How did Jasnah break?

[maxal]

I believe the reason some people claim having Jasnah chose the life of a scholar as opposed to the life of a married woman for personal reasons not linked to past abuses makes her stronger is not in terms of character strength. Many of us think it appealing she would have genuinely chose to evolve outside the normality of her society and to turn this choice into the consequence of an unfortunate past as opposed to have her voluntarily chose it makes up for a lesser story arc. In other words, it is not Jasnah, as a person, who would be weaker had she been abused, but her choice. If the reasons behind it is past abuse, then her choice to become a single scholar does not bear the same strength. In fact, the second there is either an abuse or an shunned upon sexual orientation to justify her life of celibacy, then it stops being her choice.

 

Many of us want Jasnah to have chosen this life, not have it impose on her by circumstances outside her control. That is what people mean when they say it would make her a weaker character. 

[02ranger]

On Jasnah and men... there's all sorts of things that could be going on there. She could be differently oriented, (ie. asexual or lesbian) she could have decided she doesn't like being in relationships for perfectly legitimate reasons, (for instance, some people just aren't good at relationships and enjoy being single more) or she could have suffered some abuse that has left her unable to trust enough for that sort of relationship. (People leap to this explanation out of a reason- it is depressingly common for women to have had some very unpleasant experiences in their romantic and sexual histories.)

 

That said, I'd like to add a few things. If Jasnah isn't interested in men in part because of some incident of abuse, this does not necessarily make her a weak character. In fact, many of the strongest women would react that way to such an experience, because sometimes being in a position of more power in the first place gives you that much further to fall. And if the madness of the events going on hasn't given her the appropriate time to heal yet, being assertive and shutting down that side of her life is probably a very rational thing for Jasnah to do, and something that reflects her strength. Having being abused doesn't make someone weak. In fact, surviving abuse and going through the healing process afterwards is a mark of incredible personal strength. Don't rule this possibility out just because you don't want Jasnah to have been through something that, at the time, might have made her feel less-than-powerful. It wouldn't undermine who she is as a character.

 

I honestly have no strong suspicions yet, although abuse is the one I've heard that seems to fit best so far, it's certainly not a slam dunk with the small bits we know about Jasnah's personal life. (Then again, given how quiet abuse is usually kept, it's one of those things that there's only a subtle difference between "not abused" and "keeping it under wraps")

If she was abused, who would have done it? There's evidence in this thread that she got along decently with her father, so he's probably out of the "running", so to speak. I don't see anybody else in her family being abusive given what we know of them, and who would attack the highprince/king's daughter? I know it could have happened and Jasnah just never told anybody, but she doesn't strike me as the type to be a quiet victim. I think if it happened she'd be strong enough to accuse them out loud. Unless it was while she was a child, but again it raises the question of who would be crazy enough to attack Gavilar's daughter?

 

Not saying it isn't possible, in fact the more theories I read the more some sort of abuse seems likely in her past, I just wonder who would have been that bold.

[mirahound]

I believe the reason some people claim having Jasnah chose the life of a scholar as opposed to the life of a married woman for personal reasons not linked to past abuses makes her stronger is not in terms of character strength. Many of us think it appealing she would have genuinely chose to evolve outside the normality of her society and to turn this choice into the consequence of an unfortunate past as opposed to have her voluntarily chose it makes up for a lesser story arc. In other words, it is not Jasnah, as a person, who would be weaker had she been abused, but her choice. If the reasons behind it is past abuse, then her choice to become a single scholar does not bear the same strength. In fact, the second there is either an abuse or an shunned upon sexual orientation to justify her life of celibacy, then it stops being her choice.

 

Many of us want Jasnah to have chosen this life, not have it impose on her by circumstances outside her control. That is what people mean when they say it would make her a weaker character. 

I disagree. I think choosing a lifestyle that is both something you enjoy AND something that is safe from abuse is one of the bravest choices Jasnah could have made. And I think the coolest thing is that she hasn't completely shut herself off in order to do it. As mentioned, she's open to new ideas, and to going back to old ideas. If a devotary manages to convince her to return to Vorinism, she's willing to give it a try. That suggests to me that if someone can convince her marriage is worth the risk, she's willing to try again, which means she's HEALING. That, to me, makes an incredibly powerful story and character.

[maxal]

I disagree. I think choosing a lifestyle that is both something you enjoy AND something that is safe from abuse is one of the bravest choices Jasnah could have made. And I think the coolest thing is that she hasn't completely shut herself off in order to do it. As mentioned, she's open to new ideas, and to going back to old ideas. If a devotary manages to convince her to return to Vorinism, she's willing to give it a try. That suggests to me that if someone can convince her marriage is worth the risk, she's willing to try again, which means she's HEALING. That, to me, makes an incredibly powerful story and character.

