Difference in Honorspren

[Kiwi]

The prelude, wherein nine of the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact (although Taln still seems to have been bound to it), has the following:

So the Heralds did fight alongside the Radiants. 

This is apparently a bronze age civilization from the hints that BS includes.

Later, at the Recreance, civilization has advanced to the iron age.  I do not currently believe that there were any desolations in between. 

 

Right, there has not been any desolations since the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact as far as I am aware.

 

The Heralds return immediately after desolations, which seem to be separated by something on the order of centuries.  Dalinar apparently talks to Nohadon following a desolation. The Radiants are formed and Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime.  So the Heralds were not physically present at the founding of the Radiants.  I would guess that someone communed with Tanavast or discovered something he meant to be found to establish the Radiants in accordance with the ideals of the Heralds. 

 

I'm okay with that, I was just saying that they existed together at one point.

 

Gavilar or Dalinar re-reading the Way of Kings doesn't seem significant,  since the Vanrial community at the Silent mountain (site of Urithiru?) (is that where the Radiants went?) preserved the Way of Kings and the Dawnchant and people have been reading it all along. 

 

I have to disagree if I am to keep with my OP.  Reading, or having the words read to you, in itself does nothing magical.  BUT, it can change your perception of honor, it can change the way you act.  Most lighteyes now think that Honor involves dueling, vengeance against the Parshendi, and generally things that I don't think should be viewed as honorable.  Dalinar even says that he has changed the way he thinks and acts since reading the Way of Kings. 

 

Although, this doesn't completely go along with my OP, since most people view Dalinar as feeble minded and crazy.  That's part of the reason why I think his visions may be linked with Honor's (the Shard) power.  Not much to base it on, just a feeling.

 

 

I think it's said outright in the prelude that the Heralds chill about in Damnation between Desolations, popping back onto Roshar each time a new one begins.

 

I'd be hard pressed to think of the Heralds "chilling" in Damnation

Edited June 11, 2013 by Kiwi

[hoser he/him]

I have to disagree if I am to keep with my OP.  Reading, or having the words read to you, in itself does nothing magical.  BUT, it can change your perception of honor, it can change the way you act.  Most lighteyes now think that Honor involves dueling, vengeance against the Parshendi, and generally things that I don't think should be viewed as honorable.  Dalinar even says that he has changed the way he thinks and acts since reading the Way of Kings. 

 

Although, this doesn't completely go along with my OP, since most people view Dalinar as feeble minded and crazy.  That's part of the reason why I think his visions may be linked with Honor's (the Shard) power.  Not much to base it on, just a feeling.

 

 

 

I'd be hard pressed to think of the Heralds "chilling" in Damnation

Oh yeah.  Your thread.  It's purpose.  I was just flitting through picking at nits in my position as unofficial historian for the Radiants.  Sorry.  I did read your initial post, but kind of lost interest with all the <snarky sarcasm>"awesomeness"</snarky sarcasm> going on .

 

This is in Ch. 11, Location 2834 of 18313 on my e-book.  A scene with Kaladin and Syl at the Honor Chasm.

 

"They would have died more quickly without you.  You made it so they had a family in the army.  I remember their gratitude.  It's what drew me in the first place..." (Emphasis is mine)

 

I believe this is a significant difference between Honorspren and the other regular types of spren.  I believe they are drawn to a certain person when a large number of other individuals see that one person is acting honorably.  Kaladin's charisma and honorable actions make those around him better people, and in turn they think of him as a prime example of what an "honorable" person should be like.  It's almost like a pre-requisite.  If other people don't see you as honorable, then it would be impossible to attract an Honorspren to yourself.

 

Let me know what you guys think.  Feel free to poke holes in this, or tell me this idea is "so last friday".

I fundamentally disagree. 

 

I think there is WoB (but I don't have a quote) to the effect that investiture on Roshar is based on actions. 

 

Isomere, help please, I promise not to ninja you on this one (besides, Kurkistan did ask me directly for my evidence).

 

Syl was attracted to Kaladin's actions per the quote you offer yourself.   

 

The Shrodinger's spren thing can introduce a level of circularity into any spren action, but I don't think that is what is ruling here. 

 

You also make another counterargument quite effectively with regard to Dalinar.  People acting honorably are often seen otherwise by the less honorable people around them. 

