Szeth/Shin Conspiracy Theory

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

After reading the prelude again, I noticed we were given references to rocks and things coming from rocks and formations of rocks quite a bit. Thinking on this for a quick 20 seconds provided me with this theory that, right now, is still in rambling, bullet-point format:

• The Heralds left their Honorblades in the stone on the battlefield.
• Some Shin (or the people that would become the Shin) discovered the blades, and a select few set to keeping them a secret.
• The method for doing this was simply to tell the people around them that stone was sacred, and not to be walked upon. Maybe this rule turns into legend, myth, religion, whatever.
• Szeth is "Truthless" because he violated this law, walked on the stone, and took one of the Honorblades. That, or he is Truthless for some other reason, and thus considered hopeless enough to go take an Honorblade.
• Maybe the Honorblades cannot be bound to a person other than a Herald, or there is some other stipulation, and the means by which they are recovered is that they poof back over to that stone when the person dies.

 

These ideas may be basic points of a complex system I can't guess, but the point was to find a relationship between rocks, the Shin, Truthless, and the Honorblades.

Thoughts?

Edited October 22, 2013 by bloodfalcon2

[Argent he/him]

Well, regarding your last point - we know that Honorblades can be taken by other people.

 

On the rest... there is certain elegance I see in this theory. Mundane actions and words turning into legends is something Brandon likes to toy with. The thing is, for this to work, Shinnovar would've had to literally grow around those Blades in the millenia after the last Desolation. 

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Taken by other people, yes, but it could be like a bandage bond. Like the Heralds discarded the blades made specifically for them at that place, and you can take it, but when you die, it is going to go back to where it was put. It is only mentioned that others can "use" an Honorblade. I can use the Waverunner I rent at the lake, but I have to take it back when I'm done.

[Argent he/him]

I don't see why Honorblades would have two levels of bonding. Szeth Whoever findss themselves in possession of one of the Honorblades will almost certainly be able to summon, control, and send the Blade away. For all intents and purposes, the Blade will be bound to them. There is no reason to believe that an even deeper bond exists - other than to fit your theory, of course

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I don't see why Honorblades would have two levels of bonding. Szeth Whoever findss themselves in possession of one of the Honorblades will almost certainly be able to summon, control, and send the Blade away. For all intents and purposes, the Blade will be bound to them. There is no reason to believe that an even deeper bond exists - other than to fit your theory, of course

Hahaha, as is the case with any theorizing. It is an unproven explanation that exists to connect or rationalize other pieces of information.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Also. I was under the assumption that the blades were left in the Shattered Plains.

I always imagined the Heralds standing on the "Tower" plateau and leaving the blades there when walking away. With all the descriptions of the rocky pillars, and the chasmfiends. But I could be totally wrong.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Also. I was under the assumption that the blades were left in the Shattered Plains.

I always imagined the Heralds standing on the "Tower" plateau and leaving the blades there when walking away. With all the descriptions of the rocky pillars, and the chasmfiends. But I could be totally wrong.

The prelude doesn't describe chasmfiends, it describes Thunderclasts, but I always mentally lumped them in there as well. Some of the description really does sound like the Shattered Plains, but at the same time, it describes natural stone pillars, which I don't recall being part of the Shattered Plains. It came across differently when I visualized it after considering it might not be the Shattered Plains.

[Argent he/him]

@bloodfalcon2, another unwritten rule of theorycrafting, however, is Occam's Razor. Anyone can come up with a convoluted theory about how any two events, actions, or people from the book are related. That's easy. The hallmark of a good theory is the ability to show the relationship between your subjects in a very simple, yet strikingly truthful (or at least plausible) way. Which is why I was excited about the part of your theory that explained how the Shin (or their ancestors) could've found the sacred Blades in the stone, and that gave birth to the whole concept of the sacredness of stone. It's simple, it's elegant, it's very possible, but most importantly - it is rooted in what we know about the Blades (unique, beautiful, sacred, set in stone), the Shin (consider stone holy and walking on it - bad mojo), and how the passage of time warps  history. "Honorblades have two levels of bonding" is nothing like that

 

