The Stones of Roshar

[nightwatcher he/him]

With the Stormlight Archive, we often make the mistake of thinking the Highstorms are the most influential aspect of Rosharian life. Widows all face Leward, massive windbreaks created on the Stormward side of any community. The life has evolved to resist the powerful winds of the endless, scouring storms, the very ecosystems built around surviving the desolate land.

 

And yet, while we give our attention to the temporary devastation of Highstorms, many of us ignore their more permanent affects. The most significant of these is so commonplace among the Rosharans, it's easy to forget how remarkable it is.

 

Crem. It's everywhere. The world literally drowns in it. The entirety of Roshar is covered in thin layers of the stuff by the highstorms, which eventually builds into thick layers of strata. It covers the world like clay, hardening as it dries into solid stone. It covers corpses left in the sun, turning them into clay statues melting into the rock.

 

But what is it, and where does it come from?

 

It seems to have similar properties to clay. However, It appears to be harder when it dries, and it's runny enough to splash in directly after a storm. It could, of course, be the same chemical composition, but I doubt it.

 

And where does it come from? It falls with the highstorms, but not the weeping. This means it doesn't form in the sky, and fall to earth in the rains. It could be created by the highstorms themselves, but then it would cover ALL of Roshar, rather than leaving Shinovar untouched. It seems to pick it up overseas, then dump it on Roshar, running out as it moves. So where does it come from? The Ocean? But where would it get the sediment from straight water? Maybe another continent, across the waves?

 

Can anybody tell me? its driving me nuts.

[Jondesu he/him]

I always assumed it was either picked up at the Origin, along with Stormlight, or else from the oceans.  Keep in mind that it could still come from the sky and not affect Shinovar, since the high storms mostly peter out completely by the time they hit Shinovar, and they don't get much more than a gentle rainstorm, apparently.

 

It doesn't appear to be exactly like clay, as you've noticed, but it's a close enough analog for us to understand, and just remember that it's on a very alien world compared to ours.

 

jW

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I think i remember reading a WoB that the continent of Roshar wasn't originally there and exists due to the Highstorms depositing crem over long periods (can't remember if this is correct/exact). If that is true, I think the Origin of Highstorms (the one in the East) is what perhaps churns up the crem maybe. There's a few questions about crem that i would like to ask Brandon

[teknopathetic he/him]

The Shin believe that all stones are unholy and should not be tred upon. Well, the stones uni Uratheru are not unholy for some reason (Szeth mentions this)

[DreamEternal]

The Shin believe that all stones are unholy and should not be tred upon. Well, the stones uni Uratheru are not unholy for some reason (Szeth mentions this)

Actualy, all stones are too holy to tread upon(altought with the shin that doens't make much difference) except those in Urithiru, wich are considered unhallowed(also, unhallowed stones is an awesome book title, I imagine what kind of in universe book it is) for some cultural reason.

Edited August 22, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Kaladin al'Thor]

Speaking of the Shin and highstorms. I'm assuming the large figure seen in the highstorm is the storm father. If by the time they hit Shinovar they are a slight drizzle, do you think you could clearly see him?

[Ansalem]

Speaking of the Shin and highstorms. I'm assuming the large figure seen in the highstorm is the storm father. If by the time they hit Shinovar they are a slight drizzle, do you think you could clearly see him?

 

I was always under the impression that you only see him if he wants you to but I'm not sure. But those times people see him it seems time stands still for them because they can stand freely inside the storm and then when he leaves the storm comes back in full force again. I could just be misinterpreting it though.

[DreamEternal]

I was always under the impression that you only see him if he wants you to but I'm not sure. But those times people see him it seems time stands still for them because they can stand freely inside the storm and then when he leaves the storm comes back in full force again. I could just be misinterpreting it though.

I was under the impression that his mind existed somewhere between the cognitive and physical, bound to the center of the highstorm, wich I suspect is also where lost ambient stormlight in condensed, and forms some sort of conection or common point between realms, wich is what allows Listeners to change forms (cognitive/spiritual change causing physical change).

This realmatic joint may also allow things like Renarin's visions, since a recent WoB said that someone with strong enough allomantic atium(of levels only possible with hemalurgy) would be able to look into the cognitive realm, suggesting future sight is attained by borrowing the perceptions and minds of nearby cognitive aspects and using them to calculate the most likely outcome.

