Dual Wielded Honorblades

[Grey Knight]

I was just reading a Cosmere Q&A, and it got me thinking: What would happen if someone dual-wielded Honorblades? Would he/she get the two pairs of surges granted by the Honorblades? Or would they get only one pair of surges?

[Shadowspren he/him]

hmm, theoretically I don't see why not... Would it have any effect on the person that would keep them from physically using 4 surges? 

 

in WoR it talks about the differences in the stormlight usage between a Nahel bond and an Honorblade, stating that the latter requires more because it uses it up heaps faster... My question then being, If for instance someone held the Windrunner and Skybreaker blades, would it strengthen that person's ability to use the Gravitation surge in comparison with just one of the blades?

[Moogle]

A few WoBs which don't quite answer the question but strongly argue for 'yes':
 

Kythis
Can they hold more than one Honorblade at a time?

Brandon Sanderson
That is theoretically possible.
(source)

 

Question
For the Honorblades, if somebody that was already a Radiant used an Honorblade, would they get that Surge also?

Brandon Sanderson
It is possible to get multiples, yes. Good question.
(source)

[Alfa he/him]

Theoreticallly, you could get all the surgebinding powers with only five Honorblades and not being a radiant... but what waste would it be? Five people, each with a honorblade, are far deadlier, than than one man with five.

[natc]

So have 5 people with 5 honorblades, then the sixth with the other five

You can even do fancy sword-throwing acrobatics.

[Grey Knight]

Wouldn't it also mean that a person who is dual-wielding Honor blades would use up Stormlight four times as quickly as a normal Radiant?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Wouldn't it also mean that a person who is dual-wielding Honor blades would use up Stormlight four times as quickly as a normal Radiant?

 

Working under the assumption that one Honorblade is 2x the consumption, then yes, though I don't think the increased rate has ever been elaborated on.

 

I think the idea is cool, but it seems, to me, that the more tactical and effective use of two Honorblades is to give the second blade to a second person. From a scholarly point of view, though, it would be interesting to learn of the interactions between surges that don't normally pair.

[natc]

Would regrowth partially help solve the issue of passive healing being too inefficient compared to Radiants?

Slicking around while lashed to the walls and ceilings would make for great mobility indoors.

[Oudeis he/him]

If for instance someone held the Windrunner and Skybreaker blades, would it strengthen that person's ability to use the Gravitation surge in comparison with just one of the blades?

 

To answer this part:

 

 

Question

If a non Windrunner picked up Jezrien's honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Source.

From his tone answering the question, you might have a stronger connection to the Gravitation Surge from having both Blades, but it looks like you can just use up however much stormlight you've got, and that's the fundamental difference between "strength" of one Gravitation Surgebind and another.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Oudeis

[natc]

Yeah, this isn't really like the case of allomancy. There's no limit to how fast you can consume your stormlight (besides the fact that you will run out of course), so you can just use more. It's more like feruchemy that way if you want to compare to metallic arts.

[MetalSmith he/him]

So in there end of WoR, Syl changes into anything he needs in his fight against Szeth. A shield,sword, spear and stuff like that. First, dual wielding two Honorblades might just be one spren. So, the person never had two blades or two surges in the first place. The other thing is could Honorspren change into a sword and a shield? Or two swords. Just putting that out there

[soulcastJam he/him]

Honorblades aren't made from spren which is why there isn't really a problem with having multiple honorblades (you don't have to fulfill multiple types of oaths.

And the rate of stormlight consumption doesn't increase just by wielding more blades. It's just increased by using two or more types of surgebinding at the same time. Any radiant has the same problem if they use more than one surge simultaneously. Having multiple honorblades just gives you more weapons in your arsenal.

[Oudeis he/him]

And the rate of stormlight consumption doesn't increase just by wielding more blades.

 

Interesting... upon what are you basing this? Presumably the initial comment was in reference to Syl's statement that the wielder of an honorblade will consume "dangerous amounts" of Stormlight, and an expectation that if one Blade absorbs mucho Stormlight, a second blade would have the same tax. Do you know this isn't true?

[natc]

Szeth's stormlight efficiency was definitely storming terrible. He uses way too much just to heal when Kaladin can shatter his legs and fix them in seconds.

I always assumed this hypothetical honorblade drain is similar to Nightblood's breath drain while drawn in order to sustain its rampant . . . vaporizing.