 

No, because it open the door for her to have chosen another life style. If the abuse if the reason of her choice, then her choice is lesser: it means it was not her first choice, but the best choice she could make given the circumstances. Besides, the strong choice for one who was abused is to give relationships a try, not to shut from them as this is merely avoiding the issue. I have read none of that in Jasnah.

 

Jasnah is someone who works with the truth which means she is willing to consider any logic argumentation and shall she be proven wrong on all fronts, she has not quarrel switching her allegiances. It depicts a truly intellectual individual who does not believe in the concept of faith as faith does not require absolute proof. She is open to the devotaries because she is smart enough to consider the possibility she may be wrong and there may be a fail-proof explanation to Vorinism she could be able to endorse. Alas, she has not find it yet and is thus, an atheism. It is quite typical of nowadays atheism: many would be willing to believe, should they be given sufficient proof. Brandon made research on that particular aspect and this is the angle he chose to explore with Jasnah.

 

However, it does not have anything to do with marriage. Marriage is not a belief or a theory, it is simply an union she sees as limiting as she would need to give up some of her research to accommodate her duties as a wife. She has made it clear she was not willing to compromise. She cannot be convinced marriage is a good thing because marriage is not a truth or knowledge. It is simply an union and as all unions, it demands compromises. She won't make them, hence she chose not to marry.

 

There is nothing in Jasnah behavior that suggest past trauma such as abuse. Her interactions with her father and her thoughts on Amaram, which all happened after the said trauma as she was bonding Ivory, do not indicate anything of the sorts. If her reason to refuse to marry Amaram was linked to rape, her line of thoughts would have been interlaced with fear. She seemed merely annoyed at having her father keep on pushing forward potential husbands.

 

My thoughts on Jasnah are the simplest one: she bears the scars of an individual who chosen a difficult less walked on path while being a princess everyone glares at.

[02ranger]

My thoughts on Jasnah are the simplest one: she bears the scars of an individual who chosen a difficult less walked on path while being a princess everyone glares at.

Would that be enough to break her and open her up to a bond, though? How broken does somebody need to be to be able to form a bond with a spren? Kaladin and Shallan both had some pretty horrific stuff happen to them. Dalinar and Renarin don't seem to have been broken to the same extent, and we don't really know with Jasnah. Do we have any idea how far a person has to be pushed to be able to form a nahel bond?

[maxal]

Would that be enough to break her and open her up to a bond, though? How broken does somebody need to be to be able to form a bond with a spren? Kaladin and Shallan both had some pretty horrific stuff happen to them. Dalinar and Renarin don't seem to have been broken to the same extent, and we don't really know with Jasnah. Do we have any idea how far a person has to be pushed to be able to form a nahel bond?

 

Those are very valid questions I have asked myself. I guess the answer is we don't know. It has been hinted Shallan was not broken, but merely cracked which has made me assume one does not need to have a life of tragedy such as Kaladin to become a Radiant. It sure does not look as if Renarin's life was this dramatic as the most probable clue we have to justify his Radianhood is the low self-esteem developed by a boy unable to become a soldier due to a sickness. Sad, but common and not so tragic. It appears to have been enough. Based on what we have seen, it does not appear as if Jasnah is harboring some deep tragedy in her past either.

 

All in all, I do believe you need to be "trialed" in way to become a Radiant. You need to have endure enough hardships and to have surmounted them by being more Radian-like, just as Kaladin got more protective and Dalinar more pious. In other words, you need to be worthy of your future order.

 

How hard those hardships need to be? Enough to crack your soul. What is enough? I do not know, but I hope all characters are not repressing a horror story such as Kaladin or Shallan. It would seem as too much, just too much. 

 

Navigating through an abnormal frown upon life choice is enough for me to justify Ivory taking interest in Jasnah. She chose a less walked on path while having the whole world stare at her and got wiser ever since. It seems sufficient. 

 

Renarin did not chose his lifestyle, in fact he has done the opposite. He has spend his young life yearning to be what he could not be and to feel depreciated because of his inability to achieve it. How he got more learned, however, is still a mystery to me, but I figure it will get more obvious in future books.

 

As for Dalinar, he rejected a lifetime as a bloody warlord in order to consecrate himself to be honorable. He became very dedicated to the Way of Kings with a devotion akin to priests following their religion, hence he seems more pious. He repented his past crimes and strove to never repeat the same mistakes, but what broken him, I believe, was Galivar's death. It does not seem as much, but my pet-theory is Daliar's boon to the NIghtwatcher was linked to Galivar which would have made his death more difficult to bear.