 

Take Bridge 4.  They start acting honorably but are detested by the other bridge crews and the soldiers.  Eventually the other bridge crews look up to them. If we find that they have been attracting honorspren, I bet that it will have started before or at least not because of the other bridge crews' adulation.  I think the turning point was when they start to heal the wounded from other bridge crews and when they agree to try to rescue Dalinar's army the honorspren attraction gets stronger. 

 

Actually, I reread your post and don't totally disagree.  I don't think that the quantity of people is as important as the quality of the emotion.  It could be that the gratitude of a few is attractive to Syl because the quality of the emotion is attractive to Syl.  The gratitude of the people that Bridge 4 saves could be attracting other Honorspren likewise. 

 

Edit: changed my mind, added Hegelian synthesis paragraph to end. 

Edited June 12, 2013 by hoser

[Leuthie]

By definition, honor is something others see in you.

[hoser he/him]

By definition, honor is something others see in you.

The definitions I have seen involve both the reputation and the actions of the honorable person.  So, I would say that one can behave honorably even if there are no witnesses.  If a tree falls honorably in the woods ... (ninja smiley).  The question relevant to this thread is whether it would attract an Honorspren.  

 

And apologies to both Leuthie and Isomere for getting them confused.  Sorry

 

Edited: added apology and last sentence of the first paragraph

Edited June 11, 2013 by hoser

[Leuthie]

One can call oneself amazing and smart, but if no one else agrees, is it so?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

One can call oneself amazing and smart, but if no one else agrees, is it so?

Certainly possible.  Intelligence is something that can be demonstrated in the absense of any other humans whatsoever.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[hoser he/him]

One can call oneself amazing and smart, but if no one else agrees, is it so?

 

Certainly possible.  Intelligence is something that can be demonstrated in the absense of any other humans whatsoever.

And to be amazing, I would just have to amaze myself. 

 

Popular, on the other hand, ...

Edited June 12, 2013 by hoser

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think there is WoB (but I don't have a quote) to the effect that investiture on Roshar is based on actions. 

 

Isomere, help please, I promise not to ninja you on this one (besides, Kurkistan did ask me directly for my evidence).

 

*Perks up at mention of name*

 

Here's the quote. I also had a tiny little thread on it.

 

[brandon] talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In a lot of his systems people are through some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris through the Shaod, In Mistborn it's genetic, in The Way of Kings it depends on what someone has done.

 

Edited June 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet he/him]

Here are a couple of thoughts.  We frequently in these posts use the name 'Honorspren' (note capitalization), however, Syl and Nohadon both say 'honorspren'.  It may be possible that we are trying too hard to link honorspren to Honor.  Maybe not, but I think it is an important point to be aware of.  If it were capitalized, I would say that there is an empirical standard of honor sourced in the driving intent of the Shard Honor.  However, Syl gives a more fleshed out understanding of honor for her purposes (prhaps by extension for Honor as well) in ch. 67 (hardcover pg. 913):

 

"...I've remembered what kind of spren I am...I bind things, Kaladin, ...I am honorspren.  Spirit of Oaths.  Of promises.  And of Nobility."

 

Sounds a lot like integrity.  (Also sounds a lot like Dalinar). 

 

So, how come Dalinar does not have a spren friend?  Especially since he is almost universally ackowledged by both lighteyes (whether they like him or not) and darkeyes to be honorable and to act with integrity.  His shardblade may have repelled an interested spren.  But I think it is largely because the world is changing and has been for at least the last seven years.  I think spren like Syl are only just becoming active again.  This is, of course a tangent topic, so I'll leave it there for now.

[hoser he/him]

 

*Perks up at mention of name*

 

Here's the quote. I also had a tiny little thread on it.

 

Thank you!

[skaa he/him]

Here are a couple of thoughts.  We frequently in these posts use the name 'Honorspren' (note capitalization), however, Syl and Nohadon both say 'honorspren'.  It may be possible that we are trying too hard to link honorspren to Honor.  Maybe not, but I think it is an important point to be aware of.  If it were capitalized, I would say that there is an empirical standard of honor sourced in the driving intent of the Shard Honor.  However, Syl gives a more fleshed out understanding of honor for her purposes (prhaps by extension for Honor as well) in ch. 67 (hardcover pg. 913):

 

"...I've remembered what kind of spren I am...I bind things, Kaladin, ...I am honorspren.  Spirit of Oaths.  Of promises.  And of Nobility."

