About Alendi and the Well of Ascension

[Yata he/him]

Spoiler from the first Mistborn trilogy.

 

 

We know that Alendi was the (maybe) first try of Ruin to free himself.

Alendi was a Seeker (Bronze Misting) when the Allomancy was much rare and weak. So we could assume that Alendi was a Seeker much weak than Marsh.

Vin was a powerfull Allomancer (compared to the allomancer of her age) and she need a Hemalurgic Spike to detect the Well of Ascension pulses (Spike made from a probably powerfull seeker misting).

 

 

We know Alendi had at least one "prophesied spike" (I don't have the English version of the book then I am not sure of the original worlds) but it is not to much (for me) a spike made from his era misting to reach his goal.

 

Then how much additional power (and Spikes) Alendi needed for his quest ? You see other ways from him (and Ruin) to complete the journey ?

Edited September 8, 2015 by Yata

[Jondesu he/him]

I was pretty certain it was actually Ruin's influence making Alendi and Vin feel the well, rather than them actually picking it up with heightened bronze. I suspect Alendi just had the one spike, and didn't need any more because Ruin just made him think he was sensing the well.

jW

[Oudeis he/him]

Personal theory: We know the Shards can directly power their own arcana. I personally believe that it didn't matter how much charge was in the spike; as long as it was hemalurgically-granted allomantic bronze, Ruin could power it to the point of being able to detect the Well.

 

Worth noting, there came a point when Vin could hear the pulsing without even burning bronze. Also worth noting: She was able to sense it from outside the Central Dominance; Alendi first felt it when he was in the mountains. Also, Vin detected it very slightly in the very first book, well more than a year before the Well filled and could be used, months before the mistsickness began. Alendi only sensed it, not only when he was close, but within weeks of taking the power.

 

EDIT: Alternate theory that just occurred to me. Tineyes see through the mists, because their bodies are attuned to Preservation. Maybe normal Seekers, of whatever power, are so "attuned" to Preservation that the pulses of the Well pass right through them with no resistance. Maybe the fact of a hemalurgic spike "turned them against the current" as it were, and that's why they could sense the Well.

 

Worth noting: Do we know if Marsh was able to sense the Well at any point after he got his spike? I don't think we get a POV from him between the spiking and the Well being used. We know he knows where it is, but by then he's under Ruin's control.

 

Back while they still sorta trusted Marsh, I'm surprised Ruin didn't use that to somehow tell Vin where the Well was. We know Ruin wanted her to find it.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Oudeis

[Yata he/him]

I was pretty certain it was actually Ruin's influence making Alendi and Vin feel the well, rather than them actually picking it up with heightened bronze. I suspect Alendi just had the one spike, and didn't need any more because Ruin just made him think he was sensing the well.

jW

This is the same think a friend told to me, but if Ruin could "could made him think he was sensing the well" there is no point in use twice a Seeker as tools, any Spiked-Man could do the same think.

 

 

Personal theory: We know the Shards can directly power their own arcana. I personally believe that it didn't matter how much charge was in the spike; as long as it was hemalurgically-granted allomantic bronze, Ruin could power it to the point of being able to detect the Well.

If Ruin was free, no problem with this idea. But he could not send his mist to power-up Vin or Alendi. If he's not free.

 

Your point on the distance from the well is really a good point, but then a Average Seeker in the city could sense the pulses but I can't remember anything like this.

 

Marsh in Inquisitor-form had a Double-Bronze so likely could sense the well (probably is on the same or highter level of Vin in this) but in my first post I used him in his not-Hemalurgic-Incarnation, to compare the modern allomancer to the pre-Rashek ones.

 

EDIT: I could solved the mystery.So Alendi had multiple Spikes on him. 

 

 

I think I've finally discovered why Rashek resents me so very much. He does not believe that an outsider such as myself - a foreigner - could possibly be the Hero of Ages. He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Yata

[Oudeis he/him]

That's possible, but Seekers like Marsh are many orders of magnitude more powerful than Alendi. The number of spikes he would need, he'd look like Pinhead. The alternate theory has been proposed that each Spike was used to kill SO MANY Seekers they finally built up a huge charge. I find issues with either theory.