@Gamma Fiend, it's possible that the last battle from the last Desolation took place in the Shattered Plains. The only things we know are "the plain was a place of misshapen rock and stone, natural pillars rising around him." The irregularities of the plain are attributed to the Thunderclasts - which may or may not be chasmfiends. Moreover, I seem to recall that either Dalinar or Kaladin described the Plains as "unnatural." Kaladin, during his night out in the highstorm, thinks that "they looked as if something very large had hit them at the center, sending rippling breaks outward." Furthermore, Eshonai's interlude (I think?) suggests that there once was a civilization underneath the Plains, with the Tower plateau itself possibly being an actual tower covered in crem (and other things); the prelude doesn't mention civilization or structures - just corpses, people, and rock. Corpses and people are obviously irrelevant for determining location (unless we find a chunk of stone that looks like a Thunderclast), and rock covers all of Roshar (except for Shinnovar and some coastal regions). So, in the end, I'll vote against the Shattered Plains being the site of the last Desolation

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

^True that. I will note though, that my convoluted theory was an extension/patch that was meant to reinforce the base theory by showing possible (if unfounded) solutions to certain gaps before they needed to be pointed at. 

The Thunderclast/Chasmfiend theory doesn't seem to fit at all though. The descriptions are not even similar. One has glowing red eyes, and a protruding stone ribcage. The other is described more as a giant, hungry lobster. 

[Meg]

After reading the prelude again, I noticed we were given references to rocks and things coming from rocks and formations of rocks quite a bit. Thinking on this for a quick 20 seconds provided me with this theory that, right now, is still in rambling, bullet-point format:

• The Heralds left their Honorblades in the stone on the battlefield.
• Some Shin (or the people that would become the Shin) discovered the blades, and a select few set to keeping them a secret.
• The method for doing this was simply to tell the people around them that stone was sacred, and not to be walked upon. Maybe this rule turns into legend, myth, religion, whatever.
• Szeth is "Truthless" because he violated this law, walked on the stone, and took one of the Honorblades. That, or he is Truthless for some other reason, and thus considered hopeless enough to go take an Honorblade.
• Maybe the Honorblades cannot be bound to a person other than a Herald, or there is some other stipulation, and the means by which they are recovered is that they poof back over to that stone when the person dies.

 

These ideas may be basic points of a complex system I can't guess, but the point was to find a relationship between rocks, the Shin, Truthless, and the Honorblades.

Thoughts?

 

 

I like your first three points, which make my brain work and speculate further (better not to write this down now ).

 

Well, regarding your last point - we know that Honorblades can be taken by other people.

 

On the rest... there is certain elegance I see in this theory. Mundane actions and words turning into legends is something Brandon likes to toy with. The thing is, for this to work, Shinnovar would've had to literally grow around those Blades in the millenia after the last Desolation. 

 

BS said:

 

Dustin

Can a Herald's blade/equipment be um....adopted? I only ask because Dalinar seems to be lacking one and that Herald at the end did kick the bucket in his capital and he's gonna need more than armor when Szeth shows up.

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Someone who is not himself or herself a Herald can indeed use one of the Honorblades.

source

 

 

I'm not sure if Honorblades act like Shardblades when taken up. I'd think they stay in their physical shape when taken by someone who is not himself or herself a Herald. "Use" doesn't necessarily imply that one can do more (thus summoning or releasing it) than bear or fight with it. And given that the Honorblades are not rusted away because of them being something very special, they would be similar deadly weapons like Shardblades.

 

And there is a fundamental difference between Shardblades and Honorblades (at least in the days of TWoK): When a Shardbearer dies the Blade materializes, when a Herald dies, the Blade vanishes.

 

Where I want to go: I see no evidence -- neither negating nor confirming -- regarding the question whether Honorblades and Heralds have another kind of bond than (modern) Shardbearers and their Shardblades, same for the question if someone "using" an Honorblade is granted the possibility to summon and release it.

 

If I missed something about this questions I'd appreciate to get those information.

 

 

Eshonai's interlude (I think?) suggests that there once was a civilization underneath the Plains, with the Tower plateau itself possibly being an actual tower covered in crem (and other things);

 

 

I'm quite sure the Shattered Plains could be described as unnatural.

 

What do you mean with "underneath"? That those people lived in the underground? If so, I don't see this, sorry.

 

Eshonai passed lumps and mounds, remnants of fallen buildings that had slowly been consumed by the Shattered Plains.

 

(from the Eshonai reading)

 

Eshonai there describes the plateau where the Parshendi are living during this war. Though the Tower Plateau might have been part of this ancient city, it's some plateaus away from the Parshendi's camp.

If this place hadn't been Urithiru (yes, I know, Jasnah said ... -- but I'd love this place to be Urithiru) I think it might have been the capital of Natanatan.