 

All in all, I don't think they need to be physically torture to get to be a Radiant...

[02ranger]

Those are very valid questions I have asked myself. I guess the answer is we don't know. It has been hinted Shallan was not broken, but merely cracked which has made me assume one does not need to have a life of tragedy such as Kaladin to become a Radiant. It sure does not look as if Renarin's life was this dramatic as the most probable clue we have to justify his Radianhood is the low self-esteem developed by a boy unable to become a soldier due to a sickness. Sad, but common and not so tragic. It appears to have been enough. Based on what we have seen, it does not appear as if Jasnah is harboring some deep tragedy in her past either.

 

All in all, I do believe you need to be "trialed" in way to become a Radiant. You need to have endure enough hardships and to have surmounted them by being more Radian-like, just as Kaladin got more protective and Dalinar more pious. In other words, you need to be worthy of your future order.

 

How hard those hardships need to be? Enough to crack your soul. What is enough? I do not know, but I hope all characters are not repressing a horror story such as Kaladin or Shallan. It would seem as too much, just too much. 

 

Navigating through an abnormal frown upon life choice is enough for me to justify Ivory taking interest in Jasnah. She chose a less walked on path while having the whole world stare at her and got wiser ever since. It seems sufficient. 

 

Renarin did not chose his lifestyle, in fact he has done the opposite. He has spend his young life yearning to be what he could not be and to feel depreciated because of his inability to achieve it. How he got more learned, however, is still a mystery to me, but I figure it will get more obvious in future books.

 

As for Dalinar, he rejected a lifetime as a bloody warlord in order to consecrate himself to be honorable. He became very dedicated to the Way of Kings with a devotion akin to priests following their religion, hence he seems more pious. He repented his past crimes and strove to never repeat the same mistakes, but what broken him, I believe, was Galivar's death. It does not seem as much, but my pet-theory is Daliar's boon to the NIghtwatcher was linked to Galivar which would have made his death more difficult to bear.

 

All in all, I don't think they need to be physically torture to get to be a Radiant...

That's a really interesting thought about the Nightwatcher boon. I've been thinking a lot about that lately and hadn't considered it being related to Gavilar yet..........

 

As for the rest. Maybe the extent you have to be broken or the way you're broken is different for each order, too? So far we don't have any two characters from the same order, so we don't really have any evidence to prove or disprove it, but maybe that's part of how it's decided what order you're in is what's wrong with you. Maybe that pain attracts specific types of spren just like the major values you hold attract certain spren. It would make sense that an order centered around protecting others would endure a really painful past, cause that would likely motivate their desire to protect others from that same fate.

 

I guess it's all connected, as the way you're broken would influence your character and your character would influence what parts of you are vulnerable. Its an interesting way to look at the characters, I think.

[hoser]

From the evidence we see, Jasnah clearly has a negative history with Amaram, some men and Navani.  Amaram seems to be rotten at the core and, I imagine, would have seen acquiring a princess for a wife favorably.  I can see him pursuing her in an apparently aboveboard, but utterly unsavory way.  

Navani seems invasive, controlling and determined (but in a good way).  From Navani's description in WoR, there was a moment where Jasnah became distant to her.  Between Jasnah's comments to Dalinar and Navani's description, it seems to me that Jasnah decided that keeping Navani at a distance was necessary.  She does not exhibit the same animosity toward Gavilar. 

 

“‘ Send my mother my respect. Keep her at arm’s length, Uncle. She bites.’”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 423). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

I imagine that the moment that Jasnah decided that she needed to keep her mother at arm's length corresponded to her breaking, but I am at a loss to the cause.  Without her internal viewpoint, I don't know what significance different events would have had.  I could see it being due to abuse or being trapped.  The agent could have been Amaram, her mother or anybody in a position to try to control her.

[Oudeis]

Eh. Maybe my family is complicated. But I can think of a ton of relatives I love and would do anything for, whom I would nevertheless recommend people keep at arm's length, and whom I would expect to bite.

 

As for Jasnah and Amaram. I got the sense it was personal. I don't see Jasnah as someone to rule out all marriage, ever. When she says, "It would never happen," I don't see her saying, I will never marry, I see her saying, I will never be bound to that man. Given how we know Amaram acts when he need not keep up the polite lie of being a good person, I find it a natural conclusion to draw that she's seen through him; whether this means he was deliberately horrible to her or not is somewhat more up for debate. Like many people who are awful yet operate under the impression that everyone is secretly like them, he might be less guarded than someone who realizes they're terrible, genuinely surprised when the person they confide in is disgusted by them. It is regrettably common for a white person I've only just met to "commiserate" with me about how horrible black people are, and to express genuine shock when I express genuine horror.

