Possible Origin of Shardplate? (Spoilers WoR)

[02ranger]

OK, so I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but I've got a sort of combination theory on the origin of Shardplate that I want to throw out there. I say combination cause its part my idea, and part of it comes from a thread I read on the SA subreddit.

 

The reddit guy mentioned that he believed the scene with the windspren circling Kaladin during his fight with Szeth at the end of WoR was a sort of proto-Plate. His theory is that each order has their normal spren, like Honor-spren for Windrunners, and then a sort of secondary spren that can be called on to form Shardplate. In the case of Windrunners this would be windspren. I'm thinking that, once Kaladin reaches a certain level, Syl will be able to call windspren together to form Plate for Kaladin, and she will be the link that facilitates control of the Plate for Kaladin. This would explain how the Plate could be dismissed in Dalinar's flashback, cause it's made of living spren and being controlled by a living "major" spren. The problem with spren-Plate that was mentioned on reddit is that Kaladin held that helmet and didn't hear screaming from the dead spren that form it, meaning (apparently) that Shardplate can't be made of spren. But what if the spren that make up the Plate that's still around are actually still alive, but locked into their Shardplate form because their control "major" spren died when the oaths were broken. This would explain a few things about Shardplate, such as how it can change shape to fit different people, how it can regrow from even small pieces, and why you can't take two pieces of the same Shardplate and regrow two separate suits. It also explains why certain functions of the Plate are gone now, because that controlling party is gone, meaning all the spren-Plate knows to do is the "standard" functions. If Shardplate is indeed formed from lower spren, there's no reason to believe breaking the oaths would cause them to die and lock into Shardplate form, unless the death of the "major" spren caused them to be unable to change back to themselves. 

 

So, anybody agree with me or have anything to add?

 

Edit: Changed "high" spren to "major" spren to avoid confusion with actual highspren. Thanks ansalem!

Edited August 29, 2015 by 02ranger

[Jondesu]

I know I've proposed that theory on Reddit myself, so I wonder if that was my post you saw!  I don't think that windspren are actually "alive" in the same sense that an honorspren is, so I don't think they would scream if dead as Shardplate.  The theory definitely has merit, but if they're still alive, it doesn't make much sense (to me) that they wouldn't then revert back to their native forms rather than be locked as Plate.

 

jW

[02ranger]

I know I've proposed that theory on Reddit myself, so I wonder if that was my post you saw!  I don't think that windspren are actually "alive" in the same sense that an honorspren is, so I don't think they would scream if dead as Shardplate.  The theory definitely has merit, but if they're still alive, it doesn't make much sense (to me) that they wouldn't then revert back to their native forms rather than be locked as Plate.

 

jW

I agree they're not alive in the same sense, but I know the theory I read said the problem with the theory is that the helmet didn't cause Kaladin to hear screaming so it "can't" be made of spren, and that's really the biggest reason for mentioning whether they're alive or not in my post. What I was thinking is that when they become Shardplate they come under the control of the Honorspren (using Windrunners in this post for my example) so that if the Radiant needs the Plate to do something he doesn't talk to a bunch of trickster spren with very little ability to think or interact, but instead talks to his Honorspren, with whom he'll already have a good working relationship. That Honorspren then "translates" (for lack of a better term) the command for the winspren, like making the helmet disappear when not needed. During this time, because the windspren have come under the control of the Honorspren (willingly or not) they are incapable of doing what they want to, but rather do what the Honorspren commands which is to be Shardplate. If that Honorspren then dies because of broken oaths while the windspren are in Plateform they would be incapable of changing back to their normal form because the controlling entity is no longer able to allow them to change. Meaning the windspren never died, but instead are stuck in their Plateform.

 

BTW, my name on reddit is 02ranger as well. Check your thread and see if I replied, it very well might be yours I saw.

 

Edit: Went crazy with the commas.......

Edited August 28, 2015 by 02ranger

[FidesFortuna]

We know that the nahel bond was produced by the spren to replicate what the heralds did.

The Heralds blades are called "Honor Blades" indicating that they were given by Honor.

Perhaps the shard plate is of Cultivation? The reason the spren plate doesn't ring true is that the armor needs to be Infused with stormlight to regrow and function. I haven't seen any spren that feed off of stormlight or have much interaction with it.

