What spren is Wyndle?

[Argent he/him]

"Cryptics" is capitalized because it's the first word of the sentence... This excerpt alone doesn't make us special.

[dionysus]

"Cryptics" is capitalized because it's the first word of the sentence... This excerpt alone doesn't make us special.

 

Facepalm. I am an idiot.

[Meg]

"Cryptics" is capitalized because it's the first word of the sentence... This excerpt alone doesn't make us special.

 

In this case, yes, but in a lot of posts etc. cryptics is capitalized, too, what I makes no sense to me (though I admit that I don't understand why kandra isn't capitalized but Inquisitors and Koloss are).

[Argent he/him]

I think the capitalization belongs to us, not Brandon. He hasn't written the word anywhere himself (except maybe an AMA, but I am too tired to search now), so it's kind of been up to us to decide whether to capitalize it or not (when transcribing interviews, for example).

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Hmm... I've always been inclined to capitalize it.

 

As for Brandon he has both not capitalized it, as he did when he first mentioned the name.  And capitalized it, as he did when he confirmed the name's canonicity.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Regardless of the capitalization, I think it is clear from Wyndle's quote that cryptics are distinct from honorspren. Just how distinct is up for debate, but it seems clear that cryptics are not a subset of honorspren. My guess is honorspren are all from Honor, Wyndle is a cultivationspren (all from Cultivation), and cryptics (maybe among other bonding spren) are a mix of the two. I say Wyndle is a cultivation spren because it appears he is pointing out the "others" who came to see his work; it wouldn't be very impressive if only other cultivation spren were interested.

My guess is that the top three orders get honor spren, the bottom three get cultivation, and the middle four get blends/cryptics.

This also could work with Brandon previously calling cryptics truthspren. The ones we saw were sort of truth spren, much like syl is sort of a wind spren. We originally called them both by their basic form because we didn't yet know the name of their higher type. It is likely that Wyndle also has a base type, in addition to being a cultivation spren.

Reading back over this, I am pretty convinced that cryptics is the third and final (mixed) super category. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that he would call out a larger group and one smaller specific group. Why cryptics specifically, you know? From the structure of his boast, it sounds like he is trying to say "everyone".

Also FWIW, I could totally see a type of discrimination/racism between the spren, maybe looking down upon the "mongrel" mixed spren.

Edited October 30, 2013 by askthepaperclip

[WeiryWriter he/him]

My guess is that the top three orders get honor spren, the bottom three get cultivation, and the middle four get blends/cryptics.

 

Are you going by the chart?  If so there's a problem Shallan has a Cryptic and is one of the "bottom three."

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Ah crap you are right...I was thinking she and jasnah were the left middle two. Hmm... well I still like the rest of what I said! :-D

[hoser he/him]

I am not inclined to think that the mundane spren are the Ado-spren because there are just so many of them (an apparently huge portion of the apparent spren population).   So many mundane spren being sourced from Adonalsium suggests that it left a pretty big chunk of power on Roshar.  I am more inclined to think that the mundane spren (or at least the vast majority of them) were the/a result of the splintering of Honor.

 

I don't think that this provides a contradiction to anything Brandon has previously said.

I basically agree with this and offer a quote in support:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

 

Smarter people than I observed that there are not all the random spren in Dalinar's visions.  That would make sense if they are the result of Honor splintering, since he hadn't been splintered yet. 

 

I think if Odium started collecting bits of Honor, once amalgamated, the intent would reassert itself.  So I doubt that Odium would risk the resulting pollution. 

[Alterodent he/him]

Ooh! What if there are so many spren around because no one is surgebinding? Spren are providing a release that the KR previously did. 

[hoser he/him]

Regardless of the capitalization, I think it is clear from Wyndle's quote that cryptics are distinct from honorspren. Just how distinct is up for debate, but it seems clear that cryptics are not a subset of honorspren. My guess is honorspren are all from Honor, Wyndle is a cultivationspren (all from Cultivation), and cryptics (maybe among other bonding spren) are a mix of the two. I say Wyndle is a cultivation spren because it appears he is pointing out the "others" who came to see his work; it wouldn't be very impressive if only other cultivation spren were interested.

My guess is that the top three orders get honor spren, the bottom three get cultivation, and the middle four get blends/cryptics.

This also could work with Brandon previously calling cryptics truthspren. The ones we saw were sort of truth spren, much like syl is sort of a wind spren. We originally called them both by their basic form because we didn't yet know the name of their higher type. It is likely that Wyndle also has a base type, in addition to being a cultivation spren.

Reading back over this, I am pretty convinced that cryptics is the third and final (mixed) super category. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that he would call out a larger group and one smaller specific group. Why cryptics specifically, you know? From the structure of his boast, it sounds like he is trying to say "everyone".

Also FWIW, I could totally see a type of discrimination/racism between the spren, maybe looking down upon the "mongrel" mixed spren.

There is another way to look at Wyndle's quote. It only mentions cryptics and honorspren.  The possibility that jumps out at me is that all bonding spren fit into these two super-types (is that even a word for non-programmers? Maybe I can hyphenate it.).  Since I believe that the bonding spren are of honor, cultivation or a mixture and honorspren are likely more of honor, I theorize that Wyndle is a kind of cryptic. If all the Wyndle-type spren are cryptics, then they could come and admire his/sculptures too.  Maybe all spren related more to cultivation are known generically as cryptics. 

 

Digression: Making sculptures out of people's thoughts.  Creepy! What effect would that have on the people whose thoughts are being sculpted? Yikes!

