An Insight on Odium

[WeiryWriter]

There is part of Harmony invested in Scadrial since Ruin and Preservation were both invested in Scadrial and Harmony has clearly not withdrawn that investiture.  However, there is no indication that I have seen that Harmony has made an additional investiture since the joining of Ruin and Preservation.

Okay, this just isn't making sense to me.  The innate investiture scadrians have is referred to as being from Ruin and Preservation not Harmony.

 

IIRC, the change in the mist in the trilogy was not a corrucption by Ruin, but rather a default state for the mists to increase snapping.  Everyone that died went through the snapping process, but didn't survive.  Those that did survive had allomantic abilities.  Hence, most nobility were not affected by the changed mist because most of the allomancers among the noibility had already been discovered because of their beatings and other methods of intentional snapping.  I don't recall any evidence that Ruin corrupted the mist at all.

 Yes you are correct the mistsickness was put in place by Preservation, however that is not what I was referring to.  I was referring to the mists staying during the day, which was due to Ruin. (hmm... I'm not finding a quote for this so I might be wrong, but I do remember something about Ruin messing with the mists).

 

They are two different things.  But, obviously the shards and their constituent intents must necessarily have been a part of Adonalsium.  Otherwise, how could Adonalsium split thus?  The power of all the shard is the same power.  That power however is filtered through the governing intent of the shard, the intent and personality of the holder of the shard, and the spiritual, cognitive, and physical environment (i.e., the planet) where the power is used.  For Adonalsium, the filter is different since it comprises a full range of intents.  Point being, if at shattering Adonalsium could be unmingled along the lines it was, it likely could have been done so intentional.

 I disagree, I do not believe the intents, as we know them, existed before the Shattering happened.  The intents came about as a result of the Shattering.  Also Adonalsium was not unmingled, it was shattered. 

 

Since we don't know what the process of shattering/splintering is and we also don't know what the process of unmingling is, I think this is a very premature argument.  Which was part of my point in my response.  I think we should avoid rejecting ideas outright based upon speculation with a limited evidenciary basis.  I have no problem with you disagreeing with me.  In the end, you may very well be right.  But I have qualms with such assured statements with little or no evidence to back them up.

 I guess this illustrates the differences in the way we think.  I have my theories about these things and until I'm proven wrong I'm going to opperate under the assumption that I'm correct and try to convert people to my point of view.  My theories naturally make sense to me and I have trouble understanding other people's theories when they conflict with mine because I have a hard time wrapping my head around something that seems wrong to me.  Please forgive me if I seem a bit rude when a reply to things like this, I'm not trying to be, I just have trouble sometimes explaining what seems obvious to me.  Especially when its is someone like you Shardlet who I know is an intelligent/awesome guy.

 

I agree.  I neglected this important aspect of Harmony's condition.  But, I also don't think that this speaks against anything I submitted (nor does it speak against anything you have offered either).

 The way I see it does conflict with what you are saying, but okay.

[Shardlet]

Okay, this just isn't making sense to me.  The innate investiture scadrians have is referred to as being from Ruin and Preservation not Harmony.

 

Yes, that insvestiture was given by Ruin and Preservation at the creation of humans on Scadrial.  This investiture also includes the metallic arts.  The metallic arts are still in play and are still passed genetically from generation to generation.  There is no apparent new magic system present on Scadrial so it does not appear that Sazed has given an additional or alternative investiture.  Ergo, the investiture on Scadrial appears to be from Ruin and Preservation from when they were separate and there doesn't appear to be an investiture from Harmony since Ruin and Preservation were joined.  However, since that investiture was given by Harmony's constituent parts.  Part of Harmony's overall substance is invested.  For example, if your dad and your mom each made separate financial investments and subsequently giftied all their financial holdings to you including these investments, then part of your financial holdings are now invested even though you yourself did not make the initial investment.

 

 

  Especially when its is someone like you Shardlet who I know is an intelligent/awesome guy.

 

At least you didn't think I was a girl like Kurkistan did  .

