Mystery of Truthwatchers

[Herald]

1. How are Truthwatchers able to see the future, if their surges are Progression (The Surge of Growth and Healing) and Illumination (The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms)? Is it related to their spren or ideals or something else entirely (Cultivation influence maybe)?

 

2. It seems that Truthwatchers can predict future just based on present circumstances without considering the drastic changes that may immediately happen. Renarin Kholin predicted that everyone would die due to the clash of Everstorm and Highstorm, but Shallan is able to use the portal at the end and prevented this from happening. This might be the reason for them to be silent and secretive since being vocal about their prediction could bring about some changes which may cause the prediction to fail. Are there any holes/faults in this theory?

 

I'm new to 17th shard, so if there has already been a discussion on these topics, please post that thread. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Jezerezeh

[Yata]

It's possible to be something like a great Analytic ability (like the Mr.T's Diagram).

[natc]

Well, how does Shallan perfectly memorize images just by blinking with only illumination and transformation? The epigraphs imply that it is a Lightweaver thing in general, not a unique case.

Surges are evidently not the only thing nahel bonds grant.

Edited September 16, 2015 by natc

[Herald]

Well, how does Shallan perfectly memorize images just by blinking with only illumination and transformation? The epigraphs imply that it is a Lightweaver thing in general, not a unique case.

Surges are evidently not the only thing nahel bonds grant.

 

But Shallan has that ability much before she has actually bonded, right? In Lightweavers case I think the members already have an artistic talent which helped them to be recruited into that order.

 

Quote from WoR regarding this:

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursude the arts; namly: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order's general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.

 

But if nahel bonds grants some extra abilities, do you think it depends on the type of spren? I didn't find any extra abilities that Kaladin acquired due to his bonding with Syl other than his surgebinding abilities.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Jezerezeh

[Yata]

 

But Shallan has that ability much before she has actually bonded, right? In Lightweavers case I think the members already have an artistic talent which helped them to be recruited into that order.

 

Quote from WoR regarding this:

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursude the arts; namly: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order's general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.

 

But if nahel bonds grants some extra abilities, do you think it depends on the type of spren? I didn't find any extra abilities that Kaladin acquired due to his bonding with Syl other than his surgebinding abilities.

 

The Nahel bond grants ability linked to the Order. We have some examples:

Skybreaker: The ability to know if a man is guilty or not.

Lightweaver: Memory

Windrunner: (probably) The atmosphere's sensibility. With Kal uses to anticipate the Highstorm and Use the Gravitation Surge better than Szeth with less training.

Bondsmith: I don't know what is their power but in a Epitapht is stated that "Use the unique Bondsmith's power to put end at the Voidbringer" (This are not the original words).

[Herald]

The Nahel bond grants ability linked to the Order. We have some examples:

Skybreaker: The ability to know if a man is guilty or not.

Lightweaver: Memory

Windrunner: (probably) The atmosphere's sensibility. With Kal uses to anticipate the Highstorm and Use the Gravitation Surge better than Szeth with less training.

Bondsmith: I don't know what is their power but in a Epitapht is stated that "Use the unique Bondsmith's power to put end at the Voidbringer" (This are not the original words).

 

 

Oh, now I get it.

This is the quote regarding Bondsmith

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address

 

So this means that Shallan is bonded with Pattern before (or at the time?) she killed her mother using the shardblade. But shouldn't the bonding with a spren be done consciously? I mean she must be so young at that time. I thought that Shallan bonded when she confronts Jasnah and confesses that she killed her father.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Jezerezeh

[Jondesu]

 

But if nahel bonds grants some extra abilities, do you think it depends on the type of spren? I didn't find any extra abilities that Kaladin acquired due to his bonding with Syl other than his surgebinding abilities.