 

I do not see a reason to assume Jasnah would forswear all marriage. Even if she foreswears having children. While the Alethi marriages we've seen having been shockingly romantic, surely the concept of marriage as a political alliance is at least feasible. After all, it's what Jasnah begins planning for Shallan. We do see that she find the bonds of marriage to be something inherently restrictive, but clearly not to the point of not being a valid option. She presumably also finds other necessary tasks to be onerous, but she never says "I would never under any circumstances sew myself a safeglove from the remnants of the hem of my skirt." Maybe not the best example but hopefully you understand what I mean.

 

Surely there could be a young man from some culture, someone intelligent she does not find repugnant, to whom she would consider the purely political arrangement of a marriage, on the assumption he keep a mistress/harem to satisfy his urges. Either an Alethi Noble, to cement some alliance and keep Alethkar from dividing, or even a foreigner; how interesting if she were to "marry" Rlain, a man who most of the time would have the same urge to procreate she does, to cement a new Alethi/listener alliance? Or Kaladin, perhaps. It's been spoken that, on the admittedly off-chance Torol Sadeas does not have a legitimate heir, Kaladin might be considered as a Highprince. Might it be more tenable to the others if he were first to become the brother-in-law of the King himself? I could see Jasnah, as she's been portrayed, finding the regrettable necessity of such an arrangement, and going ahead for the good of Alethkar, as long as she not be asked to perform any "wifely duties".

[StoneWalker]

Eh. Maybe my family is complicated. But I can think of a ton of relatives I love and would do anything for, whom I would nevertheless recommend people keep at arm's length, and whom I would expect to bite.

As for Jasnah and Amaram. I got the sense it was personal. I don't see Jasnah as someone to rule out all marriage, ever. When she says, "It would never happen," I don't see her saying, I will never marry, I see her saying, I will never be bound to that man. Given how we know Amaram acts when he need not keep up the polite lie of being a good person, I find it a natural conclusion to draw that she's seen through him; whether this means he was deliberately horrible to her or not is somewhat more up for debate. Like many people who are awful yet operate under the impression that everyone is secretly like them, he might be less guarded than someone who realizes they're terrible, genuinely surprised when the person they confide in is disgusted by them. It is regrettably common for a white person I've only just met to "commiserate" with me about how horrible black people are, and to express genuine shock when I express genuine horror.

I do not see a reason to assume Jasnah would forswear all marriage. Even if she foreswears having children. While the Alethi marriages we've seen having been shockingly romantic, surely the concept of marriage as a political alliance is at least feasible. After all, it's what Jasnah begins planning for Shallan. We do see that she find the bonds of marriage to be something inherently restrictive, but clearly not to the point of not being a valid option. She presumably also finds other necessary tasks to be onerous, but she never says "I would never under any circumstances sew myself a safeglove from the remnants of the hem of my skirt." Maybe not the best example but hopefully you understand what I mean.

Surely there could be a young man from some culture, someone intelligent she does not find repugnant, to whom she would consider the purely political arrangement of a marriage, on the assumption he keep a mistress/harem to satisfy his urges. Either an Alethi Noble, to cement some alliance and keep Alethkar from dividing, or even a foreigner; how interesting if she were to "marry" Rlain, a man who most of the time would have the same urge to procreate she does, to cement a new Alethi/listener alliance? Or Kaladin, perhaps. It's been spoken that, on the admittedly off-chance Torol Sadeas does not have a legitimate heir, Kaladin might be considered as a Highprince. Might it be more tenable to the others if he were first to become the brother-in-law of the King himself? I could see Jasnah, as she's been portrayed, finding the regrettable necessity of such an arrangement, and going ahead for the good of Alethkar, as long as she not be asked to perform any "wifely duties".

I agree with this assessment; Jasnah and Amaram seems personal. It makes sense when you think about that Jasnah is an Atheist and Amaram is devout to the point of being willing to start a desolation to bring the Heralds back. Amaram's reaction seems to be equally uninterested in a relationship with a professed heretic as Jasnah would be to be attached to such a openly devout person. It reads to me as if "it would never happen" because neither of them want anything to do with the other. It doesn't mean she would never get married, just that she wouldn't marry Amaram.