 

Sounds a lot like integrity.  (Also sounds a lot like Dalinar). 

Ah, yes, I'm guilty of capitalizing that as well. I'll start calling them honorspren from now on.

 

But I'm still not sure I see any difficulty in linking honorspren to the Shard Honor. I mean, how would you imagine Honorspren (capital H) to be like, exactly? Would they not also give a high importance to oaths and promises, given Honor's Shardic Intent?

 

Also, we know that several types of spren can be called honorspren:

 

So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense...you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation.

 

I think the different types of spren that are mostly or fully of Honor can bind themselves to different kinds of Surgebinders.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Meg]

I'd like to add that neither kind of spren are capitalized in TWoK. It's us doing this, but it's not "given from the source" (TWoK). 

 

(Also I'd like to admit that this disturbs me kind of, I'd have capitalized them, but as BS didn't ...)

 

edit: adding: 

 

I daresay that "honorspren" are not called so because they are "of honor" but because the are attracted by honar(able behaviour). 

Edited June 12, 2013 by Meg

[Leuthie]

They are called honorspren because they are a manifestation of the concept of honor. They are attracted to honorable actions for the same reason.

[skaa he/him]

If it were capitalized, I would say that there is an empirical standard of honor sourced in the driving intent of the Shard Honor.

 

I can sort of understand the lack of capitalization. They aren't capitalized for the same reason atium isn't capitalized in Mistborn novels: Those are in-universe names, and to the people inhabiting those planets, they are just common nouns referring to certain magical things.

 

I daresay that "honorspren" are not called so because they are "of honor" but because the are attracted by honar(able behaviour). 

 

They are called honorspren because they are a manifestation of the concept of honor. They are attracted to honorable actions for the same reason.

 

I think we're forgetting that all sixteen Shards are named after concepts themselves, and are very strongly attached to the concept they are named after. If one may be slightly flippant, one might almost say that the Shards themselves are just god-level spren, so to speak.

 

If Ati and Leras came to Roshar instead of Scadrial, there might be entities called ruinspren and preservationspren, and we'd be debating on whether those entities referred only to the concepts of ruin and preservation or to the Shards themselves. But I think the answer is obvious: they would refer to both.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[blackmagic3 he/him]

We don't capitalise human but we do capitalise our names its makes perfect sense that honorspren is not capitalised.

[skaa he/him]

We don't capitalise human but we do capitalise our names its makes perfect sense that honorspren is not capitalised.

 

Yes, that, too. I'm still not sure why Shardlet thinks capitalization is important, since in either case honorspren are still related to both the concept of honor and the Shard Honor (which is itself related to the concept of honor), being mostly/fully of that particular Shard.

 

Edit: The idea that multiple types of spren can be called honorspren makes me wonder if the cryptics call themselves honorspren as well. I'm starting to think cryptics, Syl, and other spren that are "of Honor" may have different names but are all under the same umbrella term "honorspren". So perhaps we can call Syl "integrityspren", the cryptics "honestyspren", etc.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[The Count he/him]

Yes, that, too. I'm still not sure why Shardlet thinks capitalization is important, since in either case honorspren are still related to both the concept of honor and the Shard Honor (which is itself related to the concept of honor), being mostly/fully of that particular Shard.

 

Edit: The idea that multiple types of spren can be called honorspren makes me wonder if the cryptics call themselves honorspren as well. I'm starting to think cryptics, Syl, and other spren that are "of Honor" may have different names but are all under the same umbrella term "honorspren". So perhaps we can call Syl "integrityspren", the cryptics "honestyspren", etc.

 

But the question about whether honorspren are directly or indirectly related to Honor (Shard) is quite important.

 

If (as some theories contend) honorspren (able to bond) were directly created by Honor (Shard) as splinters of himself then a capitalization as Honorspren could be considered appropriate due to their being direct extensions of Honor's (Shard) intent.

 

As opposed to spren created after Honor's splintering which could (in some sense) also be catagorised a honorspren (i.e spren as a piece of Honor) even if they cannot form bonds.

 

Not sure those two sentences actually make any sense now I read them back ... ho hum...