Edited September 9, 2013 by Shardlet

[WeiryWriter]

Yes, that insvestiture was given by Ruin and Preservation at the creation of humans on Scadrial.  This investiture also includes the metallic arts.  The metallic arts are still in play and are still passed genetically from generation to generation.  There is no apparent new magic system present on Scadrial so it does not appear that Sazed has given an additional or alternative investiture.  Ergo, the investiture on Scadrial appears to be from Ruin and Preservation from when they were separate and there doesn't appear to be an investiture from Harmony since Ruin and Preservation were joined.  However, since that investiture was given by Harmony's constituent parts.  Part of Harmony's overall substance is invested.  For example, if your dad and your mom each made separate financial investments and subsequently giftied all their financial holdings to you including these investments, then part of your financial holdings are now invested even though you yourself did not make the initial investment.

 I guess that kind of makes sense when you put it like that.  But when they gift you their investments, they become "your" investments, they wouldn't really be referred to as your parents' anymore, at least not legally.

 

At least you didn't think I was a girl like Kuristan did  .

 

I thought it was a safe bet that you are a guy.

 

Also, on a side point, there is a quote somewhere where Brandon is asked about what Harmony is doing with the extra power from Ruin and he gives a cryptic non-answer along the lines of "What is he doing with the extra power"

 

 

[Kurkistan]

*Skims conversation*

At least you didn't think I was a girl like Kuristan did  .

Wait, when did I do that?

[Shardlet]

*Skims conversation*

Wait, when did I do that?

 

I think it was you. It was a few months ago.  Gack! I mispelled your name too.  Edit: I have since looked back and cannot confirm that it was you Kurkistan.  Therefore, the above allegation should be relegated to mere suspicion.

 

@Weiry-  I only made the distinction to differentiate when and who gave the investiture.  While it is substantially Harmony's investiture now, Sazed didn't give it.  That was the point of all that word wrangling  .

Edited September 9, 2013 by Shardlet

[WeiryWriter]

@Weiry-  I only made the distinction to differentiate when and who gave the investiture.  While it is substantially Harmony's investiture now, Sazed didn't give it.  That was the point of all that word wrangling  .

 

Ah... You are treating it in a metaphorical sense, where as I am treating it as literal.

[valgerth]

 I disagree, I do not believe the intents, as we know them, existed before the Shattering happened.  The intents came about as a result of the Shattering.  Also Adonalsium was not unmingled, it was shattered. 

 

 

 I know that Adonalsium is referred to as having been shattered here, but I don't think that is quite right. Specifically because of Hoid's conversation with Dalinar right before Sadeas makes the announcement about his investigation. This is the most detailed reference to Adonalsium that is made in an official book, at least that I can think of. Chapter 52, page 2345 in my nook copy.

 

:spoiler: "I wonder if you could do that do a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine it back like into something else... :/spoiler:

 

This makes me think that when Adonalsium was split, there was some sort of concious control. Now what I think is, whatever cause the original holder to be seperated from it happened in such a way that the 16 holders of the new Shards(and Hoid) were present. They collectively took the power and in the process split it into the parts that exist today. Now how that happened I don't know, but it strikes me that there was some sort of concious control. Otherwise, it seems that Shards would have been more like very large splinters, in that they would have carried the full range of emotions, just with reduced power. Look at what we know. The only time intent was changed in some way was with a level of concious control, when Sazed has made Harmony over time from Ruin and Preservation. Otherwise in the cases of Dominion and Devotion, they have had their power scattered, but the intent hasn't been affected. So there seems that there had to be some level of control to the original seperation of Adonalsium. Maybe they came across this power and couldn't agree for just one to take it, and just they fact that 16 conciousnesses were trying to control it caused the split, maybe the splitting was happening anyway and they helped guide it, who knows how.

    It's possible that Hoid was part of the guiding, and tried to take the power too. It would help to explain how he could live so long, and the knowledge he has(as side effects of touching this power). It might even be that he saw the direction the split was taking and realized that these Shards were fundamentally flawed in the way that they could only focus on the direction of their base intent(the fact that Ruin and Preservation could only create by working together, or that Odium seems bent on total destruction), and wanted to stop that. That would also explain the fact that it seems that Hoid might be possibly trying to rejoin the Shards into a new Adonalsium.

[drag0nreb0rn]

If Odium wants to be the last shard standing he will need to gain the power of other shsrds. The change in personality has made him reluctant to do so. Now that Harmony is around he has finally, in my opinion come acrosd somthing thst can rival or outmatch him in power. He has to merge with another or give up on killing off the competition.