Meaning why would spren plate need stormlight as shardblades need no stormlight.

Thoughts??

Edited August 28, 2015 by FidesFortuna

[FidesFortuna]

Also, one of the keys to unlocking this resides in when Adolin is going on about making sure that his armorers fed his suit stormlight so that the Parshendi couldn't grow a suit out of his vambrace.

Sanderson loves to sprinkle clues throughout his books im sure this means something

[Jondesu]

We know that the nahel bond was produced by the spren to replicate what the heralds did.

The Heralds blades are called "Honor Blades" indicating that they were given by Honor.

Perhaps the shard plate is of Cultivation? The reason the spren plate doesn't ring true is that the armor needs to be Infused with stormlight to regrow and function. I haven't seen any spren that feed off of stormlight or have much interaction with it.

Meaning why would spren plate need stormlight as shardblades need no stormlight.

Thoughts??

That does indeed make a lot of sense!  I don't know that that discounts the theory of them being spren, just maybe that they're Cultivation's spren and operate differently from Honor's that we've seen.  The windspren were definitely busy in the midst of the high storm, indicating maybe they were at least enjoying all of the Stormlight (though perhaps also just the amount of wind, of course).

 

jW

[FidesFortuna]

I'm driving btw so I'm not as descriptive as I would be otherwise.

Doesn't at all! The only thing that throws me off about it really is the need for it to be infused with stormlight.

I want to read the Dalinar Chapter where he is interacting with the radiants and the female one or maybe the windrunner makes their helmet appear instantly. He's left a bread crumb trail for us that beautiful bastard!!! I read your booookss!!

[Humpty]

Your on the right track I think the same thing so have an upvote from me. Great minds and all.....

[02ranger]

I'm on my first reread right now, so I may have missed some things, but I've always had trouble keeping the Heralds and KR separate. Did the Hearlds use Shardplate? I don't remember seeing it mentioned in the Hearld scene in WoK.

As for the stormlight thing, I'm not really sure how to explain that. Possibly a function of the lack of a "high" spren to control the lesser spren? The biggest thing I think that supports the idea of the Shardplate being made from spren is the fact that a Shardblade can cut anything except Shardplate. Seems like an odd connection if they aren't made from the same thing. Also the helmet being dismissed in the flashback lends itself to the idea of being made from spren, since the Shardblades can be dismissed the same way. There are too many similarities between the two for them not to be made from similar sources, although my theory on the control aspect could be off.

I'm gonna read with an eye towards any spren that seem to be overly excited around stormlight. Maybe I'll find something to support the theory........

Edit: What if Stormlight is the fuel for the lesser spren to be able to transform and regenerate? There is obviously some sort of connection between Stormlight and spren since the nahel bond grants the ability to absorb and use Stormlight.

Edited August 28, 2015 by 02ranger

[FidesFortuna]

Some definite good points.

Keep in mind anything holding investiture can repel a shardblade. There is a WoB somewhere that said an awakened shield or cloth would stop a shard blade. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that only spren can repel spren. But the instantaneous arrival of the helmet definitely supports the this theory.

[Ansalem]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Shardplate is made of highly condensed stormlight. We already know that the more oaths are spoken the more efficiently a Radiant is able to use stormlight. I believe that once they reach the last oath they will have reached an efficiency high enough that they lose no stormlight at all passively and they can form it around themselves into a physical barrier.

 

That's why it doesn't scream, as it isn't a dead spren, and that's why it feeds off stormlight and reforms when it does. The reason for the disappearing helmets in Dalinar's vision is because the Radiant is sucking the plate back in as stormlight the way Shallan reclaims her illusions' stormlight. The reason I think it didn't just disappear at the Recreance is because severing the bond removed their ability to reclaim the plate as stormlight and so it sort of stuck in that form.

 

The major and minor spren theory is interesting but I think this one makes more sense given what we know.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I have an addition to make. I think it could it be possible that the other spren were either Soulcast/Bondsmithed/fabrialised or some combination of the 3 (+ more if there are) into Shardplate. Going from what little we know of Oathgates in WoR, Shardblades/Sprenblades couldn't cut through the Oathgate slot and someone theorised that they could be made of the same material as Spren/Shardblades, so that got me thinking; what if they were the same thing but in a different form? 