 

I think the grammar argument is probably spot on here and I am in danger of overthinking.

 

spren / flamespren / deathspren / honorspren = noun therefore not capitalized.

Edited June 12, 2013 by MadRand

[skaa he/him]

If (as some theories contend) honorspren (able to bond) were directly created by Honor (Shard) as splinters of himself then a capitalization as Honorspren could be considered appropriate due to their being direct extensions of Honor's (Shard) intent.

 

...

I think the grammar argument is probably spot on here and I am in danger of overthinking.

 

spren / flamespren / deathspren / honorspren = noun therefore not capitalized.

 

Yep, they're just common nouns. On Scadrial, atium isn't capitalized even though it has Ati's name in it.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Kiwi]

Here are a couple of thoughts.  We frequently in these posts use the name 'Honorspren' (note capitalization), however, Syl and Nohadon both say 'honorspren'.  It may be possible that we are trying too hard to link honorspren to Honor.  Maybe not, but I think it is an important point to be aware of. 

 

You make a good point.  Through this discussion, I've started coming around to the idea that honorspren is just a general term to cover several types of spren like skaa points out in the following.

 

 

But I'm still not sure I see any difficulty in linking honorspren to the Shard Honor. I mean, how would you imagine Honorspren (capital H) to be like, exactly? Would they not also give a high importance to oaths and promises, given Honor's Shardic Intent?

 

Also, we know that several types of spren can be called honorspren:

 

I think the different types of spren that are mostly or fully of Honor can bind themselves to different kinds of Surgebinders.

 

I hadn't seen those questions before.  It's good to know that all spren are either of Honor or Cultivation, or a mix of both.  The possibilities, though, are just so varied I don't know where to go.  I really think we're on to something, but I think we need some more WOB to connect a few more dots.

 

I think I'm just gonna RAFO myself

[Shardlet he/him]

For clarification I believe that Syl is the way she is because she is a splinter of Honor or Cultivation.  I can see it both ways.  In a number of posts I have directly ascribed her to Honor.  I'm not saying that we are wrong when we ascribe her to Honor.  And I don't have a particularly different view about her nature that is contrary to what we have been discussing (except that I could readily accept that she is of Cultivation).

 

My point was that I feared that by capitalizing honorspren, we were pigheon-holing them within somewhat rigid boundaries.  We have general enough info at this point to allow for a variety of hypothesis.  But when we capitalize something we ascribe particular importance to the name of that thing (i,e,, 'Honor' vs. 'honor', one is a Shard, one is an attribute).  This causes us to narrow our view.  I don't recall seeing anyone posit that honorspren might be more of Cultivation than Honor.  The link to Honor was so strong in our minds.  Already we have seen a broadening of the discussion (i.e., is honorspren a genus or a species, so to speak). 

 

I was not trying to upset any apple-carts but only to allow for a shift in our thinking.  I think we have been getting to focused on a somewhat narrow interpretation.  That being said, I personally believe that many of things discussed will prove to be accurate.

[skaa he/him]

For clarification I believe that Syl is the way she is because she is a splinter of Honor or Cultivation. I can see it both ways. In a number of posts I have directly ascribed her to Honor. I'm not saying that we are wrong when we ascribe her to Honor.

Ah. I'm sorry if I didn't understand at first, Shardlet. I see that you were just trying to be open-minded about Syl's true nature.

In the same interview I linked to, Brandon also said that "you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation." The wording leaves room for exceptions, but I think it implies that the Shard/s a spren is aligned to should usually be easy to spot. Their names are the easiest clues, in my opinion. So, Honor's spren would be named after virtues (and possibly achievements, which is another definition for "honor"), Cultivation's spren would be named after concepts related to life and growth, and the rest would be a mixture of the two (unless there's an outlier spren that is of Odium).

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet he/him]

I suspect that Syl is at least more Honor.  Spren that are obviously, to me, more Cultivation would be the spren which bod to the greatshells enabling them to grow to larger sizes than would be normally physically possible (i.e., chasmfiends,

reshi islands

, etc.).

[Shardlet he/him]

EDIT: Crapflapnasty!, this post was supposed to go in as an edit to the previous post, not a double post.  Sorry.  