So in there end of WoR, Syl changes into anything he needs in his fight against Szeth. A shield,sword, spear and stuff like that. First, dual wielding two Honorblades might just be one spren. So, the person never had two blades or two surges in the first place. The other thing is could Honorspren change into a sword and a shield? Or two swords. Just putting that out there

That's a shardblade. Honorblades are the Heralds' swords that the spren basically reverse-engineered the properties of to create surgebinders.

Edited August 9, 2015 by natc

[CJ Feboris]

This topic is particularly relevant to picking a champion. The champion would certainly benefit from having access to all the surges. (As long as they practiced a bunch first...)

[AerionBFII he/him]

Hmmmmmm if i had the option to duel wield i would probably sell one SB and keep one and stick to the Orthodox style.

 

I understand it would look 'cool' but really it would just be cumbersome since you can't summon two at once and when i try to picture it it just looks ridiculous... 

[Alfa he/him]

Depends on the size and form of the Honorblades. Longsword and dagger/shortsword are a quite effective combination in certain situations. I can say from personal experience (though I never user Shard- or Honorblades).

 

AND. What is the appropriate price for an Honorblade? An Island in the Reshi sea? An Emerald in the size of a chull?

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Alfa

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Another question to ask is would bonding two Honourblades double your capacity to hold stormlight?

[natc]

Hmmmmmm if i had the option to duel wield i would probably sell one SB and keep one and stick to the Orthodox style.

I understand it would look 'cool' but really it would just be cumbersome since you can't summon two at once and when i try to picture it it just looks ridiculous...

A normal pair of shardblades would indeed take 20 seconds to summon both, but the WoBs always implied the honorblade taking 10 heartbeats was all in Szeth's head. Plus they don't appear to be alive in the first place, so you can't really revive them.

[Dhavaer]

Interesting... upon what are you basing this? Presumably the initial comment was in reference to Syl's statement that the wielder of an honorblade will consume "dangerous amounts" of Stormlight, and an expectation that if one Blade absorbs mucho Stormlight, a second blade would have the same tax. Do you know this isn't true?

 

It depends on how the extra stormlight cost from the honorblades works. It could be:

 

a) having an active honorblade passively drains stormlight. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and y stormlight per second while his blade is out. Two honorblades would drain 2y per second.

 

using surges through honorblades is more expensive than using them through Nahel bonds. Kaladin spends x stormlight to use his surges, Szeth spends xy stormlight to do the same, where y > 1.

 

c) holding stormlight with a honorblade bond is less efficient than with a Nahel bond. Kaladin uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses z stormlight (or z% or his current stormlight) per second through inefficiency. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses zy stormlight per second through inefficiency, where y > 1. Jasnah gets Jezrien's honorblade and uses windrunner surges, spending x stormlight and losing z stormlight through inefficiency.

[Michael Portz he/him]

A normal pair of shardblades would indeed take 20 seconds to summon both, but the WoBs always implied the honorblade taking 10 heartbeats was all in Szeth's head. Plus they don't appear to be alive in the first place, so you can't really revive them.

 

Hmm...are you sure that two shardblades need 20 seconds? If they are live-spren-blades they both should appear instantaneous, or?

[Michael Portz he/him]

It depends on how the extra stormlight cost from the honorblades works. It could be:

 

a) having an active honorblade passively drains stormlight. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and y stormlight per second while his blade is out. Two honorblades would drain 2y per second.

 

using surges through honorblades is more expensive than using them through Nahel bonds. Kaladin spends x stormlight to use his surges, Szeth spends xy stormlight to do the same, where y > 1.

 

c) holding stormlight with a honorblade bond is less efficient than with a Nahel bond. Kaladin uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses z stormlight (or z% or his current stormlight) per second through inefficiency. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses zy stormlight per second through inefficiency, where y > 1. Jasnah gets Jezrien's honorblade and uses windrunner surges, spending x stormlight and losing z stormlight through inefficiency.

 

(completely off-topic ... but I like your b ) )

[Alfa he/him]

It depends on how the extra stormlight cost from the honorblades works. It could be:

 

a) having an active honorblade passively drains stormlight. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and y stormlight per second while his blade is out. Two honorblades would drain 2y per second.

 

using surges through honorblades is more expensive than using them through Nahel bonds. Kaladin spends x stormlight to use his surges, Szeth spends xy stormlight to do the same, where y > 1.