 

We know Soulcasting is used to transmute/transform matter from one form to another (typically something of the same matter state and/or chemical group)

 

We can only speculate about Bondsmith powers (primarily, my thinking is the formation/cohesion of spiritual/cognitve connections made manifest in the physical i.e. changing the forms of Windspren gathered around Kaladin into S-plate through solidification/modification of their spiritual/cognitive bonds with the help of a Elsecaller/Lightweaver + however Surge fabrials are made)

[Ardjet]

Just throwing out an idea that keeps coming back to me. No real basis in fact or research. But going off the fact that the bodies of Preservation and Ruin both have a Physical aspect, what if Shardplate is the physical body of Honor? After all, no one knows how to replicate it. The closest people have come is half-shards. It would also explain why it regrows when given Stormlight. Anyway, just a thought. Stirring the pot and what-not.

[02ranger]

Some definite good points.

Keep in mind anything holding investiture can repel a shardblade. There is a WoB somewhere that said an awakened shield or cloth would stop a shard blade. So, it doesn't necessarily follow that only spren can repel spren. But the instantaneous arrival of the helmet definitely supports the this theory.

 

I didn't know that about investiture. I'm still relatively new to the Cosmere and still learning. I'll have to read up more on that.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Shardplate is made of highly condensed stormlight. We already know that the more oaths are spoken the more efficiently a Radiant is able to use stormlight. I believe that once they reach the last oath they will have reached an efficiency high enough that they lose no stormlight at all passively and they can form it around themselves into a physical barrier.

 

That's why it doesn't scream, as it isn't a dead spren, and that's why it feeds off stormlight and reforms when it does. The reason for the disappearing helmets in Dalinar's vision is because the Radiant is sucking the plate back in as stormlight the way Shallan reclaims her illusions' stormlight. The reason I think it didn't just disappear at the Recreance is because severing the bond removed their ability to reclaim the plate as stormlight and so it sort of stuck in that form.

 

The major and minor spren theory is interesting but I think this one makes more sense given what we know.

I actually really like this theory. I'm now torn between my idea and this idea. I'm actually starting to lean more towards the stormlight theory cause it fits better with what we know so far. My spren idea would require Brandon to reveal some things we haven't seen yet, but stormlight almost feels like a natural progression from the story as it is now.

[Ansalem]

 I actually really like this theory. I'm now torn between my idea and this idea. I'm actually starting to lean more towards the stormlight theory cause it fits better with what we know so far. My spren idea would require Brandon to reveal some things we haven't seen yet, but stormlight almost feels like a natural progression from the story as it is now.

 

Yeah I like both theories. They both could fit. On the one hand the condensed stormlight theory would be a more obvious progression and therefore easy to explain to readers without needing to go into a lot of extra detail for just that one aspect. On the other hand the spren theory would offer a good opportunity for deeper world building and exploration into the nature of spren. Though I suspect that will be covered anyway in Jasnah and Shallan's chapters in future books as they explore Shadesmar.

 

I would be pretty happy with either one but I think condensed stormlight is more likely. I'll be happy to be proven wrong though. 

[FidesFortuna]

Alright! After some research in the coppermind there are two things that show a relationship between Spren and stormlight.

Soulcasting requires you to bribe the spren with stormlight.

No spren in shinovar. Shinovar no hghstorms no stormlight

[02ranger]

Alright! After some research in the coppermind there are two things that show a relationship between Spren and stormlight.

Soulcasting requires you to bribe the spren with stormlight.

No spren in shinovar. Shinovar no hghstorms no stormlight

That's interesting. I'm gonna watch for other spren/stormlight connections on this reread. I wonder if it could be a combination of the two things. Maybe the stormlight is actually how you control the spren who make up the Shardplate rather than needing the "high" spren to facilitate. The stormlight would be a sort of bribe. Something I didn't think about earlier is the fact that the radiants lost their ability to manipulate stormlight when they broke their oaths. I kept trying to come up with a reason for the Shardplate to still be around if it's made of spren, and the death of the bonded spren was a convenient reason, but what if the real reason the Plate is still around is that when the radiant broke their oaths they were incapable of sucking the stormlight back in and freeing the spren? I think somebody else mentioned this part in this thread, but I couldn't find the sentence I was looking for.........

