Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 Shards get an intuitive grasp of realmatics. In fact, you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand realmatic theory.
Shardlet he/him Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 Shards get an intuitive grasp of realmatics. In fact, you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand realmatic theory. I'm not so sure about that. I don't see anything to identify that Shai is a shard or a splinter, but she seems to have at least the fundamentals down pat.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I'm not so sure about that. I don't see anything to identify that Shai is a shard or a splinter, but she seems to have at least the fundamentals down pat. http://twg.17thshard.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=a915b560c062af50317b1095820ab815&topic=7502.msg165365#msg165365 "Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand."
Odium's_Shard Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I think that was Brandon's sarcasm. Fortunately for me, at least on this forum, by name and by title, I am a Shard. You may ask your pitiful, though annoying insightful into the nature of Brandon's future books (threatening to destroy RAFOs left right and centre), questions now, foolish mortals. *Ahem* Any takers?
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I am definitely reading that quote differently than you Phantom. Nowhere does it say that "shards have an intuitive grasp of realmatics" just that "you need to be a shard or splinter to begin to understand." Which in my mind are two subtly different things. The "intuitive grasp" you are suggesting would require innate knowledge. Now I'm not saying shards don't have innate knowledge because we know they do, specifically the history of the shard and how to use its power. I just think shards have to learn how realmatics work for themselves. Shards have expanded mental capabilities which would allow them to understand the intricacies of realmatics that humans are just not able to comprehend. Humans are early vacuum-tube computers while shards are today's supercomputers; they just have more processing power then we do. And in my opinion, Vin, during all of her viewpoints, doesn't really show any deep understandings of realmatics.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I am definitely reading that quote differently than you Phantom. Nowhere does it say that "shards have an intuitive grasp of realmatics" just that "you need to be a shard or splinter to begin to understand." Which in my mind are two subtly different things. The "intuitive grasp" you are suggesting would require innate knowledge. Now I'm not saying shards don't have innate knowledge because we know they do, specifically the history of the shard and how to use its power. I just think shards have to learn how realmatics work for themselves. Shards have expanded mental capabilities which would allow them to understand the intricacies of realmatics that humans are just not able to comprehend. Humans are early vacuum-tube computers while shards are today's supercomputers; they just have more processing power then we do. And in my opinion, Vin, during all of her viewpoints, doesn't really show any deep understandings of realmatics. Sazed figures out the three realms stuff pretty much instantly.
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Sazed figures out the three realms stuff pretty much instantly. Yah, he figures it out, he doesn't instinctively know it, which was what I was saying in my post. It also seems instant from a human perspective, we don't know how long it felt like for him. Also the existence of the three realms is an incredibly basic component of realmatic theory.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Yah, he figures it out, he doesn't instinctively know it, which was what I was saying in my post. It also seems instant from a human perspective, we don't know how long it felt like for him. Also the existence of the three realms is an incredibly basic component of realmatic theory. Well, he says 'I have come to see', which doesn't really imply building up the theory from logical deduction. And shards don't seem to have time compression by default, since we have Vin's PoV on that.
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 The "I have come to see" line could be taken any number of ways, personally I interpret it as "from observation of certain things I have come to know x" Also the existence of the three realms doesn't require logical deduction just observation.
Odium's_Shard Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I agree with Weiry that knowing of the existence of three distinct Realms doesn't even open up enough understanding to fully comprehend something humans such as Hoid take advantage of in Worldhopping. It is simply not enough understanding, and I highly doubt 'innate', to fully explore the intricacies of Realmatics to a very utilisable degree.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Sazed attributes extra understanding to having his mind expanded As my mind has expanded, I've come to realize that objects and energy are actually composed of the very same things, and can change state from one to another. It makes perfect sense to me that the power of godhood would be manifest within the world in physical form. Ruin and Preservation were not nebulous abstractions. They were integral parts of existence. All of this stuff seems obvious to him.
WeiryWriter he/him Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Yes I mentioned that in my post. As you say "All of this stuff seems obvious to him" which means that it isn't innate knowledge but that Sazed figured it out.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) Yes I mentioned that in my post. As you say "All of this stuff seems obvious to him" which means that it isn't innate knowledge but that Sazed figured it out. I disagree. The fact that things are just obvious to him implies a pre-existing understanding of the concepts involved. Just like it's obvious that a penny is smaller than the sun. It isn't something that you have to figure out by doing calculations and experiments on the size of a penny or the size of the sun. Edited July 8, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Shards get an intuitive grasp of realmatics. In fact, you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand realmatic theory. Word of god, or your opinion? We're not even sure if Hoid held a Shard yet and he's able to manipulate Realmatic Theory. Sazed's mental capacity was increased astronomically when he took up Preservation and Ruin - processing logical conclusions based on observation and evidence seen through the lense of a Shard would happen instantly only to our perceptions. How fast can you do complex mental arithmetic? Much faster than some people, right? And still others with a higher IQ can do it faster than you. Some people can comprehend in a year a medical course that would take the average student four years of struggle and dedication. Some people just "get" physics, while others are confused by it. All of that is relative to intellectual capacity. It's safe to say a Shard's capacity is much greater than our own. Seeing and then understanding how atoms work is a matter of deduction for Sazed. In realistic terms it'd be like condensing the time it takes Bill Nye to understand a concept in mechanical engineering versus one of his average students. Nye is the Shard who is able to look at the various components of what is observable, and present a sufficiently accurate conclusion. The knowledge is not innate to Sazed, he is just able to compute the constituents much faster than we can comprehend. He still struggled with his powers while trying to find an equilibrium for Scadrial. While adjusting the solar system he had to experiment and observe the results, and then adjust to find suitable conditions. That doesn't speak of innate knowledge to me. Edited July 9, 2013 by Lyrebon 1
