Spoilers!!! A new highprince

[Brgst13]

My offbeat thought: there is someone out there already haging a number of followers and a claim of kingship. He also has support from the radiants. What about Highline Lopen?

[hoser]

One does not simply just execute someone without proper trial while trying to convince everyone else to obey the monarchy.

 

 

Yeah... I'm with natc. Amaram is still lighteyed. I would be very surprised if Dalinar could legally just kill him, or even demand the forfeit of his Blade, without something approaching due process. If they'd had even a few more hours, that might be something different, but they had to leave right away.

 

The question then is, why not hold this confrontation two days earlier when there could have been a trial?

My point is this.  It is not an execution.  It is either an arrest or suicide by police. 

 

Dalinar certainly has the authority and responsibility as Highprince to arrest and disarm a murderer.  Amaram has pulled a Shardblade, the local equivalent of a gun.  Dalinar offers him the choice: turn over your weapon or die.  If he refuses to turn over the weapon, it creates an emergency that Amaram's death neatly solves. 

Letting the murderer go free with the means for mass murder makes no sense and is without honor.  If Amaram wants a trial, he just turns over the Shardblade and, if he is exonerated, they can put a new gem in it and return it to him. 

Given that there are many witnesses to his confession, the trial is a moot point and the local equivalent of an inquest could certainly show that Dalinar killing him was justified.  Arresting a murderer is as honorable as it gets. If he won't go peacefully, there is no dishonor in protecting people from whatever Amaram plans next. 

 

...

As for Kaladin becoming a Highprince, plain no. Kaladin is a darkeyes and whether his eyes turned blue for a few hours, he still is low ranked. Alright, he is a Radiant, but most people hate Radiants and they fear them. No way are the princedoms going to support his nomination, but it is beyond the point: he is not a Brightlord. There is a world still between Kaladin and the higher ranked individuals. I think we should be careful in putting too much power into the title of Radiants. The world distrusts them, how is it this sentient is supposed to evaporate within a few days because one of them is Kaladin Stormblessed? Anyway, Kaladin does not even the slightest idea of how to run a princedom... 

At this point, Kaladin is not a candidate for Highprince.  If he plays a visibly heroic role in Hearthstone and then Kholinar, the capital, he could be the logical candidate.  Whether he would accept it is another story.  He can be a lighteyes at will. 

 

The Radiants are disliked by the ardentia, but popularly, there is a lot of sympathy (see Teft, for example).  Recent glorious exploits will carry much more weight than semi-mythical stories.  Let's see now:  who would likely have the most important voice in the discussion?  Elhokar, you say?  The king who he just saved and admires his leadership.  Hatham, the leader of the largest faction of highprinces and himself chosen by Ryshadium could easily go along.  Sadeas might have a problem with it, but he's discredited, a proven fool and dead besides. 

 

As a Radiant, Kaladin is what lighteyes aspire to be.  Depending on events and the role he plays, the frightened people of Alethkar may soon see his official status as a pale insignificant shadow of his real rank and power.  Changing his official caste is the work of a moment, if he proves worthy. 

 

This is all contingent upon him being visibly and effectively heroic. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by hoser

[maxal]

My point is this.  It is not an execution.  It is either an arrest or suicide by police. 

 

Dalinar certainly has the authority and responsibility as Highprince to arrest and disarm a murderer.  Amaram has pulled a Shardblade, the local equivalent of a gun.  Dalinar offers him the choice: turn over your weapon or die.  If he refuses to turn over the weapon, it creates an emergency that Amaram's death neatly solves. 

Letting the murderer go free with the means for mass murder makes no sense and is without honor.  If Amaram wants a trial, he just turns over the Shardblade and, if he is exonerated, they can put a new gem in it and return it to him. 

Given that there are many witnesses to his confession, the trial is a moot point and the local equivalent of an inquest could certainly show that Dalinar killing him was justified.  Arresting a murderer is as honorable as it gets. If he won't go peacefully, there is no dishonor in protecting people from whatever Amaram plans next. 

 

This is not how Alethi politics go. If I follow your logic, Dalinar could have killed Sadeas for the very same reasons, but he clearly couldn't. Clearly, letting Sadeas walk free was more honorable than killing him. Most people agress Adolin did bad by killing him and acted dishonorably, so how is it Dalinar doing the same thing to Amaram whom is guitly of much less suddenly honorable?

 

I just can't reconciled how killing Amaram without a fair trial is honorable, but killing Sadeas was not. That does not fit. If Dalinar was entitled to kill Amaram right there, then he is guilty of having let the threat that was Sadeas walk free: he should have made his head roll weeks ago.

 

 

At this point, Kaladin is not a candidate for Highprince.  If he plays a visibly heroic role in Hearthstone and then Kholinar, the capital, he could be the logical candidate.  Whether he would accept it is another story.  He can be a lighteyes at will. 