 

c) holding stormlight with a honorblade bond is less efficient than with a Nahel bond. Kaladin uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses z stormlight (or z% or his current stormlight) per second through inefficiency. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses zy stormlight per second through inefficiency, where y > 1. Jasnah gets Jezrien's honorblade and uses windrunner surges, spending x stormlight and losing z stormlight through inefficiency.

 

Good Idea to formalize this. Let us use following symbols:

S: Stormlight hold by subject

i: stormlight drained due to inefficiency and to enhance the body. Let us assume linear drain, for example the capacity of one full broam per hour.

h: stormlight drained on healing.

x: stormlight used on surgebinding.

o: stormlight gain from external sorce.

Also: t is for time. a,b,c,d are parameters that affect the variables.

Then:

S(t+1)=S(t)-a*i-b*h(t)-c*x(t)+d*o(t)

 

Let us assume two actors, Szeth (with one honorblade) and Kaladin (three ideals spoken). Let us assume, that S(0,Kaladin)=S(=0,Szeth) and that S(1,Kaladin)>S(1,Szeth).

We know, that Szeth has lower healing kapacities than a usual Radiant, so b(Szeth)>b(Kaladin).

Also let us assume, that the stormlight gain is equal, so d(Szeth)=d(Kaladin).

The exact holding efficiency is unknown yet, as well as the amount of stormlight to surgebind, even if in the last case it is implied, that Szeth uses more in both occasions; a(Szeth)>a(Kaladin), b(Szeth)>b(Kaladin).

Unanswered question: will an extra Honorblade change any of the Parameters?

 

[Oudeis he/him]

Hmm...are you sure that two shardblades need 20 seconds? If they are live-spren-blades they both should appear instantaneous, or?

 

Yep. WoB. But valid point; both Honorblades and living Sprenblades might not appear concurrently, but could certainly appear nigh-instantaneously.

 

It depends on how the extra stormlight cost from the honorblades works. It could be:

 

c) holding stormlight with a honorblade bond is less efficient than with a Nahel bond. Kaladin uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses z stormlight (or z% or his current stormlight) per second through inefficiency. Szeth uses x stormlight to use his surges and loses zy stormlight per second through inefficiency, where y > 1. Jasnah gets Jezrien's honorblade and uses windrunner surges, spending x stormlight and losing z stormlight through inefficiency.

 

C here is the key, because recall that stormlight gets used up constantly. It's not like metals in allomancy which sit there perfectly preserved until used, merely holding Stormlight not only activates its passive effects, but causes you to lose it.

 

Good Idea to formalize this. Let us use following symbols:

S: Stormlight hold by subject

i: stormlight drained due to inefficiency and to enhance the body. Let us assume linear drain, for example the capacity of one full broam per hour.

h: stormlight drained on healing.

x: stormlight used on surgebinding.

o: stormlight gain from external sorce.

Also: t is for time. a,b,c,d are parameters that affect the variables.

Then:

S(t+1)=S(t)-a*i-b*h(t)-c*x(t)+d*o(t)

 

Let us assume two actors, Szeth (with one honorblade) and Kaladin (three ideals spoken). Let us assume, that S(0,Kaladin)=S(=0,Szeth) and that S(1,Kaladin)>S(1,Szeth).

We know, that Szeth has lower healing kapacities than a usual Radiant, so b(Szeth)>b(Kaladin).

Also let us assume, that the stormlight gain is equal, so d(Szeth)=d(Kaladin).

The exact holding efficiency is unknown yet, as well as the amount of stormlight to surgebind, even if in the last case it is implied, that Szeth uses more in both occasions; a(Szeth)>a(Kaladin), b(Szeth)>b(Kaladin).

Unanswered question: will an extra Honorblade change any of the Parameters?

 

Love this. I am going to be 'that guy' however. Let me clarify that this is awesome, and prolly as good as we can get right now with what we know, or close to. There is much more to it, however. First let me make sure I understand a, b, c, and d.

 

a: So this is a specific Radiant's efficiency with holding Stormlight, then? Including its use to passively increase physical abilities.

b: Specifically how efficient an individual is at healing, as well as how much damage is currently a part of them.

c: The Radiant's efficiency with a Surge; how much Stormlight they choose to put into a Surge, and if different Surges have different efficiencies, not to mention the difference between, say, one small illusion and one huge illusion.

d: If different Knights, or Knights at different levels of Ideals, have a different coefficient of waste when Investing. Obviously Lift might be a whole separate category.