[Oudeis]

Actually from their interaction I didn't get that from Amaram; she's beautiful, well-connected, wealthy, and brilliant, everything he could desire in a woman. He also believes himself to be significantly smarter than he really is.

 

This is, admittedly, based on gut, but I always got the impression that he came to her, that he revealed something about himself, maybe his plans, or just pressed his suit in an ungentlemanly way. I could see him thinking that anyone as smart as Jasnah would have to see that his plan was brilliant, and being shocked when she shot him down. Or I could see him cornering her, having convinced himself that she wanted him, too, and that something terrible almost, or actually did, happen, and that only afterwards did it get through to him that she wasn't playing hard-to-get. I don't know why I think this, really. From that one scene, Amaram's demeanor and departure, it just gives me the sense that he knows she's has some power here; he did something, and she can rat him out. He's not quite afraid of her, but he knows it's a vulnerability. He's eager to avoid giving offense, because he wants to give her no reason or excuse to escalate anything, to use the weapons against him she has.

 

I fully understand that I'm extrapolating from the scene; I'm certain in a way I cannot justify. This from the guy who knew for sure that Sadeas was bald, and did not notice until his third read-through that one of the first descriptions of Sadeas, the only time his hair is referenced ever, mentions that it cascades down to his shoulders.

[kaellok]

I imagine that the moment that Jasnah decided that she needed to keep her mother at arm's length corresponded to her breaking, but I am at a loss to the cause.  Without her internal viewpoint, I don't know what significance different events would have had.  I could see it being due to abuse or being trapped.  The agent could have been Amaram, her mother or anybody in a position to try to control her.

I would agree that there is definitely a correlation between Jasnah's distance from her mother and when Jasnah broke/bonded Ivory.  However, think about it--her mother is an artifabrian, and all modern fabrials use trapped spren.  What would happen if a bonded, sentient spren were trapped to power a fabrial?  What sort of experiments would artifabrians wish to conduct?  (Even if Navani wouldn't have done these things, I can't imagine that she wouldn't start looking for other sentient/stronger spren as well, which would lead others, which would--bad things.)

 

Towards what broke Jasnah, physical abuse at the hands of a man that is hinted at is the boring answer.  It's the predictable answer.  I genuinely hope for it to be a red herring simply because I have higher expectations from Sanderson as an author.  And, if it had been Amaram, then Amaram would be dead.  I hope that we can all agree to that; she had secured the services of a Shardblade-wielding assassin, after all, and at the time Amaram had some political power and probably a well-crafted suit of armor and sword that would be zero defense at all.  Whatever problem that she had with him was something else entirely.

[mirahound]

I would agree that there is definitely a correlation between Jasnah's distance from her mother and when Jasnah broke/bonded Ivory.  However, think about it--her mother is an artifabrian, and all modern fabrials use trapped spren.  What would happen if a bonded, sentient spren were trapped to power a fabrial?  What sort of experiments would artifabrians wish to conduct?  (Even if Navani wouldn't have done these things, I can't imagine that she wouldn't start looking for other sentient/stronger spren as well, which would lead others, which would--bad things.)

 

Towards what broke Jasnah, physical abuse at the hands of a man that is hinted at is the boring answer.  It's the predictable answer.  I genuinely hope for it to be a red herring simply because I have higher expectations from Sanderson as an author.  And, if it had been Amaram, then Amaram would be dead.  I hope that we can all agree to that; she had secured the services of a Shardblade-wielding assassin, after all, and at the time Amaram had some political power and probably a well-crafted suit of armor and sword that would be zero defense at all.  Whatever problem that she had with him was something else entirely.

I'll definitely agree with your thoughts on Amaram. I think if Jasnah was abused, whoever committed the act is long dead. 

[Oudeis]

I would agree that there is definitely a correlation between Jasnah's distance from her mother and when Jasnah broke/bonded Ivory.  However, think about it--her mother is an artifabrian, and all modern fabrials use trapped spren.  What would happen if a bonded, sentient spren were trapped to power a fabrial?

 

This is a common theory I see floating around that I personally think holds absolutely no water.

 

First, the VAST PREPONDERANCE of spren in the physical realm are like fish; utterly mindless. It's like worrying that a woman is going to resort to slavery because she trains racehorses.

 

Second, we have no reason to assume spren are harmed in the trapping. When you light a fire, flamespren appear. Are they trapped? Do they hate it? Why would being in a gem be any worse? They are provided with a lot of Stormlight, and we know things in the cognitive realm LOVE stormlight.