 

It's implied, though possibly misleading, that his bond with Syl has some connection to his fighting ability.  It's possible it's just improved reflexes, speed, and strength that every Radiant would get, but it could easily be a specific benefit of the bond with an Honorspren like Syl instead of a Cryptic like Pattern.  There's some significant debate over what the quote I'm thinking of actually means, but it's at least undeniable that he's better at fighting because of the bond, whether it's simply due to being able to use Stormlight or if there's more involved.

 

 

 

Oh, now I get it.

This is the quote regarding Bondsmith

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address

 

So this means that Shallan is bonded with Pattern before (or at the time?) she killed her mother using the shardblade. But shouldn't the bonding with a spren be done consciously? I mean she must be so young at that time. I thought that Shallan bonded when she confronts Jasnah and confesses that she killed her father.

 

 

Shallan was bonded to Pattern very early, and then surpassed the memory.  I don't think there's anything conscious about the bond beginning, since Kaladin didn't know anything about Syl until he'd begun bonding her, but there is definitely a need to understand and say the First Ideal at least, and it's implied

Shallan had spoken several Truth's beyond that, advancing at least to be able to use Pattern as her blade at least.

 

jW

Edited September 16, 2015 by Jondesu

[Moogle]

But Shallan has that ability much before she has actually bonded, right? In Lightweavers case I think the members already have an artistic talent which helped them to be recruited into that order.

 

Shallan has been bonded to Pattern since she was a child, so we don't know if she had an ability to take Memories before she bonded. I would guess she didn't.

 

Shallan pushed Pattern away, almost but not quite breaking the bond, but she re-strengthened the bond after her accidental Soulcasting and telling of truths.

 

Skybreaker: The ability to know if a man is guilty or not.

Bondsmith: I don't know what is their power but in a Epitapht is stated that "Use the unique Bondsmith's power to put end at the Voidbringer" (This are not the original words).

 

Skybreakers specifically are mentioned as having a skill which "no specific spren or Surge" grants, so if knowing someone's guilty is a power of theirs (which we don't know), it's definitely not a unique power like Memories:

There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate. ”[/size]

—Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

Bondsmiths we don't know either, but I definitely don't think that its related to destroying Voidbringers:

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18^%5B6%5D

It basically sounds like Bondsmiths get strategic genius. And this matches what we see of Dalinar: at the start of WoR, on a gemheart hunt, he tells another highprince that he's going to lose a battle and exactly what to do to turn it around. (This also fits with Bondsmiths being "Guiding".)

[DreamEternal]

It's implied, though possibly misleading, that his bond with Syl has some connection to his fighting ability. It's possible it's just improved reflexes, speed, and strength that every Radiant would get, but it could easily be a specific benefit of the bond with an Honorspren like Syl instead of a Cryptic like Pattern. There's some significant debate over what the quote I'm thinking of actually means, but it's at least undeniable that he's better at fighting because of the bond, whether it's simply due to being able to use Stormlight or if there's more involved.

Shallan was bonded to Pattern very early, and then surpassed the memory. I don't think there's anything conscious about the bond beginning, since Kaladin didn't know anything about Syl until he'd begun bonding her, but there is definitely a need to understand and say the First Ideal at least, and it's implied

Shallan had spoken several Truth's beyond that, advancing at least to be able to use Pattern as her blade at least.

jW

Just nitpicking, but I don't think it was confirmed there is a one to one correlation between truts and oaths.

I posted my theory on the Lightweaver progression in my Truthwatcher thread if you want to see an alternative explanation for Shallan's early power.

[Jondesu]

Just nitpicking, but I don't think it was confirmed there is a one to one correlation between truts and oaths.

I posted my theory on the Lightweaver progression in my Truthwatcher thread if you want to see an alternative explanation for Shallan's early power.

Not one to one maybe, but definitely confirmed by Pattern that she needed to speak truths to progress.  Either way, she'd obviously progressed in her bond and talents far beyond where she is now, before nearly severing her bond.

 

jW

[Yata]

 

It basically sounds like Bondsmiths get strategic genius. And this matches what we see of Dalinar: at the start of WoR, on a gemheart hunt, he tells another highprince that he's going to lose a battle and exactly what to do to turn it around. (This also fits with Bondsmiths being "Guiding".)