 

The reason I'm kinda sticking to the idea of Shardplate being made of spren in some way is that we haven't really seen any evidence that stormlight can be anything besides fuel, but we have seen evidence that spren can change into a ton of different solid forms, and the idea of Shardplate being able to block Shardblades makes me think they have to be connected on a deeper level, although maybe it's just the investiture thing that FidesFortuna mentioned.

[FidesFortuna]

If shardplate was concentrated stormlight I wouldn't see it cracking and leaking stormlight. I would see it desolving, melting or something.

I'm leaning towards it being a combination of factors.

-Bondsmith/lightweaver/elsecaller infused forged armor ala paradox spren

-infused with massive amounts of stormlight ala ansalem

-binds to nahel spren at certain level of oaths sworn ala ranger

[02ranger]

If shardplate was concentrated stormlight I wouldn't see it cracking and leaking stormlight. I would see it desolving, melting or something.

I'm leaning towards it being a combination of factors.

-Bondsmith/lightweaver/elsecaller infused forged armor ala paradox spren

-infused with massive amounts of stormlight ala ansalem

-binds to nahel spren at certain level of oaths sworn ala ranger

IDK, I think it could conceivably crack and leak if you look at it like the cracks are where the hardened portion has weakened, and the non-hardened stormlight used to fuel it isn't regenerating quickly enough. A problem with it being just concentrated stormlight that just came to me is the regrowth part. Why would stormlight be able to naturally repair itself into armor? Wouldn't it need something to direct the repair and regrowth?

 

I just reread the first of Dalinar's flashback chapters in WoK yesterday, and I feel like there's some important information there on the Shardplate. Specifically the glyphs that show up on the male shardbearer's Plate while he's fighting, but they disappear after the fight all except for the main glyph of the KR. It reminds me of when Kaladin is fighting Moash in WoR and Syl comes back to him and he sucks in a huge amount of stormlight and all of a sudden theres a glyph behind him on the ground. Those glyphs feel like clues somehow.........

 

I could see the origin of Shardplate going a lot of different ways, but the one I really don't see is the Plate being made of the same bonded spren as the Blades. Is that what you meant by your last point?

[FidesFortuna]

No its not made of spren but bonded to the spren. 

 

All current shard plate needs to be painted

Anyone can wear it 

It regrows meaning perhaps it was engineered to do that

Feeds off of Stormlight

Doesn't scream when heald by a Radiant

 

Old plate glowed of its own accord, had glyphs and different colors indicative of the Ward that Radiant belonged too so there is a relationship between the spren and plate. 

Could be summoned from Cognitive plane if thats what happened in the Dalinar flashback

 

All of our possible theories by themselves leave a few gaps that need to be explained. Combined they seem to make more sense. 

[02ranger]

No its not made of spren but bonded to the spren. 

 

All current shard plate needs to be painted

Anyone can wear it 

It regrows meaning perhaps it was engineered to do that

Feeds off of Stormlight

Doesn't scream when heald by a Radiant

 

Old plate glowed of its own accord, had glyphs and different colors indicative of the Ward that Radiant belonged too so there is a relationship between the spren and plate. 

Could be summoned from Cognitive plane if thats what happened in the Dalinar flashback

 

All of our possible theories by themselves leave a few gaps that need to be explained. Combined they seem to make more sense. 

Bonded to which spren? That's the part that's confusing me on your post. Do you mean the Shardplate is somehow bonded to the spren that is bonded to the radiant? Like if Kaladin is able to form Plate somewhere down the line, are you saying it will be bonded to Syl somehow or are you saying it's bonded to windspren somehow?

 

Other than that, I think either of the two main theories in this thread cover all your points pretty well. Stormlight or minor spren.

 

Edit: Actually I just thought of something. Dalinar's Shardplate is unpainted and unornamented, and is described as being a slate-grey color. I take that as a point in favor of it being made, at least partially, out of spren since the Blades are all that color as well (I think). Although it does make you wonder if the Plate we see in Dalinar's flashbacks was painted or if they created it as a specific color and maybe Dalinar just happens to have Plate that is the same color as the Blades? I'm starting to think we just don't have enough information yet......