[Unodus he/him]

Consider this- all highstorms go from east to west, right? That means all highstorms go over the unclaimed hills before the rest of Roshar.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/3/34/Map_roshar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130609204511

If we assume the soil there contains traces of clay (or something similar), we could conclude that because those hills take the brunt of the highstorm as it crashes along the coast- the soil and sand there is picked up and carried with the storm and blown across the rest of the continent. The process churns the carried soil within the storm like whipping cream- leaving behind the composition of crem, which dissolves into the water and falls with the rain. 

 

That's why there isn't any crem in Shinovar, since it is the furthest away from the hills.

 

If this is true, perhaps that is why highstorm rain is so fertile (besides being divine, etc)- because the water carries soil from the unclaimed hills, which act as fertilizer :V 

 

Anything wrong with that possibility?

Edited August 22, 2015 by Unodus

[Jondesu he/him]

Consider this- all highstorms go from east to west, right? That means all highstorms go over the unclaimed hills before the rest of Roshar.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/3/34/Map_roshar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130609204511

If we assume the soil there contains traces of clay (or something similar), we could conclude that because those hills take the brunt of the highstorm as it crashes along the coast- the soil and sand there is picked up and carried with the storm and blown across the rest of the continent. The process churns the carried soil within the storm like whipping cream- leaving behind the composition of crem, which dissolves into the water and falls with the rain. 

 

That's why there isn't any crem in Shinovar, since it is the furthest away from the hills.

 

If this is true, perhaps that is why highstorm rain is so fertile (besides being divine, etc)- because the water carries soil from the unclaimed hills, which act as fertilizer :V 

 

Anything wrong with that possibility?

The biggest problem with that is that if that's the case, those unclaimed hills would have been long gone due to erosion by now.  I think it's safe to say they're getting crem deposited on them as well, rather than being eroded to that degree by every highstorm.

 

jW

[Unodus he/him]

The mountains themselves are granite (hence the granite kingdom), which is why they don't erode. Being next to the coast, though- waves created by the storm would wash up huge amounts of sand at a constant rate along the coast- which would gradually be blown across the mountains by the highstorm. Any loose sand left on the mountain is simply blown away at the next highstorm, which filters out any other heavier composites of the sand leaving only the clay-like crem behind.

Another point that supports this is the weeping. No highstorm to push the sand from the coast, no crem.

Does that clear things up?

 

(I am curious as to why you think its safe to assume crem is deposited there though, am I missing something?)

Edited August 22, 2015 by Unodus

[Jondesu he/him]

I would think even granite would be eroded in that process, especially if you include the constant washing and mixing up of sand or similar material in the process like you described.  I was simply assuming crem drops there too because I was assuming they weren't getting destroyed to make the crem, though there may be some truth to your theory instead.  I still suspect it's more likely the crem comes from the origin or the oceans instead of from the Unclaimed Hills (especially since they apparently were once not unclaimed, if I remember correctly).

 

jW

[DreamEternal]

I would think even granite would be eroded in that process, especially if you include the constant washing and mixing up of sand or similar material in the process like you described. I was simply assuming crem drops there too because I was assuming they weren't getting destroyed to make the crem, though there may be some truth to your theory instead. I still suspect it's more likely the crem comes from the origin or the oceans instead of from the Unclaimed Hills (especially since they apparently were once not unclaimed, if I remember correctly).

jW

I think Brandon said is that Roshar is slowly "moving" westward, due to the chaotic process of erosion and sedimentation of highstorms, so this points toward crem coming from the unclaimed hills, and they still exist because they were formed from sedimentation of crem coming from the previous hills further east that have been fully eroded.

Edited August 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis he/him]

Consider this- all highstorms go from east to west, right? That means all highstorms go over the unclaimed hills before the rest of Roshar.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/3/34/Map_roshar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130609204511

If we assume the soil there contains traces of clay (or something similar), we could conclude that because those hills take the brunt of the highstorm as it crashes along the coast- the soil and sand there is picked up and carried with the storm and blown across the rest of the continent. The process churns the carried soil within the storm like whipping cream- leaving behind the composition of crem, which dissolves into the water and falls with the rain. 

 

That's why there isn't any crem in Shinovar, since it is the furthest away from the hills.

 

If this is true, perhaps that is why highstorm rain is so fertile (besides being divine, etc)- because the water carries soil from the unclaimed hills, which act as fertilizer :V 

 

Anything wrong with that possibility?

 

I'm confused. You're saying the Highstorms get enough crem from the hills to cover the entire continent, but not enough to noticeably erode them. These seem mutually exclusive. I don't believe there's any overlap in the venn diagram you suggest.

 

Also, what makes the granite of the unclaimed hills so special? If it's so good for plants, why aren't the hills covered in plants? Something being "good for plants" doesn't just happen. What would make the unclaimed hills so fertile in the first place?