 

The Radiants are disliked by the ardentia, but popularly, there is a lot of sympathy (see Teft, for example).  Recent glorious exploits will carry much more weight than semi-mythical stories.  Let's see now:  who would likely have the most important voice in the discussion?  Elhokar, you say?  The king who he just saved and admires his leadership.  Hatham, the leader of the largest faction of highprinces and himself chosen by Ryshadium could easily go along.  Sadeas might have a problem with it, but he's discredited, a proven fool and dead besides. 

 

As a Radiant, Kaladin is what lighteyes aspire to be.  Depending on events and the role he plays, the frightened people of Alethkar may soon see his official status as a pale insignificant shadow of his real rank and power.  Changing his official caste is the work of a moment, if he proves worthy. 

 

This is all contingent upon him being visibly and effectively heroic. 

 

No just the Ardentia, the people. Remember how much distrust there was when Dalinar tried to refund the Radiants? Even Adolin was not comfortable with it and he did see them in a favorable light. Teft is a bad example as he grew up in a sect whorshipping them. 

 

To be a logical candidate, I feel Kaladin would first need to be a Brightlord with lands of his own and prove himself apt at ruling them. Let's not forget, Kaladin may be a good leader for a squad of men, but he has no clue as to how to rule an estate. He would bite into bigger than himself. Being a lighteyed on command is not equivalent to being a landlord. You need to achieve a certain status before aspiring to being a Highprince and lighteyed is only one step, unless the whole system falls appart, but I doubt this will happen in a forthnight. Look at our own history, revolutions take time, when they work at all.

 

His exploits are not going to suddenly erase hundred of years of people being told to fear the Radiants. It is not how it works. People do not change willingly, people will keep their position even after they are proven wrong. 

 

Hatham having a Ryshadium irrevalent. Brandon stated Ryshadium were not exclusive to the Radiants. It thus means nothing. 

[Oudeis]

All Amaram would have had to do would be to dismiss the Shardblade. Now he's no imminent threat. First, Dalinar would not kill an unarmed man in those circumstances. Second, it's unlikely Alethkar has the kind of laws that would allow you to kill an unarmed man in those circumstances. If the cops in America see a criminal, and he has a gun, but he puts it in his holster, they are not allowed to shoot him just because he can draw his weapon again.

 

Well, except for Florida. Storming Florida.

 

 

As for Kaladin becoming a Highprince, plain no. 

 

... Amaram has fled Alethkar in disgrace and defeat after stealing an insane man, and you still think he'd make a logical Highprince, but Kaladin is where you say no?

 

First of all, from the end of Words of Radiance, his eyes are permanently light now. When Moash's eyes turned light, he was allowed to own land. Kaladin killed the Assassin in White, the man who killed Gavilar. (Even in the new ending where he didn't deal the blow, as far as the Alethi nobility are concerned, he killed Szeth.) He's a Radiant. He's a war hero. Also from Dalinar has been refounding the Knights Radiant and it was going over... okay, not amazingly, but pretty decently in Alethkar. Having an actual Radiant show up will only solidify that.

 

Frankly, if Sadeas doesn't have an heir, I'm starting to wonder if it won't at least be offered to Kaladin. He doesn't personally have to run the entire Highprincedom. For years, Sadeas has been here, mostly running nothing more than his own army, bureaucrats back home taking care of his lands following his broad instructions. Kaladin could do most of that pretty easily, with perhaps more help from his lieutenants than Torol needed.

 

Since we have precedent for the death of a Highprince and the award of his lands to a supporter of the King, I can think of no one more qualified than Elhokar's savior, bodyguard, personal favorite, and now new Radiant, with eyes so light they glow.

[maxal]

... Amaram has fled Alethkar in disgrace and defeat after stealing an insane man, and you still think he'd make a logical Highprince, but Kaladin is where you say no?

 

First of all, from the end of Words of Radiance, his eyes are permanently light now. When Moash's eyes turned light, he was allowed to own land. Kaladin killed the Assassin in White, the man who killed Gavilar. (Even in the new ending where he didn't deal the blow, as far as the Alethi nobility are concerned, he killed Szeth.) He's a Radiant. He's a war hero. Also from Dalinar has been refounding the Knights Radiant and it was going over... okay, not amazingly, but pretty decently in Alethkar. Having an actual Radiant show up will only solidify that.

 

Frankly, if Sadeas doesn't have an heir, I'm starting to wonder if it won't at least be offered to Kaladin. He doesn't personally have to run the entire Highprincedom. For years, Sadeas has been here, mostly running nothing more than his own army, bureaucrats back home taking care of his lands following his broad instructions. Kaladin could do most of that pretty easily, with perhaps more help from his lieutenants than Torol needed.