 

I suspect that Syl is at least more Honor.  Spren that are obviously, to me, more Cultivation would be the spren which bod to the greatshells enabling them to grow to larger sizes than would be normally physically possible (i.e., chasmfiends,

reshi islands

, etc.).

 

Edit: The above examples are only referring to spren that act to cause an actual effect rather than simply a manifestation.  

 

In the "Writing for Charity" thread, link provided courtesy of Skaa (see above), Brandon says: 

Brandon: So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

 

So it appears that spren, whether they are acting spren or just manifesting spren, are all of Honor or Cultivation.  Though, perhaps some notable spren, which will be seen by Dalinar in WoR, have been corrupted by Odium.  It also appears that the spren communicate and debate with one another (factions?).  It also seems that honorspren is not a cut and dry designation and several varying types of spren see themselves as 'honorspren' in contrast to other spren.  I think this weakens the idea that there is an absolute standard (at least functionally for spren bonding) for what 'honor' means

Edited June 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kurkistan he/him]

I don't think dissension among the ranks necessarily means that no standard exists.
 
Just as a quick example of how such a divide may occur in a world with an absolute standard to refer to, I give you Splinters of Devotion.
 
Now we know that Splinters have their own Intents, which Intents some have theorized are some sub-category of their parent Shard's Intent. If this is the case, then Devotion might split into several different Intents: Love (of various types), faith, and loyalty all spring to mind as separate Intents that could resonably be slotted under "Devotion". But you also get obsession, jealousy, and zealotry. On a darker view, these also slot under Devotion.
 
But you could have a real argument over which of these sub-Intents is really "of Devotion", is really a proper--if limited--expression of Devotion's full Intent.
 
For Honor, then, you can get things like Loyalty, Integrity, Oathkeeping, various expressions of Chivalry, etc. You don't even really have to start coming up with antonyms to know that even "Lawful Good" can result in tragedy, let alone "Lawful Evil" or "Lawful Neutral". And so the debate.
 
Also, I'm not sure from that quote that spren actually argue amongst themselves. While that's the first read of "dissention among them", Brandon could have just been speaking imprecisely and been referring to scholars. Either way, arguments can still reasonably be had.

[Meg]

EDIT: Crapflapnasty!, this post was supposed to go in as an edit to the previous post, not a double post.  Sorry.  

 

I suspect that Syl is at least more Honor.  Spren that are obviously, to me, more Cultivation would be the spren which bod to the greatshells enabling them to grow to larger sizes than would be normally physically possible (i.e., chasmfiends,

reshi islands

, etc.).

 

Edit: The above examples are only referring to spren that act to cause an actual effect rather than simply a manifestation.  

 

In the "Writing for Charity" thread, link provided courtesy of Skaa (see above), Brandon says: 

 

 

 

 

4. Zas: A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called Honorspren, and then Nohaden talks specifically about Honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

.

Brandon: I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

.

Brandon: So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

.

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an (honorspren?)".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

.

So it appears that spren, whether they are acting spren or just manifesting spren, are all of Honor or Cultivation.  Though, perhaps some notable spren, which will be seen by Dalinar in WoR, have been corrupted by Odium.  It also appears that the spren communicate and debate with one another (factions?).  It also seems that honorspren is not a cut and dry designation and several varying types of spren see themselves as 'honorspren' in contrast to other spren.  I think this weakens the idea that there is an absolute standard (at least functionally for spren bonding) for what 'honor' means

(The italized part I included hoping it fits; the bolded parts are for markings.)

 

I've added the beginning of that question to the quote within the quote.  

 

Brandon said that the spren "you are running into" (you == the readers/listeners? I can't see others that may "run into spren" and are addressed by BS that way). That leaves a vacant space for possible "Odium-spren" to fit in.

 

I'd say Nohadon defines an honorspren similar to our ideas (spren binding to honorable persons, to make a very raw description). But there had been other spren, able to "Nahel-bond" that hadn't been so discerning with choosing their "partner" like said honorspren (for example binding to Yelig-Nar (kind of a foe) or Alakavesh (who went astray when fighting other kingdoms instead of preparing to be ready for Desolations). 

 

 

 

PS @ Shardlet  

Between the multiquote-butto and the edit-button is one called "hide". You can use it to "hide" double-postings or ones you want to disappear. They will not be deleted but only visible for the admins/mods then.