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Word of god, or your opinion? I quoted the 'you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand realmatic theory' directly from WoB a couple posts back. 2
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) I quoted the 'you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand realmatic theory' directly from WoB a couple posts back. So are you going to address the rest of my post that I courteously took the time to write? Also, if you're right in your assessment about having to be a Shard to begin to understand Realmatics, how come Shai has a clear understanding of the basics? “All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence— as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.” ~Shai to Gaotona* Not to mention Realmatics is, in part, present in the Terris, Vorin, and MaiPon religions. In The Way of Kings, Gavarah had also proposed the theory of the three realms, related to Shallan by Jasnah in one of her lectures. Here's the quote: Gavarah hadn't reached her twentieth Weeping when she proposed the theory of the three realms. ** I haven't just cherry picked that quote, the rest of the context gives no reason to not believe it's Realmatic related. * http://coppermind.net/wiki/Realmatic_Theory ** http://tinyurl.com/l3mcwpt (opens in same tab) Edited July 9, 2013 by Lyrebon 2
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) I'd argue that the existence of the three realms is something so elementary to realmatic theory it doesn't even count as the most basic of basics - even if it's not at all obvious to someone who is uninitiated. What Shai is working with is a so-so approximation that's the equivalent of Aristotelian physics. Naturally, of course, people can parrot facts given to them by a shard without knowing the reasoning behind it. For example, Sazed could say 'a lerasium and atium alloy does such and such, that's totally obvious', but the best non-shard scholars of realmatics would have no idea how he derived that info. You can make an analogy to Awakening if you want - people with more Endowment can just intuit commands out of thin air. Edited July 9, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Your point was that non-Shard holders couldn't begin to understand or comprehend Realmatics, when evidence shows that several members of the cosmere have displayed that ability. Shai has a profound understanding of the three realms - her knowledge is not "so-so." If we're comparing it to the atomic model, her description is beyond Dalton's Plum Pudding theory and has already begun laying groundwork for the Standard Model. Every magic system we've seen obeys the laws of physics, so I have to operate on the logic that Realmatics is a readily observable scientific phenomena. Given sufficient technology, the magic of the cosmere could be examined by its inhabitants. It's underlying principles defined via theoretical examination. We've made theories for countless phenomena based purely on speculation and mathematical analysis. If Realmatics obeys the laws of physics it is constrained by mathematical law and can therefore be examined in this way. If Shai has already described a starting point, what's to stop people examining her theory? You can't say that the three realms don't count; they are integral to the composition of Realmatics. That's like saying up-quarks are not essential to the atom. Realmatics is a law of the universe.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) You can't say that the three realms don't count; they are integral to the composition of Realmatics. That's like saying up-quarks are not essential to the atom. Realmatics is a law of the universe. It's more like saying 'motion exists' is fundamental to string theory. Again, Brandon is the one who said it. If you don't like it, take it up with him at the next Q&A. Edited July 9, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) It's more like saying 'motion exists' is fundamental to string theory. No. No it's not. Realmatic Theory refers to the structure of the Cosmere. There are three realms: Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive. [source: Coppermind.net] They're pretty important to understanding Realmatics... Without the Three Realms, Realmatic Theory can't exist. Again, Brandon is the one who said it. If you don't like it, take it up with him at the next Q&A. He's also said Realmatic Theory was part of the Terris religion.* An entire religion of people can't be Shards can they? And I'm pretty sure more than a few people in this thread have interpreted what Brandon said differently to you. Of note: advanced knowledge of alloying two God metals would almost certainly require an intimate knowledge of the Shards that created them. I believe that was what Brandon was referring to. *http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977 #182 Edited July 9, 2013 by Lyrebon 1
Windrunner he/him Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 I'm of the opinion that Phantom is interpreting this quote a little too strictly. I'm sure, as others have said, that knowledge of some of the intricacies of Realmatic theory may have been beyond most people, but the basics are known on at least three worlds. He also could have simply been referring that no one on Scadrial, at that point in time, could know such things without being a Shard or a Splinter. The cosmere has science, people will figure it out. Hopefully, I'll be seeing Brandon at a signing in a few months, I'll be sure to get this question cleared up. 3
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) They're pretty important to understanding Realmatics... Without the Three Realms, Realmatic Theory can't exist. Without positing the existence of motion, physics can't exist. It's pretty important. And just to be clear here, there's a distinct difference between understanding 'the metalaws that are beneath magic systems' and 'understanding the magic systems themselves'. Edited July 9, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity 1
Windrunner he/him Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Without positing the existence of motion, physics can't exist. It's pretty important. And just to be clear here, there's a distinct difference between understanding 'the metalaws that are beneath magic systems' and 'understanding the magic systems themselves'. I'd argue that the existence of the three Realms is a bit more complex than simply knowing that motion exists. The latter is intuitively obvious, while the former isn't something you just know straight off the bat. I think it's kind of a false analogy. I do agree that there is a distinct difference between those two things, but I am unsure as to why you're pointing it out. I firmly believe that people in the cosmere will understand both eventually, so I'm afraid I've missed your point entirely.
Phantom Monstrosity Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 I'd argue that the existence of the three Realms is a bit more complex than simply knowing that motion exists. The latter is intuitively obvious, while the former isn't something you just know straight off the bat. I think it's kind of a false analogy. I don't think there's that big a difference. Knowing 'hey there are other realms of existence' isn't a particularly useful fact, given that it has no direct applicability to anything. My minimum bar for a 'basic understanding' here is having some ability to accurately predict what happens when a shard interacts with another shard or a planet. Anything below that fails to even be basic. It's just having some vague idea how to play with the toys that some shard gave you.
Recommended Posts