 

edit: added spoiler tag, thanks for the reminder, Shardlet

Edited October 22, 2013 by Meg

[makromag he/him]

Something else this whole thing fits in is the process of becoming a soldier in Shinovar: Men who pick up a weapon are given oathstones and traded between shin much like slaves. I always assumed Szeth was truthless because he picked up his shardblade (whether or not it is an honorblade is fairly irrelevant to my point, though it would contribute to it), making him even worse / lower than a regular soldier.

Like if taking a gun was a sin and he just up and took a hydrogen-bomb.

Oh and I can't remember in which part of the book that was mentioned, though I believe it was in an interlude or another. Sorry.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I'm not sure it's even close to where I expected to go with this topic, but if the Heralds did have a bond with their Honorblades, it would explain a few things. For one, them slamming the coolest blades ever into the ground and walking away would be an actual action that severs them from their power/responsibility, where the lack of a bond turns this action into... I don't know.... wastefulness? In addition, Kaladin gets his powers from an HONORspren. If the Heralds got theirs from HONORblades, each being a manifestation of their connection/bond to Honor, then both Szeth's powers and their leaving them suddenly make sense. Maybe the blades are a physical connection and the spren are a spiritual connection. 

I guess this topic connects by saying: I think there could very well be a lot more to them leaving the blades than we think about.

[Shardlet he/him]

Furthermore, Eshonai's interlude (I think?) suggests that there once was a civilization underneath the Plains, with the Tower plateau itself possibly being an actual tower covered in crem (and other things); the prelude doesn't mention civilization or structures -

 

What do you mean with "underneath"? That those people lived in the underground? If so, I don't see this, sorry.

 

(from the Eshonai reading)

 

Eshonai there describes the plateau where the Parshendi are living during this war. Though the Tower Plateau might have been part of this ancient city, it's some plateaus away from the Parshendi's camp.

 

Careful with the WoR spoilers folks.  In the Stormlight forum, statements like these should be in tags.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm not sure it's even close to where I expected to go with this topic, but if the Heralds did have a bond with their Honorblades, it would explain a few things. For one, them slamming the coolest blades ever into the ground and walking away would be an actual action that severs them from their power/responsibility, where the lack of a bond turns this action into... I don't know.... wastefulness? In addition, Kaladin gets his powers from an HONORspren. If the Heralds got theirs from HONORblades, each being a manifestation of their connection/bond to Honor, then both Szeth's powers and their leaving them suddenly make sense. Maybe the blades are a physical connection and the spren are a spiritual connection. 

I guess this topic connects by saying: I think there could very well be a lot more to them leaving the blades than we think about.

 

I believe that Heralds have additional investiture outside of their Honorblades. They are extremely long lived if not immortal. They are almost certain to be knowledgeable in fabrial science as well.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I believe that Heralds have additional investiture outside of their Honorblades. They are extremely long lived if not immortal. They are almost certain to be knowledgeable in fabrial science as well.

Maybe one piece Honor via Honorblade and one piece Cultivation via [?]. Or is this out of the realm of possibility?

There is a certain line in the Jasnah reading from WoR that might suggest that the disconnect between Herald and Honorblade is having adverse affects on the Heralds...... I don't know how to use spoiler tags.

[Guest Alaxel]

I also do not know how to use spoiler tags.

A short period of instruction would be appreciated.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Your gentlemanly picture combined with that gentlemanly comment really impressed me

[Argent he/him]

I also do not know how to use spoiler tags.

A short period of instruction would be appreciated.

 

You enclose the text you would like to hide with spoiler tags, like so:

 

This text will be replaced by the "Spoiler (Show)" button.

On the note of the Heralds knowing fabrial science - I am not convinced. Fabrial science is a very... human invention. Depending on how the Heralds came to be Heralds, I find it very possible that Surgebinding came so naturally to them, they didn't have to bother learning the laws behind it. They wouldn't need to practice, or learn, or even think about it. It would be like taking a dolphin and trying to explain swimming to it. Swimming - the techniques, the styles, the movements - all of this is our human way of conquering what the dolphins already do naturally. So maybe the Heralds can do everything and anything a fabrial can - only it comes naturally to them.

[hoser he/him]

I imagine Argent's solution is excellent and there is an alternate. 

I also do not know how to use spoiler tags.

A short period of instruction would be appreciated.

If you use the site to post, there is a weird icon in the formatting.  For me, it is top row, third from left, just to the left of the font selector and above the underline toggle that, when moused over says "Special BBCode".  Hitting the icon provides a selector that includes "spoiler" as an option.