 

The Hills do not extend fully north and south. Why does Thaylenah get Crem, if there are no hills East of them? For that matter, the Shattered Plains get crem, and are directly south of the Hills, even somewhat east.

[The One Who Reads he/him]

The thing that is bugging me is how a world without tectonics has large granite batholiths. Roshar has weird geology.

 

But on the subject of crem at first I thought that crem was a suspended or dissolved sediment in highstorm water, as the flooding from the highstorm evaporates crem is deposited/precipitates out forming horizontal beds- the basics of all sedimentary geology.

 

But this theory (like Rosharian geology) doesn't hold water, cremstone appears to be impermeable and very widespread (I can find quotes to support this if anyone wants them) this combined with the huge output of Highstorms means you're going to have the spikiest storm hydrograph ever. No infiltration, no percolation and minimal if any interception by vegetation. Basically the storm throws down huge amounts of precipitation very rapidly into a region with no shown underground water storage (soil moisture or aquifers) leading to flash flooding similar I think to Earth's desert Wadis. Wadis are characterised by poorly sorted beds formed in high energy environments by a mixture of medium to large clasts with a loose matrix. The fine-grained, well cemented and uniform cremstone would (on Earth at least) probably indicate very low energy conditions, not likely in the violent highstorm or rapid post storm drainage.

 

I think it is worth noting however the other interesting feature of crem, despite intermittent short periods of relatively little deposition and not being terribly resistant until it has 'aged' cremstone has rapidly (by geological standards) formed thick layers of rock. Somehow the high storms erode the rock less than they add to it. Given how little crem is deposited per storm in a region and how powerful those storms are that suggests some impressive resistance.

 

Edit: "I would think even granite would be eroded in that process, especially if you include the constant washing and mixing up of sand or similar material in the process like you described" Just to throw my £0.02 in here while granite is pretty resistant stuff over time in the right conditions it will erode like any rock particularly along faults or joints. Granite at the surface is also not incredibly stable chemically as it was 'built' for conditions far below the ground, certain minerals will breakdown at the surface to form more chemically stable minerals with lower physical durability. Without an overburden to provide pressure the granite will also expand, malleability isn't one of granite's strengths however so you will see pressure release fracture creating joints for sub-aerial process (weathering and erosion) to exploit.

 

TL;DR Granite is pretty badchull but Highstorms are also badchull. The deciding factor in how long a granite outcrop would last would probably be how Roshar's atmospheric pressure and chemistry affected the granite.

Edited August 23, 2015 by The One Who Reads

[AerionBFII he/him]

Lets just pray for a Rosharan Geologist interlude in the next SA Novel...

[Ansalem]

Lets just pray for a Rosharan Geologist interlude in the next SA Novel...

 

That and an astronomer interlude would be awesome. Roshar's moons are freakishly weird as well. I wonder if any scholars are studying them. I know I would be.

 

Well, let's be honest, I would be 9th or 10th nahn at best.

[The One Who Reads he/him]

That and an astronomer interlude would be awesome. Roshar's moons are freakishly weird as well. I wonder if any scholars are studying them. I know I would be.

 

Well, let's be honest, I would be 9th or 10th nahn at best.

I've got the eyes but not the gender unless I want to either be am ardent or an illiterate geologist... or a heretic I suppose. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Wouldn't the majority of us be Shin?

[Alfa he/him]

I think that the majority of us would be blown away by the first highstorm or eaten by a chasmfiend or killed by a random warlord or (add some random deadly Rosharan stuff here) in the first weak in Roshar. Also I am still not fully convinced, if Shin have exactly "our" eyes, because Hoid and other worldhoppers are not mistaken for Shin.

Even if we survive and are accepted as Shin, I'm quite sure, that we will break the Shin rules in some way or another, and that would mean... something like the whole 17th shard to become truthless.

[Rockbud he/him]

This is a really unimaginative suggestion, but with all the abrasive forces acting on the debree inside highstorms, might crem just be pulverised rock that's picked up by the storms?

[Oudeis he/him]

Would not explain its hard-setting or nutritional properties. Rock dust in water would solidify to an extent as the water ran off/was evaporated, but not to the degree or in the specific way crem does.

[nightwatcher he/him]

So basically, all the points so far are:

 

1)  If crem is just random sediment broken down and carried by the storm, what could potentially explain its physical characteristics and nutritional properties?

 

2)  Given the intensity of highstorms, what properties of crem allow for Rosharian "Reverse Erosion," so too speak, to occur?

