Prime's deaths

[Argent he/him]

@FeatherWriter, I was going to remark on this. Referring to Taravangian as "Mr. T" has changed my entire worldview, I am now a new person. 

[marianmi]

Achievement unlocked!

Glad I have shaken your world

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Can we all unanimously agree that we will all call Taravangian Mr. T from now on?

[thek9 he/him]

Remember also that Shallan's father was potentially being set up by the Ghostbloods to become Highprince of Veden. This kind of suggests that Mr. T/The Ghostbloods may be trying to install leaders that support their cause across Roshar. Perhaps the assassinations are intended to open positions for their people, in addition to weakening nations that they intend to conquer or destroy.

[marianmi]

Good insight, thek9. I wonder if they work together or not (Mr T and the Ghostbloods).

[Gloom he/him]

It also makes it pretty obvious that Sadeas is working with them.

[bookspren]

Every time I see Taravangian referred to as Mr. T. I break out laughing. Please, everyone, keep it up.  

I think the Lift interlude takes place before Szeth is sent after Dalinar. I can't picture him leaving Dalinar alive, going back to Mr. T. and then going on more assasinations. I don't think his sense of honor would allow it. The Primes' deaths could be afterwards, but I think that would mean Dalinar is dead, which I do NOT want to accept.

[Ethrien he/him]

From Kaladin's new Steelhunt chapter:

The news was the buzz of the warcamps, ever since reports had started trickling in through spanreed. The emperor of Azir, dead. Jah Keved in turmoil. A half dozen other nations left without a ruler.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ethrien

[Gloom he/him]

Yes, that certainly appears to be confirmation that Szeth killed the Prime prior to receiving his new orders. I think we can put that controversy to rest now.

[hoser he/him]

Yes, that certainly appears to be confirmation that Szeth killed the Prime prior to receiving his new orders. I think we can put that controversy to rest now.

I consider it settled.  It's interesting in that the two Azish Primes were not mentioned in tWoK.  Brandon inserting the Azish primes assassination before the confrontation with Dalinar suggests to me that the confrontation  will be decisive in some way. 

[Riceloft he/him]

I wonder whether Taravangian is partnering with an unseen Herald, or maybe is being subtly manipulated by one.  (Nalan? Another?)

[Ethrien he/him]

Well if you think about it the majority of the assassinations weren't mentioned in tWoK. Around 24 names on the list and 6 countries left without leaders according to Kaladin. Of that we get three different countries and 9 confirmed targets in tWoK. The King of Jah Keved in Szeths interlude, the Emuli from Kaladin's Storm vision, and a Selay Gerontarch and 6 highprinces from Szeths summary of the list.

 

I'd suggest its placement could have more to do with the importance of Darkness to the second book. If Lift's interlude had come in it's chronological place in tWoK's then Darkness would have been revealed as a much bigger player way too early. Plus for those people with Alcatraz's least favorite habit, who've started reading from the second book, it serves as a nice re-enforcing of 'this assassin in white guy is deadly'.

[hoser he/him]

Well if you think about it the majority of the assassinations weren't mentioned in tWoK. Around 24 names on the list and 6 countries left without leaders according to Kaladin. Of that we get three different countries and 9 confirmed targets in tWoK. The King of Jah Keved in Szeths interlude, the Emuli from Kaladin's Storm vision, and a Selay Gerontarch and 6 highprinces from Szeths summary of the list.

 

I'd suggest its placement could have more to do with the importance of Darkness to the second book. If Lift's interlude had come in it's chronological place in tWoK's then Darkness would have been revealed as a much bigger player way too early. Plus for those people with Alcatraz's least favorite habit, who've started reading from the second book, it serves as a nice re-enforcing of 'this assassin in white guy is deadly'.

Good point!

 

Displacing the interlude in time was presumably done for a reason.  While it could have been that Szeth's assassination spree comes to an end (not that Szeth necessarily comes to an end), so the assassination would have to be placed earlier, there are many other possible explanations.  It could certainly be withholding information about Darkness, as you say.  It could also be sequencing for Lift, Darkness or the new Azish Prime. 

[bookspren]

I just read the new steelhunt chapter. I was right , Dalinar is still alive, for now.