 

Most people who train dogs for dog-sledding, for example, LOVE their dogs. They love dogs more than the average person does. They take care of their dogs. They feed their dogs. They shelter their dogs. If they were out for a walk and came upon a random dog, they'd prolly be more likely than the average person to stop and make sure the dog was okay. Yes, they keep their dogs behind a fence, possibly trained to not run away, for the dog's own protection. I feel like a lot of Sharders hear the word "trapped" and assume terrible abuse, and I don't see any evidence in the story to support this theory, nor do I think it's a natural assumption to leap to.

 

If something has a will, or even instinct, putting it in a position where it's trapped or abused or mistreated makes it fight against you. Given that we know most spren crave Stormlight, I suspect that if most spren could think, they'd envy the fabrial spren.

 

And, I cannot stress this enough, there is basically a statistically zero chance of a sentient spren being trapped in a gemstone. Bondable spren (note emphasis) are nonsentient. Any spren in the physical realm that is sentient, has already formed a bond. First of all, we know there are few enough Surgebinders (compared to the hundreds of Creationspren Shallan can summon with a drawing) that the odds of a sentient spren being taken, even if all else were equal, is practically nothing. And it's not equal; the person they're bonded to would in most cases do something to prevent their being put in a gem.

 

Worrying that Syl is going to end up stuck in a fabrial is like an alien coming to this planet, and worrying I'm going to be tested on in a lab when he hears that it happens to mice. But you're both mammals! There's nothing stopping the scientists from picking you instead of a mouse!

[02ranger]

Worrying that Syl is going to end up stuck in a fabrial is like an alien coming to this planet, and worrying I'm going to be tested on in a lab when he hears that it happens to mice. But you're both mammals! There's nothing stopping the scientists from picking you instead of a mouse!

People are worried about that? I've never really considered it, but even if it were possible for Syl to be trapped in a gem, I pity the poor soul that's dumb enough to try it when Kaladin finds out, Stormlight or no Stormlight.

Edited September 1, 2015 by 02ranger

[Oudeis]

People are worried about that?

 

It seems to be the case. Someone suggested that Jasnah broke because she was afraid her mother was going to start torturing sentient spren like Ivory... which seems odd, since would she have any personal connection to sentient spren before she broke and attracted Ivory? Even though she seems more aware than Kaladin of the theoretical existence of sentient spren (like how she seems to think the Nightwatcher is one) I don't see any reason to assume her mother is a sadistic torturer, or for such a moment to be what broke her.

 

I also read into their relationship less awfulness than I get the sense other people do. It happens. Your children grow up, and sometimes that means you grow apart. The adult Jasnah is has less in common with Navani than she might. They can be a bit stiff and formal with each other, there are points of contention, they have conflict. But they still talk, frequently. Navani clearly loves Jasnah very deeply, and Jasnah shows every evidence of returning the feelings (which does not preclude her recognizing that her mother has a certain predatory tendency). Yet when Jasnah has a question about fabrials, or wants to find a way to assist her ward politically, she turns without apparent hesitation to her mother.

 

I dunno. I'm a bit of a Jasnah fanboy, and perhaps I'm deliberately reading into it to make her seem nicer and not as harsh to her mother. I could be wrong.

[02ranger]

It seems to be the case. Someone suggested that Jasnah broke because she was afraid her mother was going to start torturing sentient spren like Ivory... which seems odd, since would she have any personal connection to sentient spren before she broke and attracted Ivory? Even though she seems more aware than Kaladin of the theoretical existence of sentient spren (like how she seems to think the Nightwatcher is one) I don't see any reason to assume her mother is a sadistic torturer, or for such a moment to be what broke her.

 

I also read into their relationship less awfulness than I get the sense other people do. It happens. Your children grow up, and sometimes that means you grow apart. The adult Jasnah is has less in common with Navani than she might. They can be a bit stiff and formal with each other, there are points of contention, they have conflict. But they still talk, frequently. Navani clearly loves Jasnah very deeply, and Jasnah shows every evidence of returning the feelings (which does not preclude her recognizing that her mother has a certain predatory tendency). Yet when Jasnah has a question about fabrials, or wants to find a way to assist her ward politically, she turns without apparent hesitation to her mother.

 

I dunno. I'm a bit of a Jasnah fanboy, and perhaps I'm deliberately reading into it to make her seem nicer and not as harsh to her mother. I could be wrong.

I agree completely with everything you said. I really don't see their relationship as being what broke Jasnah, and I really don't see it as being that bad of a relationship to begin with. It just seems like they're different kinds of people who don't do well around each other because they have different needs, but I really don't think that would be enough to break Jasnah. If it is then either Jasnah is a much weaker character than she appears (not likely) or the degree to which you need to be broken to form a Nahel bond is nowhere near as severe as it seems.