Recently I began to think that the BondSmith could break another bond (the dialog from Syl and the Stormfather when she return to Kal, suggests this to me). And a Bondsmith could virtually break the Listener's bond.

This could be "destroy the Voidbringer".

 

It's unlikely, but I had this Idea in mind from days XD

[DreamEternal]

Not one to one maybe, but definitely confirmed by Pattern that she needed to speak truths to progress. Either way, she'd obviously progressed in her bond and talents far beyond where she is now, before nearly severing her bond.

jW

My theory is that Lightweavers progress extremely fast after the first oath by merely mastering their lies, but regress very easily after traumatic experiences. The truths would be only a way to repair their bond.

[The Honor Spren]

jW

Completely unrelated, why do you end all your posts like this? You could always just stick it in your signature. (Not meaning to sound critical, only curious)

Now to go related:

It has been confirmed that the truths are their other 4 oaths. It's just the way it works.

Edited September 16, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[natc]

Oh, now I get it.

This is the quote regarding Bondsmith

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address

So this means that Shallan is bonded with Pattern before (or at the time?) she killed her mother using the shardblade. But shouldn't the bonding with a spren be done consciously? I mean she must be so young at that time. I thought that Shallan bonded when she confronts Jasnah and confesses that she killed her father.

Well, Pattern is the shardblade so of course she was bonded

[DreamEternal]

Completely unrelated, why do you end all your posts like this? You could always just stick it in your signature. (Not meaning to sound critical, only curious)

Now to go related:

It has been confirmed that the truths are their other 4 oaths. It's just the way it works.

It has? I was not aware of that. If it is nit too much trouble, can someone post the WoB?

[The Honor Spren]

It has? I was not aware of that. If it is nit too much trouble, can someone post the WoB?

It's not in a WoB (or at least not that I know of). It's in the book

Edited September 16, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[DreamEternal]

It's not in a WoB (or at least not that I know of, it's in the book)

No, it isn't. Pattern says Lightweavers only speak the first oath abd that Shallan needs to say truths to progress. That is perfectly in line with my hypothesis that truths are only required after a regression, since reversing a regression is progressing.

Edited September 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis]

Lift can metabolize food directly into Stormlight, which we know is not an Edgedancer trait. Just because we saw that Renarin can see the future, this does not automatically mean it's related to being a Truthwatcher. It might be, but as the OP says, this seems entirely out of character with what we know of the Truthwatchers. It might just be like Shallan's memory, which doesn't necessarily make sense, either... apparently she's making a spiritual connection (maybe via Soulcasting?) to bind her to the thing in a way that allows her to craft it as an illusion. Jasnah's ability, her geolocation, must be somehow tied in to Transportation?

[DreamEternal]

Why must all abilities be linked to the surges? The surges are not word based powers that emcompass everything the word does, but well defined powers given nice sounding names. Kaladin having exceptionaly strong/numerous squires is not linked to gravitation or adhesion. Shallan memories are not a product if her illumination surge, but something linked to their order's memmonic abilities. Renarin's visions are very likely to be just this: a strange power that comes in the "Truthwatcher" package togheter, but distinct from, the surges.

@Oudeis: why are the visions something that doens't fit what we know of truthwatchers? We know they were esoteric, secretive and tactful. Nothing against visions there.

If we assume they are mathematical guesses coupled with investiture-provided insight, them divulgating their visions could risk making the information lose some value by adding more variables to the system, so it makes sense for them to be relutant to speak, act or mix with the other orders.

Edited September 16, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis]

@Oudeis: why are the visions something that doens't fit what we know of truthwatchers? We know they were esoteric, secretive and tactful. Nothing against visions there.

 

Honor: To speak of what is to come is forbidden.

 

I know people mince words here... well if it's just a mathematical guess then it's not "what's to come"... Honor doesn't strike me as a grammar nazi, I could be wrong. I feel like taking him at his word in the manner he seemed to intend it. If it weren't for this line, I wouldn't have so much trouble believing it's simply something all Truthwatchers do.