 

@Riceloft, I also wondered if Mr. T was being controlled by Nalan, but there is not really any solid evidence. Another interesting theory that has been put forth is that Vedeledev is a nurse in the room where the terminally ill are being killed. I think this could be right since it would be a twisted version of her attributes: loving/healing. Like how Darkness/Nalan is legally murdering surgebinders.

 

Anyone agree that Darkness is going to be super important in the next books? I can totally picture him going after Kaladin.

[ADIMORTIS he/him]

The new steelhunt chapter has the mention of only one emperor of Azir listed as dead. So apparantly I have no idea about when was the second prime killed...

[Gloom he/him]

I believe the Lift interlude states that both Primes were killed within days of one another. I'm also not sure why some of you believe that the story wasn't moving chronologically. I think you really need to re-read the Lift interlude. The Prime was killed within the time frame that Szeth was on his killing spree. The Lift interlude occurs a couple of months after the death of the last Prime. If the Primes were some of the last assassinations Szeth committed, before traveling to Kharbranth to kill Taravangian, then it could easily fit within the chronology.

[hoser he/him]

 The Lift interlude occurs a couple of months after the death of the last Prime.

I did reread the Lift interlude and I still don't see where you get a couple of months.  I will paraphrase (since I don't want to quote) the passages I found:

 

the candidates were given one week to fill out the paperwork

 

two primes were murdered in the same week

 

there has been weeks of waiting

 

 

Given that they replaced the first within a week, I don't where they would mean months when they say weeks. 

 

What did I miss?

[Meg]

I believe the Lift interlude states that both Primes were killed within days of one another. I'm also not sure why some of you believe that the story wasn't moving chronologically. I think you really need to re-read the Lift interlude. The Prime was killed within the time frame that Szeth was on his killing spree. The Lift interlude occurs a couple of months after the death of the last Prime. If the Primes were some of the last assassinations Szeth committed, before traveling to Kharbranth to kill Taravangian, then it could easily fit within the chronology.

 

When I started writing this post I thought that Hoser is right and Gloom is wrong. But now I think, Gloom might be nearer to the timeline than Hoser thinks.

 

I think at least the first Prime was murdered prior to Szeth meeting Taravangian in TWoK Chapter 71. Because there was only one week between the murder of the first and the second Prime I could imagine that the second prime was murdered, too, before Szeth came to Kharbranth. Taravangian surely knows about the Azish rules and terms to find a new Prime. He could have ordered Szeth to stay that one week and assassinate the second Prime, having in mind that this would worry the Azir decision makers long enough to destabilize Azir.

 

Szeth had the order to kill "some two dozen" people. And we only know a few of them: The king of Jah Keved, Taravangian and Ashno of Sages*, the emperor of Azir.

 

* Lift-Interlude-spoiler

 

“Six different monarchs killed . . .” one of the voices said, a new one. “In a mere two months. Highprinces slaughtered throughout the east. Religious leaders.(1) And then, two Primes murdered in a matter of a single week."

 

from the Lift-Interlude

 

(1) I think the mentioned religious leader is Ashno of Sages:

 

“Ashno of Sages had a bad back. He was one of the greatest Emuli Primes.”

 

also from the Lift-Interlude; emphasizes mine

 

"He was ..." implies he's dead when Lift's Interlude happens. Baxil's Interlude in TWoK (I-7) implies that Ashno of Sages was still alive when Baxil's mistress was there.

 

Once again from Lift's Interlude:

 

“We have stalled too long as it is. These weeks of waiting with no Prime have been harmful to Azir. Let’s just pick the worst application. From this stack.”

 

"These weeks of waiting ..." happened obviously after the death of the second prime.

 

Gawx told Lift that:

 

With the Prime dead, the viziers, scribes, and arbiters were all given one week to fill out the proper paperwork to apply to take his place.

 

This seems to contradict the "weeks of waiting." There are two possibilities:

 

1. The one-week-application-deadline starts with the primes death.

2. The one-week-application-deadline starts at a point given by those who have to decide who will be the new prime. (This one seems not likely.)

 

I'm quite sure that the first possibility is the right one. The murder of the second prime within a week strongly suggests this.

But after the second prime was murdered, the decision makers where that worried that they put the decision off for as long as possible. And now they've reached the point when they see they could not wait any longer. 

 

 

Though I don't see that Lift's Interlude occurs "a couple of months" (Gloom) after the last Prime's death but surely weeks later and not only one week (Hoser).