 

We know Ruin's mind wasn't totally free, but we also know he was still able to influence people, not even just the spiked but the crazy. Is it not possible he was able to power Alendi and Vin a bit? Also, if my alternate theory about how purely allomantic bronze couldn't sense Preservation's Investiture for the same reason tin filters the mist is true, it still works... though it doesn't answer why Alendi had to be a Seeker in the first place. Do we know he was a natural Seeker with a spike, or was he a Seeker by virtue of the spike?

[Yata he/him]

 

 

I suspect that Alendi, the man Rashek killed, was himself a Misting—a Seeker. Allomancy, however, was a different thing in those days, and much more rare. The Allomancers alive in our day are the descendants of the men who ate those few beads of Preservation's power. They formed the foundation of the nobility, and were the first to name him emperor.

Sazed suspect he was a Seeker. It's not a 100% sure fact.

[Oudeis he/him]

Here's another question. Is a hemalurgist, a Misting? Does Misting mean, person born with one allomantic power? Or does it mean, someone who currently possesses one allomantic power? Was Quellion (the Citizen) a Misting once he got his spike? Who is doing the defining, and what's the definition?

 

I would suggest that without the word Misting, a normal person with a spike granting bronze allomancy would definitely be considered a Seeker.

 

Stormlight Archive

Szeth was certainly a Surgebinder, yes? Was he a Windrunner, or not?

[Yata he/him]

Without the world of the Highty and Mighty Brandon we couldn't say if the "misting word" could be use to a Hemalurgic gifted human. But in my own opinion no.

It's like to say that a Frankenstein's Monster (I have written the name wrong, i know) are a human just because of the patchwork work on him.

 

Then if you call a One-Allomantic-Spiked Misting (and a 51-Allomantic-Spiked Mistborn), how do you call a 2,3,4,.... Spiked ?

 

 

For your other question:

 Szeth was a surgebinder but not a Windrunner.

Jezrien was not a Windrunner and the honorspren who imitated his blade do a different job. I don't speak only of the Stormlight's efficents.

But also of other ability of the Nahael-Bond that are different to the Honorblade-Bond. (Shardplate for example)

Edited September 8, 2015 by Yata

[Shadowspren he/him]

Hang on, the question was raised about why exactly Ruin couldn't use an Inquisitor to free him from his captivation. And the answer was obviously because someone with a Hemalurgic spike can't take the power of Preservation. 

 

Vin's earring is small enough that it doesn't kill her when it is taken out, but Ruin knew that Leras's mind was spent enough (from his trapping of Ruin) that he could more freely manipulate the minds of men. I don't think it was his Hemalurgy that allowed people to sense the well. 

 

In HoA,

it is said that the power of the Well changed Vin slightly so that she was able to take in the Mists. It also says that Preservation chose Vin to take in the Mists even when she was a child (possibly before she was even born) so I think it was through Preservation's choice, it was just that Ruin was able to spike her... and therefore influence her to accomplish his own ends

 

So I think it is Preservation's power/ influence (allomancy) that allows someone to sense the well, but a common factor in both Alendi and Vin was that Ruin manipulated them into thinking that they should give up the power... Whereas, Rashek, who I assume wasn't spiked at the time knew that it was imperative that they use the power rather than give it up. In which case, Preservation thought it more important to not release Ruin and was willing to let Alendi die...

 

The first time, Ruin  manipulated Alendi into releasing him, and Preservation managed to get Rashek to kill him and stop him from releasing Ruin.

The second time, Ruin manipulated Vin, and Preservation got through to Sazed. However Ruin had Marsh at his disposal and was able to stop Sazed from stopping Vin.

 

I think the Hemalurgy doesn't give them the ability to sense the Well, Preservation wanted someone to take the power so they could then take intake the Mists... But Ruin used his spikes to manipulate the 'chosen' people into setting him free in the process

Edited September 9, 2015 by Shadowspren

[Yata he/him]

I didn't say that the Hemalurgy are the way to sense the Well, just a Mighty Seeker is (probably) needed, if you aren't a so powerfull Seeker, the Hemalurgy come to help (murdening another Seeker) to reach the needed power. Probably a Lerasium-Mistborn are capable of sense the well without help, but the only Mistborn of this power in that period was dead or no-allomancer.

 

Oudeis said that at some point Vin could sense the Well without the Spike, but I suppose she was in the city (very very near to the well indeed) and the Well was again filled with the power of Preservation.

