancer be capable of burning metal from a meteorite that impacted the surface of Scadrial? Would it only work after that meteorite was exposed to the mists? Would the people of Scadrial be able to bring metal mined in space back to Scadrial so it could be invested? If a Soulcaster Soulcasts a chunk of iron on Scadrial, would that iron ever be able to be burned? It's simpler to go with the idea that the investiture is in the person, and that the metal is just the trigger. If we go with this latter case, then the metal could theoretically be from anywhere and work anywhere.

[marianmi]

I don;t think there is anything special about the Scadrial metals.

Any metal, even from Roshar, would work.

We've seen, however, a spatial relationship - e.g. if you are further from Elantris, the Aons are not as powerful.

So I wonder if allomancy would work on another planet than Scadrial. After all, the metal is a key to access the spiritual power of Scadrial.

 

Maybe, if you somehow make a connection through Shadesmar....

[WeiryWriter]

I don;t think there is anything special about the Scadrial metals.

Any metal, even from Roshar, would work.

We've seen, however, a spatial relationship - e.g. if you are further from Elantris, the Aons are not as powerful.

So I wonder if allomancy would work on another planet than Scadrial. After all, the metal is a key to access the spiritual power of Scadrial.

 

Maybe, if you somehow make a connection through Shadesmar....

 

The metallic arts are among the most portable, they do not lose power the farther one is from Scadrial.  Also they do not "access the spiritual power of Scadrial" they use the power of Preservation/Ruin.  Sel's magic loses power because it is region-locked, the metallic arts are not.

 

I agree though, Scadrian metals are not required for the metallic arts.

[marianmi]

 they use the power of Preservation/Ruin

 

 

Is this Confirmed?

[WeiryWriter]

Is this Confirmed?

 

Here's a quote that kind of deals with this.  I'm sure there are more out there but that is how magic systems work (particularly end-positive ones), they are "fueled" by the shards.

[Shardlet]

Is this Confirmed?

 

Does it need to be?  All the magics use the powers of the Shards and by extension the power of creation.  The role the planet plays in the magics is that it affects how the invested power of a Shard is manifested.

[Argent]

The role the planet plays in the magics is that it affects how the invested power of a Shard is manifested.

 

Probably. It's possible that the Shards make a (sub)conscious decision about this. I would like it better if it was the planet's Cognitive or Spiritual aspect that determined this, but I wouldn't call it a fact.

[Shardlet]

Scadrial's cognitive and spritual aspects are both part of the planet and, combined with the Scadrial's physical aspect, make Scadrial what it is.  In the Cosmere, an entity (not necessarily sentient, by the way) is comprised of three parts. 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

Here's a quote that kind of deals with this.  I'm sure there are more out there but that is how magic systems work (particularly end-positive ones), they are "fueled" by the shards.

 

 

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy.

 

Allomancy does not use condensed "essence" of the shard's body -- except Vin does that with the mists. The mists are "super-fuel", but the "normal fuel" is not the shard.

When a person is burning metals they are not using Preservation's body as a fuel - they are tapping into the powers of creation.

 

Quotes from the link you gave me that show that they are not "fueled" by shards.

 

Shards provide a way to "get" to the fuel, which is unique to the planet, the planet's "spiritual power" like it's the Dor on Sel.

The same Dor is accessed through Dominion or Devotion, Elantrians don't use Devotion's power, they use the Dor. 

Thus, Shards mostly modify the sDNA of people to allow then access to the powers of creation.

 

It was my impression that the "powers of creation" that fuel the magic is bound to the planet they are on. 

 

 

 

 I would like it better if it was the planet's Cognitive or Spiritual aspect that determined this, but I wouldn't call it a fact.

 

That's how I understand it from the start. The planet is the one that determines this, although a Shard can subtly change it (like Szaed cannot get rid of allomancy and replace it with Awakening, but he can subtly change it - he did that, actually)

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom]

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them.

 

So we know that any magic system could be used on any planet...probably, if you know what you're doing.

[marianmi]

1. Dor is the power source on Sel.

2. You can access Dor through Devotion or Dominion, if you are Devoted (you get your sDNA modified in the Shaod) or if you Dominate (you get your sDNA modified through whatever they do in Dhakhor),

3. Probably, you cannot access Dor in Roshar (through "conventional" ways).

 

4. Roshar has it's own Dor, let's call it Storm.

5. You can access Storm though Honor, Cultivation, Odium, by having your sDNA altered by a bond with a spren that is attracted by your actions which correspond more or less to a shard's intent (let's assume for now it's the same for Odium, if you are a hateful guy then you get to bond an Odium spren).

6. Surgebinding uses stormlight, which is not the body of Honor/Cultivation/enter your shard here, but it's Storm. (Of course, stormlight might be gasous super-fuel and not "normal" fuel, i.e. is Honor's body... but it's very unlikely, because then only honorable surgebinders would have used stormlight when Tanavast was alive, which means that that surgebinder Nohadon mentioned destroyed lots of stuff was not using stormlight, which I find not probable. So let's go with stormlight = Storm)

7. Probably, you can't access Storm while on Sel (through "conventional" ways).

 

8. Hoid knows how to bypass the shards in getting access to the power. He would not need to go through the Shaod to access the Dor, or have a bounded spren to get access to the Storm. 