Edited August 29, 2015 by 02ranger

[FidesFortuna]

Ok so I reread the chapters where Dalinar has visions except the one where they are chasing a thunderclast in WoR

The glow emitted from the Armor would indicate which order the Radiant was a part of

Blue Windrunners

Amber Stonewards, first complete vision the stoneward uses a fabrial for regrowth

Red Dustrbringers, this is the one from Words of Radiance that I need to find and re-read

Nearly everthing on Roshar is related to spren. Skyeels, Ryshadium(sp?), Chasmfiends and great shells all have symbiotic relationships with spren. The Nahel bond is similar.

What I'm proposing is that by some means similiar to a fabrial they were able to create an armor that a spren could bond to, as people now do to dead spren blades, and via that bond they would have the same relationship to the armor.

So my theory proposes the armor is built by an unknown method via the bondsmiths and other radiants, powered by stormlight and actualized by bonding with a nahel spren, be that cryptic, honor etc etc, that like the jewels in the pommels of the dead spren blades allows it to be summoned from the cognitive realm.

Does that make any sense?? Hahahaha

Edit: The Knight in the redplate seemed to have the surge of friction. In both visions when the radiant would be using a surge the plate would begin to glow all over rather then just at the joints as in the feverstone keep vision. This tells us there is a definite link between the type of Nahel spren and shardplate

Edited August 29, 2015 by FidesFortuna

[02ranger]

Ok so I reread the chapters where Dalinar has visions except the one where they are chasing a thunderclast in WoR

 

The glow emitted from the Armor would indicate which order the Radiant was a part of

 

Blue Windrunners

Amber Stonewards, first complete vision the stoneward uses a fabrial for regrowth

Red Dustrbringers, this is the one from Words of Radiance that I need to find and re-read

 

Nearly everthing on Roshar is related to spren. Skyeels, Ryshadium(sp?), Chasmfiends and great shells all have symbiotic relationships with spren. The Nahel bond is similar. 

 

What I'm proposing is that by some means similiar to a fabrial they were able to create an armor that a spren could bond to, as people now do to dead spren blades, and via that bond they would have the same relationship to the armor. 

 

So my theory proposes the armor is built by an unknown method via the bondsmiths and other radiants, powered by stormlight and actualized by bonding with a nahel spren, be that cryptic, honor etc etc, that like the jewels in the pommels of the dead spren blades allows it to be summoned from the cognitive realm.

 

Does that make any sense?? Hahahaha 

Yeah, I get it now. That's an interesting theory. I'll have to let it marinate a while.

 

How did they make the half-shards in Jah Keved (I think that's where they were)? Did we ever get any information or decent descriptions on them? I know we saw them in a Szeth chapter but I don't have my book handy to check. That may give some clues about the construction of the original Shardplate.

[Grey Knight]

I personally like both theories, but I do have something to add to the minor spren one.

 

When Kaladin is testing his Full Lashing abilities with Sigzil, he notices tiny, purple spren. These are gravityspren. Now, since Shardplate is made of hundreds of interlocking plates, it might make sense that each is a gravityspren.

 

Hear me out. If Syl, represents the Adhesion Surge of the Windrunners, and the other Surge is Gravitation...

 

Pick apart this theory. I'm rushed, so it's not the best.

[02ranger]

I personally like both theories, but I do have something to add to the minor spren one.

 

When Kaladin is testing his Full Lashing abilities with Sigzil, he notices tiny, purple spren. These are gravityspren. Now, since Shardplate is made of hundreds of interlocking plates, it might make sense that each is a gravityspren.

 

Hear me out. If Syl, represents the Adhesion Surge of the Windrunners, and the other Surge is Gravitation...

 

Pick apart this theory. I'm rushed, so it's not the best.

Sounds good to me. That's actually kinda what I read in the reddit thread that made me piece it all together in the first place. The only difference was that guy assumed each order had their highspren and lesser spren. Windrunners would be honorspren and windspren. Lightweavers had liespren and creationspren. Then whatever Wyndle is and lifespren. Basically each one would have their lesser spren that corresponds in some way to their order that they could use to create the Shardplate. In that case maybe gravityspren would work for Bondsmiths?

 

Edit: Forgot the name of the lightweavers and also that cryptics and liespren are the same thing........

Edited August 29, 2015 by 02ranger