Alendi with all his spikes could sense the full Well only when he was in the Terris Mountains (always thanks to Oudeis) probably because he was still under the Vin's Power.

 

PS: Preservation did expected all the Ruin's Plan before Ruin Itself thoughts about. The Manipolation of the "choseen" was actually part of Presetion's plan, like also the release of Ruin.

[Oudeis he/him]

That I know of, she never sensed the well without the spike, she sensed it without burning bronze.

 

Which gets into the nature of bronze, of course. We know bronze does something internal and mental. So it's pushing on something inside of yourself, and that causes your body to sense when allomancy is being used (or other things, clearly). Why was she still able to sense the well when she wasn't actively pushing on anything inside herself, at all? Was she a bronze savant at this point? Was it all in her head; she she simply believe she felt the pulses after months of listening for them constantly? Is part of being a bronze hemalurgist that your power is always 'on', if only a little bit?

 

Basically, this fact is a slight indication that our understanding of the Metallic Arts might not be all we think it is.

[Yata he/him]

That I know of, she never sensed the well without the spike, she sensed it without burning bronze.

Sorry I didn't read correctly your post

[Oudeis he/him]

No worries! Very minor distinction. I assure you, I've been misread worse.

 

And I hadn't even thought of this... is there ever a time she sense the Well without her earring? I believe she's wearing it more-or-less constantly for that whole book.

 

Raising another question... ostensibly, the reason to keep her earring is to use it as a weapon if she ever needs a final scrap of metal. She even does so, in Hero of Ages. Why, then, doesn't she use it when she's having her "the floor is lava" contest with Zane? For that matter, why is she so surprised when he gets a coin out of nowhere? Coin in the mouth is somewhat useful, but wouldn't it have worked just as well with like, a belly-button ring or something? I guess it's a little easier to hide than an earring if you have a coin in your mouth, but her reaction is that it's something impossible no one has ever thought of... when she has a trick of her own very similar. Which she somehow doesn't use.

 

I guess Vin just didn't think of it. Which is fair, sometimes people just don't think of things. It's not like touching the ground first was life-or-death.

[Yata he/him]

In my mind the reason is Ruin's Influence. He don't want that she thinks at the ring as a weapon. Probably her thought was manipulated. Like Zane who often don't think at the spike inside his chest.

 

Maybe at the beginning The earing-weapon idea was usefull to Ruin. But once She was wearing the earing every day. He must be forget her about.

Without the earing Ruin can't manipulate Vin after all.

[Oudeis he/him]

But she does use it, against Marsh. And this is after Ruin is free, and presumably has greater influence, and is directly looking right at her, we know for a fact, whereas in her fight with Zane his mind/attention may have been elsewhere. I also don't think we need to look for supernatural effect; sometimes people just don't think of something. There's no special reason this should have been so obvious it's a wonder she missed it. Like I said, it was just a game.

[Yata he/him]

But she does use it, against Marsh. And this is after Ruin is free, and presumably has greater influence, and is directly looking right at her, we know for a fact, whereas in her fight with Zane his mind/attention may have been elsewhere. I also don't think we need to look for supernatural effect; sometimes people just don't think of something. There's no special reason this should have been so obvious it's a wonder she missed it. Like I said, it was just a game.

Sure, but maybe once free, Ruin saw her earing as less important and He had his attenction focus on controlling Marsh and finding his missing body.

[Jondesu he/him]

Was she a bronze savant at this point?

You know, I'd never thought about it, but it is mentioned that she's pretty much always burning bronze, I think both because she detected the mist shadow, and because she was worried about attacks on herself and Elend.  She very well may have been a Bronze savant by then.

 

jW

[Oudeis he/him]

Just to be clear, there's a WoB somewhere that most Seekers are savants; it's just an incredibly easy metal to always be burning with no bad side effects. So, it's not a matter of savanting = sense the well. But I wonder if it might be part of it; do Savants have that bit of themselves permanently 'pushed', even when not burning? That would seem to be the opposite of Tin savanthood... when Spook stops burning, he can barely experience the world. Of course, tin is pulling and bronze is pushing, so maybe having opposite savantness makes sense? Maybe tin lets you burn more, better, but with the drawback if you stop, while bronze savants instead get their button stuck to 'on'... though I may suddenly be recalling a WoB saying that bronze savants get larger ranges... I should look these quotes up. Any thoughts?