[Oudeis]

I actually do think people are overestimating how "broken" you have to be. We have Kaladin and Shallan who are... I mean, just SHATTERED, but that doesn't mean it takes something that big. Remember that Shallan was already broken enough to be a Surgebinder before all the REALLY awful stuff we know about. And Renarin is apparently 'broken'. His life has been very difficult, but not only do we not know of any specific trauma in his past, he doesn't generally act like someone barely surviving moment to moment. Of course, we know almost nothing about his past, and Shallan shows someone barely surviving can do a good job of faking real life. So I could be wrong.

 

I personally see the trauma of losing your mother, especially young, as plenty to break you. It doesn't have to be "I am no longer the person I once was, my entire life has changed," it can just be something that makes you really, impossibly sad.

 

Mistborn (almost posted this without mentioning what this was a spoiler of...)

 

There's a WoB that Snapping on Scadrial, which is presumably a related if not the exact same thing, could happen from moments of extreme, utter joy. We also know that the more "buried" your power is, the harder it is to Snap; an epigraph in Hero of Ages speaks of how in Alendi's day, beatings would never have worked, the Mists had to Snap people. And we know Scadrial is a very low-magic world. In a place like Roshar, bathed in enormous amounts of Stormlight regularly, with spren all over the place, I would expect the power to be less "buried", that spren can bond people much less broken that it takes to Snap on Scadrial. But that's just my guess; there are many reasons to suspect I'm wrong.

[WeiryWriter]

On the Jasnah and marriage thing (putting this in a spoiler tag since it's slightly off-topic):
 

While I don't know if Jasnah is 100% unwilling to get married, the impression I get from her conversation with Shallan about the causal definitely makes it feel like she is uncomfortable with it:
 

Jasnah took a deep breath. She seemed reluctant to explain. "I have taken the initial steps in arranging for you to be betrothed to one of my cousins, son of my uncle Dalinar Kholin. The boy's name is Adolin. He is handsome and well-acquainted with amiable discourse."
 
"Betrothed?" Shallan said. "You've promised him my hand?"
 
"I have started the process," Jasnah said, speaking with uncharacteristic anxiety. "Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart--as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known. He is considered Alethkar's most eligible son, and my mother has long wanted him wed."
 
"Betrothed," Shallan repeated.
 
"Yes. Is that distressing?"
 
"It's wonderful!" Shallan exclaimed, grabbing Jasnah's arm more tightly. "So easy. If I'm married to someone so powerful . . . Storms! Nobody would dare touch us in Jah Keved. It would solve many of our problems. Brightness Jasnah, you're a genius!"
 
Jasnah relaxed visibly. "Yes, well, it did seem a workable solution. I had wondered, however, if you'd be offended."
 
"Why on the winds would I be offended?"
 
"Because of the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage," Jasnah said. "And if not that, because the offer was made without consulting you. I had to see if the possibility was even open first. It has proceeded further than I'd expected, as my mother has seized on the idea. Navani has . . . a tendency toward the overwhelming."
 
Shallan had trouble imagining anyone overwhelming Jasnah. "Stormfather! You're worried I'd be offended? Brightness, I spent my entire life locked in my father's manor--I grew up assuming he'd pick my husband."
 
"But you're free of your father now."
 
"Yes, and I was so perfectly wise in my own pursuit of relationships," Shallan said. "The first man I chose was not only an ardent, but secretly an assassin."
 
"It doesn't bother you at all?" Jasnah said. "The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?"
 
"It's not like I'm being sold into slavery," Sallan said with a laugh.
 
"No. I suppose not." Jasnah shook herself, her poise returning.

[Oudeis]

You're right, I may have downplayed what Jasnah thinks of marriage. Still, even all that strikes me as not quite "it would never happen." However anxious the idea of marriage makes her, it's still the first idea she came up with to solve Shallan's problems.

[02ranger]

That line about being "beholden to another, particularly a man" is interesting. I hope we get some answers about her in this next book.

[maxal]

About Jasnah and her mother...

 

Perhaps it is because I am a woman which makes me able to relate more, but I have not seen any indications Navani and Jasnah relationship was anything but... normal.  It is said Jasnah grew cold towards her mother while being in her teenage years. This happens. Teenagers are often weighting in their own set of beliefs to their parents and can, at times, find their old ones lacking. 

 

For my part, I make a strong correlation between Jasnah attitude towards Navani and her attitude towards wedding.

 

"Because of the restriction of freedom implicit in a marriage," Jasnah said. 