[Moogle]

Honor: To speak of what is to come is forbidden.

 

I know people mince words here... well if it's just a mathematical guess then it's not "what's to come"... Honor doesn't strike me as a grammar nazi, I could be wrong. I feel like taking him at his word in the manner he seemed to intend it. If it weren't for this line, I wouldn't have so much trouble believing it's simply something all Truthwatchers do.

 

Honor says to speak of what to come is forbidden, not that seeing the future is in and of itself a problem. Of note, Truthwatchers are noted as being secretive - perhaps they're just following Honor's restriction on not telling what they see in their visions. (If they all have visions. Which seems quite likely to me, but is not confirmed by any means.)

 

Honor even looks into the future himself, and says Cultivation is very good at seeing the future without expressing judgement. If there's a Shard I wouldn't expect to have double standards, it'd be Honor.

 

Perhaps I'm just interpreting him too liberally, though. I'm not too confident in my analysis here.

[Yata]

I thing at this "Talents" like a effect of the Surges-Principles manifested in a way unique in the Order.

Why must all abilities be linked to the surges? The surges are not word based powers that emcompass everything the word does, but well defined powers given nice sounding names. Kaladin having exceptionaly strong/numerous squires is not linked to gravitation or adhesion. Shallan memories are not a product if her illumination surge, but something linked to their order's memmonic abilities. Renarin's visions are very likely to be just this: a strange power that comes in the "Truthwatcher" package togheter, but distinct from, the surges.
 

The high squire generation, could be see as Adhesion realted thing.

Same thing:
geological-trasportation
futuresight-Progression&Illumination together (it's quite an illusion of the possible outcome)

 

Probably it's not so simple, but could be something like that.

[Kelek's Breath]

Honor says to speak of what to come is forbidden, not that seeing the future is in and of itself a problem. Of note, Truthwatchers are noted as being secretive - perhaps they're just following Honor's restriction on not telling what they see in their visions. (If they all have visions. Which seems quite likely to me, but is not confirmed by any means.)

 

Honor even looks into the future himself, and says Cultivation is very good at seeing the future without expressing judgement. If there's a Shard I wouldn't expect to have double standards, it'd be Honor..

 

I agree with you.

I always thought Honor restricts seeing the future, because you should choose to be Honorable regardless of the future. If you know the future, you may change your actions or the actions of others.

I always thought Honor can see the future (as referenced by him in the last vision in TWoK) where he says the future is like a mirror that is shattered in many pieces (or something close-on vacation and have no books with me). He even shows Dalinar in that vision what he fears may come to pass if Odium wins.

[natc]

The actual glassware referenced is actually windows, I believe.

If someone like Ruin who gets so easily distracted and out-planned somehow is composed of investiture mostly easily allomantically directed towards seeing the future (with this ability strangely being harder to produce by burning Preservation's investiture, if I recall correctly, despite the poor chap spouting so many prophecies), I suppose even Honor should be able to see a little.

[Jondesu]

Completely unrelated, why do you end all your posts like this? You could always just stick it in your signature. (Not meaning to sound critical, only curious)

Now to go related:

It has been confirmed that the truths are their other 4 oaths. It's just the way it works.

Heh, just a habit I picked up years ago.  If you were on the MacRumors forums 3-4 years ago (or earlier), you'd have seen it a lot probably, and a few other places.

 

As for the truths/oaths, I don't think it was confirmed that 4 truths = 4 oaths, though, which is what was being commented on (that I may have implied unintentionally).  I also disagree with CognitivePulsePattern's idea that Lightweavers progress unusually quickly; I think we're given an incorrect impression by how quickly Shallan is progressing now, but only because she is relearning rather than learning this all for the first time.  She's a very broken, self-delusional girl who is nearly at the point of multiple personalities, and is going to take a long time to heal those wounds even with Pattern's help.

 

jW