9. "they use the power of Preservation/Ruin" looks even more wrong now - did Hoid use the power of Honor when he did lightweaving on Roshar? Or of Odium? Or of some shard on another planet? I would think not.

 

10. Going back to 5: (let's assume for now it's the same for Odium, if you are a hateful guy then you get to bond an Odium spren) -- is Gaz now bounded to an Odiumspren? He kind of hated everyone.

 

 

CONCLUSION: allomancers don't use the power of preservation, preservation is not "fuelling" them, as in it's not the power they are using when doing magic. This is why you can use allomancy in a non-preservation way. Because the shard and it's intent is granting you access to power, not power.

 

EDIT: 1,2 is WoB, 3->10 are meant to be seen as (more or less logical) deductions in progressive order.

 

EDIT2: Is Hoid nothing more than a really smart & knowledgeable Forger? Stamping himself on each planet with the sDNA required to access magics?

Edited November 20, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom]

Cept how did Hoid get to Sel? He's from Yolen. How did he access the Dor on other planets, since this is actually one of the types of magic that Brandon says would be the most difficult to use because it's so localized. How is he still alive since forgery doesn't actually let you live longer than you would naturally? How does he travel through time?

 

Hoids got some neat tricks, and I don't think that he is dependent on the magic of one world.

 

As to the matter of Lightweaving, I believe this is a skill that Hoid learned on Yolen. Brandon has said that basically all illusion magic will work in a very similar fashion on any world, and since all Shards came from Yolen, it makes sense that any Shard that developed such a power would refer to it in familiar terms even if they aren't exactly the same.

[WeiryWriter]

@marianmi

 

1/2) You say these are WoB, if so I would very much like to see that. Brandon generally RAFO's questions pertaining to the exact nature of the Dor.  The prevailing belief, which I ascribe to, is that the Dor is not "accessed" through Devotion and Dominion, it is Devotion and Dominion. Chaos has an excellent "theory" about how this works here.

2a) Except those aren't the only way to access the Dor, that doesn't mention Forgery, Bloodsealing, or ChayShan.  Also, there is really only "one" magic system on Sel.

 

3) Naturally, Devotion and Dominion are not present on Roshar therefore Rosharan magic systems do not use them.

 

4) I really doubt it, Roshar doesn't have the problems that Sel does with uncontrolled Shardic energy so I don't think a Rosharan-Dor would develop.

 

5-7) I don't know how to respond to this.

 

8) Hoid is from Yolen and pre-dates the Shattering, he very likely has innate investiture from Adonalsium.  It has been theorized that this is what allows him to use such varied magic systems.  He might be able to do Fogery, but it is not an explanation for his abilities since Forgery-soulstamps lose power the farther they are from MaiPon.

 

9a) Hoid uses Yolish Lightweaving not Rosharan Lightweaving, so no he's not using the power of Honor/Cultivation/Odium.

9b) My use of "fueled" in my last post was a poor chose of wording, R&P do not "fuel" the metallic arts, (generally), they power them.  They can fuel them directly, as in the case of atium/the mists/Vin and Elend in the Battle of Hathsin, but those are special cases.  This talks a little about how the metallic arts are manifestations of the powers of R&P.

 

10) I would say no, voidbinding is probably gained in a different manner than surgebinding.

 

Conclusion) Yes, allomancers do use the power of Preservation, that is how it works.  The Power of Creation was Adonalsium, which is now the Shards

 

I'm going stop because I'm getting very frustrated with having to prove you wrong, and I'd rather not say anything that would get me in trouble.

Edited November 21, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[marianmi]

Let's agree to disagree.

 

We can both agree that the way the interactions between the 3 realms are different on each planet and they determine how the power of creation is manifested on that planet, can we?

 

About Hoid, I did not mean he was a Forger from Sel (obviously, he has been around for much longer), but that what he did was akin to Forgery - i.e. on a planet he would recognize how the 3 realms interact, and he would be able to change his sDNA. I do not think Hoid does magic with power from Adonalsium i.e. the only investiture from Adonalsium he has is what makes him "human", and is not granting him any extra "features". Also, I don't think Hoid does not age, I always thought he jumps in time. So he's like 40 years old, just that he spent an hour in some shady part of Shadesmar where time is different, so 1000 years have passed in "real life", or something like that. So he's just "ordinary" human, but his knowledge of the 3 realms allows him to world hop, access the power of creation, and go forward in time. Of course, he's adept at reading the signs of what's happening in all the worlds, that's why he can "jump out" on the right planet at the right time... 

 

EDIT: so would you say surgebinders use the power of Honor, Cultivation, both, Adonalsium? And voidbinders use the power of Odium?

Edited November 21, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardlet]

Hoid is much older than 40 as shown here. 

 

Q: How old is Hoid? How long did it take to become that old?

A: Ha. Let's just say that he's far older than a human should be able to get.

 

Also, everybody who does magic does so with the power of Adonalsium which is the power of creation which is the power that all the Shards hold.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Shardlet