 

In short, each of a-d is really a full equation of their own, with many, many sub-factors we can at best guess at.

 

i: A couple of things. It's not linear, Kaladin comments that having a ton makes it drain very quickly, but having just a bit will cause it to trickle out. Or is that another factor of b? I feel like i, h, x, and d are truthfully all just part of the larger a, b, c, and d equations.

 

Maybe also an equation e for idiosyncratic things? When Kaladin fell down from the Chasm, or landed after jumping at the listeners at the Tower, a pulse of stormlight flew out from him. Maybe it's a part of "healing"? a part of "general abilities"? A specific part of his Pressure Surge? And don't forget that Radiants can apparently devest. Shallan deliberately releases her Stormlight into the gems of the Oathgate. That, certainly, doesn't seem to fit any of the previous categories, unless we expand c to include all deliberate uses of Stormlight, not just Surges.

 

Also, Shallan ties in her waste Stormlight to feed her Lightweaving. I don't even know how you write that, mathematically. How do you indicate that under some circumstances, a factor shows up in one part of the equation, but in other circumstances, it shows up in another? Is that even mathematically a thing? Is there a way to indicate, "Of these two separate expressions, in every instance multiply one of them by 1 and one of them by 0"?

 

So... simplified, S(t+1)=S(t)-a-b-c+d-e.

 

Within the expression a, we need to consider

• a baseline algorithm of the efficiency just to hold stormlight as a function of total stormlight currently held
• Specific efficiency of the Surgebinder, i.e. number of Ideals spoken, are you holding an Honorblade, do individuals just have unique capacity, is it something you can train or control. We might fold into this factor things like are you holding your breath or not
• Does stormlight get used up more if you're exerting yourself? If you sprint for miles and miles, will it drain stormlight from you faster?
• Possibly things like the pulse that came from Kaladin, if it's part of this aspect of the overall equation
• Things like Shallan feeding her waste Stormlight into her illusory constructs; does this affect rate of drain? Whether or not it affects the cost of Surgebinding is best left for another part of the equation

Within the expression b, we need to consider

• Current damage to the body
• How efficient this specific Surgebinder is with healing

Within the expression c, we need to consider... actually, I'm changing my mind. Let's combine c and e, and just make it "active use of Stormlight"

• So we've got, first, the amount of Stormlight you're putting into every Surge
• This is possibly modified by an individual Surgebinder's efficiency, which among other factors is possible to train and improve
• Individual Surges might have a different factor of efficiency... though I suppose that actually doesn't matter, since we're only looking here at the total amount you're putting into a Surge. Maybe each one has a Surge tax? Like, it takes n units of Stormlight just to activate a Full Lashing, apart from how much you put into it, but only n/2 to make a Basic Lashing?
• Possibly ameliorated by things like Shallan hooking up her waste Stormlight to feed a construct
• What about Surges that work in fundamentally different ways? Lightweaving only works when nearby either Shallan or Pattern, and constantly feed off the Stormlight in her system; by contrast, all three Lashings Kaladin is capable of are one-time Stormlight 'payments' which then work independently until they run out, or until their Stormlight is recalled. Lift has one Surge which, from what we've seen is either off or "on", constantly draining awesomeness, and a second Surge which seems to be the Kaladin "put Stormlight into this, get instant effect" thing, though in this case it seems to just effect immediate change, rather than slowly using up available Investiture to keep an effect going
• Shallan gifting Stormlight to Pattern; is Surgebinder-and-Spren part of the same system, so we don't count this?
• Shallan devesting to fill the gems of the Oathgate with Stormlight. Is there efficiency lost here?

And finally, for d.

• Amount of Stormlight from the source
• Efficiency
• Possibly some factor unique to Orders/whether or not you have an Honorblade/individuals, which might be trained or might be static.
• Is there a point in mentioning things like Lift here? Or are circumstances like hers idiosyncratic enough to warrant exclusion from the general principle?

And I no longer remember if I was going anywhere with this. That is long and somewhat convoluted. And I'm sure I've either forgotten some things or messed something up. And there are probably assumptions we're making that will eventually prove false. Wow Surgebinding is complicated.

[Alfa he/him]

Oudeis: I think we shall start a separate topic for Stormlight drain to get the right formula- each of your points is important.

EDIT: started here

Edited August 11, 2015 by Alfa