 

For me, this quote tells it all: Jasnah does not want to compromise her freedom by marrying. Why would she feel this way? My guess has always been because she saw ended up thinking her mother lost her freedom. She would have started to notice these things as a teenager, she would have seen how her smart, intelligent, gifted for research mother has been forced to content herself with being the queen. Navani's POV in WoR indicates the Ardent engineers do not truly consider her one of their own, but suffer her due to her large donations. All in all, despite having shown the potential for a brilliant career, it is obvious Navani did not fulfill these promises.

 

Why?

 

To young Jasnah it would seem marriage was the culprit.

 

"It doesn't bother you at all?" Jasnah said. "The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?"

 

Why would Jasnah think it distressing to be beholden to a man? Again, we have had inklings Navani and Galivar's wedding was not a happy one. Jasnah may have loved her father, but she may have thought he was demanding. There is no evidence of such thing besides Navani stating Galivar was not the man Dalinar thought him to be.

 

All in all, I do think clues indicate Jasnah does not consider marriage as a possibility. She considers marrying would be sacrificing her freedom, her research and she clearly does not seem to think highly of men.

 

I also do not think Jasnah was "broken" during her teenage years... she bonded Ivory in her adulthood. She was 26-27 years old in the 

prologue when she saw Amaram... Surely he was not the first "match" her father tried to make. Alethi marry young, before their twenties. Adolin is an oddity to not be married yet, so Jasnah, well into her mid-twenties and being single, would be a desperate case. Anyhow, I get the vibe her "hardship" is one she met in adulthood as opposed to her teenage years. Simply because we have seen many teenage being chosen does not mean sprens only chose those.

 

I also support the theory the level of "brokenness" probably does not need to be "Kaladin's level" to be considered worthy of a Nahel bond. Renarin sure does not look as if he went to the same hardships: Kaladin was starved, beaten, sold into slavery, saw his men and brother died in front of his eyes, saw his family being persecuted... Renarin has a low self-esteem linked to his inability to train as a soldier... Sad, but quite frankly not the same. 

[Oudeis]

Navani specifically comments at one point that she did not have the potential for a brilliant career, which was one reason she never pursued it. Better to be the benefactor allowed to meddle, everyone impressed that she knows more than most Nobles, no one expecting her to actually be as smart as the real artefabrians. I have quite the ego, and I have to say there have been times I've felt her same trepidation. There have been times I've stood on the precipice, knowing I could jump into the "big pond" and find out if I'm really a big fish... and being terrified of learning that while ordinary people consider me a genius, legitimate geniuses might just find me ordinary.

[maxal]

Navani specifically comments at one point that she did not have the potential for a brilliant career, which was one reason she never pursued it. Better to be the benefactor allowed to meddle, everyone impressed that she knows more than most Nobles, no one expecting her to actually be as smart as the real artefabrians. I have quite the ego, and I have to say there have been times I've felt her same trepidation. There have been times I've stood on the precipice, knowing I could jump into the "big pond" and find out if I'm really a big fish... and being terrified of learning that while ordinary people consider me a genius, legitimate geniuses might just find me ordinary.

 

I do not recall this particular statement. Are you able to provide the quote or the chapter it was in? I may need to revise my assessment as I have always thought Navani had an unused potential for scholarship.

 

There is always someone smarter than us, but the question is was Navani smart enough? She sure seem to think highly of herself.

[Seloun]

I do not recall this particular statement. Are you able to provide the quote or the chapter it was in? I may need to revise my assessment as I have always thought Navani had an unused potential for scholarship.

 

There is always someone smarter than us, but the question is was Navani smart enough? She sure seem to think highly of herself.

 

“It’s all very technical and theoretical right now,” Navani said, smiling. “But just wait. When you see the things the ardents are imagining—”

 

“Not you?” Adolin asked.

 

“I’m their patron, dear,” Navani said, patting him on the arm. “I don’t have time to make all of the diagrams and figures, even were I up to the task.” She looked down at the gathered ardents and women scientists who were inspecting the floor of the parapet platform. “They suffer me.”

 

“Surely it’s more than that.”

Perhaps in another life it could have been. She was sure some of them saw her as a colleague. Many, however, just saw her as the woman who sponsored them so she’d have new fabrials to show off at parties. Perhaps she was just that. A lighteyed lady of rank had to have some hobbies, didn’t she?

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 417). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Navani does seem to be selling herself somewhat short, but her internal monologue seems pretty self-deprecating regarding her scholarship. I view her as someone who's pretty talented, but not dedicated enough to be a researcher (there's some implication that she spent most of her youth in politics).