 

As for I'm sure that in TWoK, and following in WoR, too, the chapters are chronologically this implies that the timeframe between TWoK Chapter 71 and WoR Interlude 9 is at least a few weeks.

[marianmi]

1) Prime is dead => there is a 1-week application process

2) After 1 week, the applications are gathered and then the viziers discuss who to choose. This can take any amount of time - 1 day or weeks.

 

Two Primes murdered in one week => somehow, the first time there was not a 1-week application process. Or there was one 1 week, then the Prime was selected immediately, then killed immediately.

 

I think there are 2 big possibilities:

 

1) Szeth was ordered to kill the Prime, then wait for re-election and kill the new Prime. He was in a hurry, having a big list and all, so he killed the new Prime immediately: 1 week passed, selection was instant, murder was done the same night. Szeth moves on.

 

2) A Prime has a government with a PM, when the prime dies the PM becomes the new Prime until election. So that "there is always a Prime". Szeth had both the Prime and the PM on his list, and killed them in a matter of days.

 

Nevertheless, I would say that Szeth spent 1 week or a little over 1 week there, before moving on. (With the distinct possibility that he killed the Prime, went on to the next target, and killed the new Prime on his way back. Mr. T is smart lidat.)

Edited November 10, 2013 by marianmi

[Meg]

PM = Private Message? lidat.? 

[Ethrien he/him]

I'm guessing 'PM = Prime Minister'

 

And I'm not sure about the "there is always a Prime" justification for a PM, I read it as the more mystical version i.e. The moment the Old Prime dies, the replacement is immediately chosen by Yaezir, it just takes some time for the humans to catch up. I'd definitely say your first possibility is the more likely, that there was an obvious replacement, an Arbiter who was already instrumental to the government.

 

The old prime dies, the week application period passes, the Arbiters spend a night reading all the last minute entries from "those fools in the gardens" as a formality, then hand it over to the man they all know deserves it. Szeth cuts his head off the next night, and two Primes have died within a week (give or take a day).

[marianmi]

PM = Private Message? lidat.? 

 

PM = like Prime Minister, just sounds weird with Prime in it

lidat = http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lidat

[bartbug he/him]

I doubt that Szeth was doing all of the killings, just because it would be a little risky for them(Mr T.) to send Szeth supermanning across a super continent.

It's a bird, it's a plane, no, it's a.... it's a Shin Surgebinder!

Someone would probably see that, and then there would be problems for Mr T. as the Heralds or Darkness figure it out. I think that Nalan would put Szeth's use of Surgebinding as 'evil'.

[Scott]

I doubt that Szeth was doing all of the killings, just because it would be a little risky for them(Mr T.) to send Szeth supermanning across a super continent.

It's a bird, it's a plane, no, it's a.... it's a Shin Surgebinder!

 

Why would it be risky?  Szeth was given a list of targets by an anonymous figure that held his Oathstone.  He went out and killed them all.  Only at the end of the list did he (and we) find out that Taravangian was behind it.  His orders were to commit the murders brutally, in public, and to continue wearing white.  The point clearly seems to be to make people connect these murders with the assassination of Gavilar.  If Szeth is captured, he can't give up any information he doesn't know.  He can only divulge the contents of the list.  

 

I think that Nalan ignored Szeth's surgebinding, and continues to ignore it, because it doesn't result for a bonded spren.  Nalan is only hunting surgebinders with a bond.  He was at the Alethi palace during Gavilar's assassination.  If he wanted to kill Szeth, he would have done so.

[dyring]

You know, Szeth wasent necciserily sent to kill two primes. He may well have been sent to kill the prime and a second high ranking functiononary. Just as he was sent to kill the king of Jah Keved and 6 highprinces. And its mentioned that Szeth likes to study his targets. A week seem resonable. People tend top exagerate. A week can become within a few days . Or it can even be an error to be caugh in last edit;/

 

The second high functionary just might have been elected prime after the first. Perhaps it was farily obvious who would be elected and Taravangian went by that. Or he was simply a unifying force. It seems to me King T wishes to do the same as.. well, Pedron Nial in tWoT. Remove all strong rulers, promote chaos, so he himself can move in in a misguided belief that only he can be trusted to rule.

Edited November 16, 2013 by dyring