 

3)  Where are these eastern sedimentary deposits, large enough to cover the entire continent with just their outer layers, located? Assuming they exist, and there is not some alternate psuedo-realistic construction of Brandon's mind in their place.

 

4)  How do these sedimentary deposits replenish themselves, fighting the consistent erosion of highstorms?

 

Did I miss any?

Edited August 24, 2015 by nightwatcher

[Shadowspren he/him]

I've got the eyes, but not the hair... 

Anyway, back to the topic of crem. We're all sitting here wondering about where it's all coming from... What about all the sediment that got washed away from the shattered plains, effectively making them shattered. Although it is previously stated that the continent wasn't originally there, could it possibly be that all that missing sand/dirt stuff contributes to the origins of the crem?

 

Also, the Everstorm continues to circulate the planet right? This isn't the same as the Highstorms, is it? From teh events of WoR I assume that the Stormfather sends them periodically from the Origin, this explains why there is a lul during the weeping, because he doesn't send any.

Except for the fact that he sent on in WoR to try and kill everyone and stop things from happening. 

 

I recently saw someone mention a WoB that talks about how people and things can't hold stormlight indefinitely because it's natural course is to evaporate and return to the environment. And the fact that the Highstorm recharges all things stormlight, including when Kal is flying right next to it. 

 

Therefore, my question is, could the crem deposits be a residue of the stormlight? If there is a magical element to the storms, could it be as simple as it being a result of that magical element?

 

 

I was under the impression that his mind existed somewhere between the cognitive and physical, bound to the center of the highstorm, wich I suspect is also where lost ambient stormlight in condensed, and forms some sort of conection or common point between realms, wich is what allows Listeners to change forms (cognitive/spiritual change causing physical change).


This realmatic joint may also allow things like Renarin's visions, since a recent WoB said that someone with strong enough allomantic atium(of levels only possible with hemalurgy) would be able to look into the cognitive realm, suggesting future sight is attained by borrowing the perceptions and minds of nearby cognitive aspects and using them to calculate the most likely outcome.

Kal and Szeth flew right through the middle of the storm... which is why I don't think he is just there to be seen. When Dalinar has a vision where he sees Honor, he sees the Stormfather in the same vision. I think the Stormfather exists mostly in the Cognitive and Spiritual... Going back to the point that the storm recharges stormlight, could the storm itself be the Stormfather's existence in the Physical Realm? because just about every time someone sees him it is during a storm... except in Dalinar's vision. Stormfather doesn't send the storms, he is the storm and he stays in the Physical, slowly slipping back into the cognitive

[Unodus he/him]

I'm confused. You're saying the Highstorms get enough crem from the hills to cover the entire continent, but not enough to noticeably erode them. These seem mutually exclusive. I don't believe there's any overlap in the venn diagram you suggest.

 

Also, what makes the granite of the unclaimed hills so special? If it's so good for plants, why aren't the hills covered in plants? Something being "good for plants" doesn't just happen. What would make the unclaimed hills so fertile in the first place?

 

The Hills do not extend fully north and south. Why does Thaylenah get Crem, if there are no hills East of them? For that matter, the Shattered Plains get crem, and are directly south of the Hills, even somewhat east.

 

 

Ok, lots of possibilities here- I'll try counter them individually, point for point.

 

While the mountains are primarily granite, they are not entirely granite (otherwise, nothing would grow). Since the storm should wash away most of the soil, that is why I suggested that the storm must carry sand from the coast up the mountain side. The sand of which I speak are in themselves fertile, which allows plants to grow along the mountain- and it is that sand which is carried within the storm, which filters out any other heavier composites of the sand leaving only the clay-like crem to dissolve in the rain. The granite is not the source of the crem, the coast is- the mountain merely acts as a high vantage point which allows the crem to be carried to far inland continents.

 

In case you were unaware, the hill is abundant in life- contrary to what you suggest. I refer to Cobweed, a type of tree that is native to the Unclaimed Hills. The hills must be fertile to support these dense trees. I propose that the trees anchor themselves to the granite beneath the hard soil/sand, which is how they are able to survive the highstorm- then absorb the nutrients from the sand that is thrown up onto the mountain.

 

My concept revolves around the fact that the crem we know comes from the sand in the coast thrown into the storm. Therefore, anywhere due east of any coast will have sand flung from its shores- to settle in the form of crem. This differs for the unclaimed hills, though. The mountains at as a ramp that launches the crem to all inland continents behind the mountains. This means that the quantity and quality of crem must differ from region to region, if I am correct.