Edited October 31, 2013 by hoser

[Argent he/him]

I proposed a similar thing a while back, but I no longer think it could work. Nohadon, during one of Dalinar's vision, shares his regret that "not all spren as discerning as honorspren," in reference to Alakavish (who, as I understand it, was a Surgebinder - bound a spren other than an honorspren - who started a war against Nohadon shortly before a Desolation). This suggests that honorspren are either the only, or one of the few, spren concerned with some form of morality in their Surgebinders. If half of the spren were of the honorspren supertype, I doubt Nohadon would've been said what he said. 

 

I've since decided that Wyndle mentions honorspren and cryptics specifically because they are special in some way. Maybe they are the only spren whose Investiture comes entirely from a single Shard. Maybe the two are so different, Wyndle mentions them as a way of saying "look at how diverse of an audience my sculptures attracted." Or something else entirely.

[aheerema he/him]

There is another way to look at Wyndle's quote. It only mentions cryptics and honorspren.  The possibility that jumps out at me is that all bonding spren fit into these two super-types (is that even a word for non-programmers? Maybe I can hyphenate it.).  Since I believe that the bonding spren are of honor, cultivation or a mixture and honorspren are likely more of honor, I theorize that Wyndle is a kind of cryptic. If all the Wyndle-type spren are cryptics, then they could come and admire his/sculptures too.  Maybe all spren related more to cultivation are known generically as cryptics. 

 

Digression: Making sculptures out of people's thoughts.  Creepy! What effect would that have on the people whose thoughts are being sculpted? Yikes!

 

“What has become of me?” Wyndle asked. “Thieving in the night, chased by abominations. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honorspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?”

 

I agree with Hoser. This quote was the biggest theory nugget [edit: for me] of the whole interlude, and it kept running through my head after reading it. I think the nature of Wyndle's comment suggests that cryptics and honourspren form the two... orders? of spren. Windspren, gardenspren, lightspren, etc. then fit within honourspren or cryptics... at least in the language/terminology and awareness of the spren themselves.

 

(Aside: His comment also suggests culture, and other parts of the interlude suggest governance and leadership... which suddenly explodes the possibilities of what spren are exactly.)

 

(Aside: Cryptics as a general classification seem to fit an association with the Night Mother...)

 

Because these divisions or orders are given to us from a spren's experience, and because WoB has stated there is some division regarding the classification of honour spren among themselves, it would also make sense that Nohadon's comment regarding discerning honourspren could also be... flexible? Why would Nohadon know any better than the spren themselves which spren is an honourspren?

 

Regarding the Inevitable Counterpoint that *Perhaps honourspren and cryptics are just the most visible/reputable/admired orders of spren which is why Wyndle references them.*: This is possible. I could be persuaded. But at this point I don't think its right.

 

edit: Oh, and on topic... I think Wyndle is a gardenspren or vinespren...

Edited December 12, 2013 by aheerema

[Aether he/him]

I also find it curious that Wyndle uses the term "Cryptics" at all. Wasn't that a term that originated within the fandom, as a place-holder name for Shallan's unknown type of Spren? 

[Shardbearer he/him]

No, the fandom called them truthspren until Brandon told us they were Cryptics.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Is it possible that cryptics are not spren at all? Brandon did respond to "can Rock see cryptics?" with "good question, rafo" which probably means either Rock can only see certain types of spren, or cryptics are not, in fact, spren. This is also supported by the fact that every other type of spren we have seen has been called ___spren, but the canonical name "cryptics" breaks this pattern. Given Brandon's style, anything that doesn't fit a pattern deserves a closer look.

I feel like a broken record for continuing to bring this up, but I cannot shake the feeling that Shallan, cryptics, and soulcasting (at least in certain forms) do not fit into the pat little surge table we think we have figured out so well, at least in the way we expect. ;-)

There are just too many loose ends (wyndle calling out cryptics, nohadon calling out soulcasters, jasnah being surprised/confused by shallan's abilities, Brandon's early descriptions of the series), and I will eat my hat if we don't find out that soulcasting is somehow special/distinct from the other abilities we have seen. I don't remember if it is kurkistan or argent that keeps a list of such declarations, but you can add that one to it!

[FeatherWriter she/her]

It's Kurk, and he'll hold you to that one. 

 

I think it is safe to say that Shallan is a Radiant though, because if I'm remembering correctly, Brandon has talked about her order, hasn't he? As opposed to someone like Szeth who isn't a Radiant but somehow has surgebinding abilities.

 

There is something up with cryptics though. I'll give you that one.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Cryptics are spren.  It is also important to realize that "Cryptics" is what they call themselves, so it makes sense that it wouldn't necessarily match the naming convention of other kinds of spren.

Edited December 12, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Shardlet he/him]

Since Weiry's link is to a series of questions, I thought might extract the pertinent one for y'all:

 

Zas: There is a debate on what to call Shallan’s Symbols, so we don’t have such an ambiguous term for it .

Brandon: The Symbolhead?

Zas: Yeah, the Symbolhead, Shallanspren, 

Brandon: (laughter)

Zas: We don’t really know what to call them.

Brandon: Do I want to canonize this yet? 

Zas: You don’t have to canonize it yet.

Brandon: I don’t know if I want to canonize it yet. But I willsay this. They are spren, that should be pretty obvious. They are the spren connected to what Shallan is capable of doing. But I don’t know if I want to canonize it yet. Truthspren is as good a name as any, and I would suggest you use that until further notice.

 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Aaarrgghhh Curse you and your "facts" and "sources"! Lol

I still say something is amiss...