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

With most metals the effects are quite small, Seekers for example often become savants without being aware of it, this grants them a boost to the range of their abilities.

 

From the Coppermind article on savants.  There's no source, so I take it with a grain of salt.  I'm still looking for others.  I will edit if I find anymore.

 

Edit:

Found it in the Hero of Ages Epigraphs, Chapter 16, emphasis mine.

  They are called Allomantic savants. Men or women who flare their metals so long, and so hard, that the constant influx of Allomantic power transforms their very physiology.

In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long. Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn't worth the effort.

Tin savants, however . . . now, they are something special. Endowed with senses beyond what any normal Allomancer would need—or even want—they become slaves to what they touch, hear, see, smell, and taste. Yet, the abnormal power of these senses gives them a distinct, and interesting, advantage.

One could argue that, like an Inquisitor who has been transformed by a Hemalurgic spike, the Allomantic savant is no longer even human.

 

That said though, Sazed's knowledge may be incomplete and Vin sensing the Well is a part of her savantism.  I'm partial to the theory that it was Ruin's influence that made her still sense the Well when she wasn't burning bronze.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Ascendant Warrior

[Zephryl]

It seems that the Hemalurgically gained Bronze was important, since I believe it was mentioned that Ruin had to wait until a perfect scenario arose (That being a Mistborn in a position of receiving a Spike from a strong enough Bronze Misting while also in the vicinity of someone crazy or spiked enough to be influenced by Ruin) for his plans to work. Although I think that was also Sazed speculations, so, it could very well be wrong.

 

But, it makes me think that maybe it's not actually the Well of Ascension that they're sensing, but Ruin's confined consciousness.

 

I'm not even sure if the Sacred Piercings were even proper Hemalurgic Spikes, personally. I think it more likely that Ruin can influence anyone wearing any kind of piercing in one of the correct locations, even if the Spike isn't "Charged". Similar to how Allomancers can burn any metal, even though the majority of them do nothing or have adverse affects. 

 

SoS Spoiler:

Also, Wax's piercing in SoS allows communion with Harmony and presumably didn't involve grizzly human sacrifice, nor grants any abilities. Though it's possible that Harmony modified Hemalurgy to work this way, I'm not sure if Harmony can actually affect the Metallic Arts themselves or just "Outside" elements like how Snapping functioned.

 

 

As to the Earring-weaponry, I think that was Ruin's influence myself. He wanted her to not think about it, so she'd keep it in as often as possible, but he can only influence so much and it took stressful situations before she'd risk damaging/losing it. 

 

[Oudeis he/him]

It did have a charge. I'm reasonably sure there's a WoB out there somewhere confirming it's actually a small piece of one of the spikes of an Inquisitor.

[Yata he/him]

As to the Earring-weaponry, I think that was Ruin's influence myself. He wanted her to not think about it, so she'd keep it in as often as possible, but he can only influence so much and it took stressful situations before she'd risk damaging/losing it. 

Ruin (and now Harmony) has a "backdoor" to the human's mind. But the average human mind is too strong to influence (unless the madness).

With the Hemalurgic weakness (weakness to mental influence) he could talk to everyone with an Hemalurgic Spike. And with the right number of Spike He or Everyone with "mental-manipulation-power" could take the control of the Spiked.

 

Sazed uses this ability of the Spike to talk with his Believer in the Meaningfull moment. The Path Religion teach to wear the earing in important times.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Yata

[Kaymyth she/her]

It did have a charge. I'm reasonably sure there's a WoB out there somewhere confirming it's actually a small piece of one of the spikes of an Inquisitor.

 

Yes; if I remember correctly, all or almost all of the Pathian earrings are made out of melted-down Inquisitor spikes.

[Yata he/him]

Yes; if I remember correctly, all or almost all of the Pathian earrings are made out of melted-down Inquisitor spikes.

or maybe the Koloss' spike.

 

Maybe the "main actor" in Harmony's plan are given a Inquisitor's Spike (with the possibility to give to them power when needed) and the other koloss' spikes to use only with comunication (the Physical-Strenght residual charge must be very very low).

[natc]

There's no "maybe". They're inquisitor spikes.

That have been split to multiple spikes just to make them earing-sized, most likely, on top of being left out of a living body for a considerable amount of tI'd expect. The power probably barely matters.