[DocHoliday he/him]

did my tag work?

 Hell ya it did

Edited October 25, 2013 by DocHoliday

[Gloom he/him]

On the note of the Heralds knowing fabrial science - I am not convinced. Fabrial science is a very... human invention. Depending on how the Heralds came to be Heralds, I find it very possible that Surgebinding came so naturally to them, they didn't have to bother learning the laws behind it. They wouldn't need to practice, or learn, or even think about it. It would be like taking a dolphin and trying to explain swimming to it. Swimming - the techniques, the styles, the movements - all of this is our human way of conquering what the dolphins already do naturally. So maybe the Heralds can do everything and anything a fabrial can - only it comes naturally to them.

 

Eh? I would think that such a science would appeal to Palah (learned/giving). A fabrial was used by the Stoneward in Skyfall, so at the least, KR found the art useful.

[Argent he/him]

The Radiants are still Surgebinders though. Still, we don't know enough to make even a semi-educated guess. What if the Heralds had access to all surges? It's not a far-fetched assumption, considering that anything less would make them Radiants on steroids at best. In this case fabrials would be completely useless to them, and they probably wouldn't even consider them. Would you consider developing a technology that allows you to, for example, smell things? Or one that allows you to walk? Assuming no deficiencies in those things (e.g. people's sense of smell just doesn't go away ever), you take those things for natural and don't consider them viable research subjects. Of course, all of this is based on a single assumption - but it serves to show how little we know about what the Heralds knew and were capable of.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

The Radiants are still Surgebinders though. Still, we don't know enough to make even a semi-educated guess. What if the Heralds had access to all surges? It's not a far-fetched assumption, considering that anything less would make them Radiants on steroids at best. In this case fabrials would be completely useless to them, and they probably wouldn't even consider them. Would you consider developing a technology that allows you to, for example, smell things? Or one that allows you to walk? Assuming no deficiencies in those things (e.g. people's sense of smell just doesn't go away ever), you take those things for natural and don't consider them viable research subjects. Of course, all of this is based on a single assumption - but it serves to show how little we know about what the Heralds knew and were capable of.

Haha, I see the point you are trying to make, and I understand it, but we DO have fabrials for walking. And they were made by people who can walk (I assume) for people who cannot walk. If you commanded a group of troops now and they all had no legs, you might begin studying your own legs to build them for others. Hahaha, I know it is kind of silly, but the point is that you are right in that nobody would be building them for themselves, but it is natural for people to work on things of that nature for others, especially those under them.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Eh? I would think that such a science would appeal to Palah (learned/giving). A fabrial was used by the Stoneward in Skyfall, so at the least, KR found the art useful.

That is assuming that thing was fabrial - something I am sill not convinced it was. The fabrial science is relatively new -at least for the fabrials as we know them, and Radiants were around when they still didn't have steel swords. Originally, I thought that Stonewards were using Growth with gems being Stormlight source. Now I am not sure, but what if it was a storage device? Charged by Edgedancers with Regrowth, and carried into battle as a health pack? After all, normal fabrials can be recharged by anyone (presumably), so she wouldn't have to conserve Regrowth, but stormlight... A prototype, if you will - a gem construct, but without a captured spren yet.

 

To the topic at hand - I doubt it. Taravangian said  "given this monster of a shardblade by your people" - so I doubt Szeth took it. And I am not sure they left the blades anywhere near Shinovar.

[Gloom he/him]

Fabrial science isn't a new art, it's a lost art being rediscovered. A Soulcaster fabrial is not a new invention, it's an old one.

 

That is assuming that thing was fabrial - something I am sill not convinced it was. The fabrial science is relatively new -at least for the fabrials as we know them, and Radiants were around when they still didn't have steel swords. Originally, I thought that Stonewards were using Growth with gems being Stormlight source. Now I am not sure, but what if it was a storage device? Charged by Edgedancers with Regrowth, and carried into battle as a health pack? After all, normal fabrials can be recharged by anyone (presumably), so she wouldn't have to conserve Regrowth, but stormlight... A prototype, if you will - a gem construct, but without a captured spren yet.

 

What you just described, is a fabrial. It may work on slightly different principles than what they are currently using, but it would still be a fabrial. I don't think the KR had any great awe of ordinary spren. I doubt it is all that hard to make a distinction between bonding spren and wild spren. I don't see why they would have a problem using captured spren in fabrials.