 

Since we have precedent for the death of a Highprince and the award of his lands to a supporter of the King, I can think of no one more qualified than Elhokar's savior, bodyguard, personal favorite, and now new Radiant, with eyes so light they glow.

 

Correction, his eyes are not permanently light: they went back to dark after a few hours. We have no way of knowing if the change will ever be permanent. 

 

The reason I believe Amaram is more logical choice is simple: Amaram is a member of the high ranked lighteyes society and he is a land lord. Moash was not offered lands: he was offered to join one of the houses following Dalinar or to found his own, but it was never mentioned he would become a land lord right away. Perhaps in due time, but not now.

 

Sure, Amaram's reputation suffered quite a bit, but the Alethi do not seem to care about these things. Sadeas is a treacherous murderer and everyone was fine with him remaining in his seat, why is there they should react more badly with Amaram? Truth is, we have no idea how the other Highprinces are truly viewing Amaram now, but based on how they have been behaving in the past, I would not be surprised if it didn't matter so much to them. Again, this is not a rock-proof theory. These are simply thoughts. I am not convinced the Highprinces would disregard Amaram as much as you seem to believe they would based on the accusations at hand. I am also not convinced everyone will cheerfully ranked themselves behind the new Radiants, celebrate Kaladin for the heroic man we know he is and all clap their hands together as they give him a princedom. The more powerful Kaladin will get, the more enemies he will get as for the princedom, this is one step too far right now.

 

It could be you are entirely right and Amaram's reputation is indeed ruined, but Alethi society is so weird when it comes to justice, I would not be surprised if they disregarded it.

 

As for the rest of your post, don't you think it is rather diminishing to imply anyone without any prior training could take over the job of a Highprince? Kaladin does not even begin to understand how the lighteyes world is geared, how is he supposed to figure out how to run an entire princedom? Scribes you say, lieutenants? So you mean he will have nothing to do, let everyone do everything in his place without having the slightest clue of what is going on? Dalinar just spent years training Adolin for this very position, but you claim Kaladin could simply walk-in and do a decent job simply because he is a Radiant? I disagree. Kaladin could earn the right to become a land lord by the end of book 3, but a Highprince, that's overstepping it. He need to learn how to rule before being asked to take over an kingdom: ruling and leadership are two different things.

Edited July 30, 2015 by maxal

[hoser]

This is not how Alethi politics go. If I follow your logic, Dalinar could have killed Sadeas for the very same reasons, but he clearly couldn't. Clearly, letting Sadeas walk free was more honorable than killing him. Most people agress Adolin did bad by killing him and acted dishonorably, so how is it Dalinar doing the same thing to Amaram whom is guitly of much less suddenly honorable?

 

I just can't reconciled how killing Amaram without a fair trial is honorable, but killing Sadeas was not. That does not fit. If Dalinar was entitled to kill Amaram right there, then he is guilty of having let the threat that was Sadeas walk free: he should have made his head roll weeks ago.

 

Dalinar allowed Sadeas to survive for merely pragmatic reasons.  He knew his forces were too weak to prevail and a civil war would split the country.  He planned to deal with Sadeas when he could.  It had nothing to do with honor, but rather situational constraints.

 

No just the Ardentia, the people. Remember how much distrust there was when Dalinar tried to refund the Radiants? Even Adolin was not comfortable with it and he did see them in a favorable light. Teft is a bad example as he grew up in a sect whorshipping them. 

 

Actually, I don't remember any significant issues when Dalinar tried to refound the Radiants.  Bridge Four never had a significant problem with them either.  There are sects dedicated to bringing them back.  And that was before the discovery of Urithiru (which the ardentia denied the existence of), the Everstorm and the return of the Voidbringers.  Now, the public is likely terrified and looking for any hope.  If Kaladin visibly saves the day in Hearthstone and then Kholinar, any paper-thin prejudices based on semi-mythical stories are likely to be swept away.

 

To be a logical candidate, I feel Kaladin would first need to be a Brightlord with lands of his own and prove himself apt at ruling them. Let's not forget, Kaladin may be a good leader for a squad of men, but he has no clue as to how to rule an estate. He would bite into bigger than himself. Being a lighteyed on command is not equivalent to being a landlord. You need to achieve a certain status before aspiring to being a Highprince and lighteyed is only one step, unless the whole system falls appart, but I doubt this will happen in a forthnight. Look at our own history, revolutions take time, when they work at all.

 

Kaladin doesn't need to rule the Princedom by himself.  Dalinar  or Elhokar can give him lands.  He can make his eyes light whenever he wants.  All I am saying is that he would be a logical candidate.  Whether he might make some mistakes in his first few years is an entirely separate question.  Honestly, he could hardly do worse than Sadeas.  

 

His exploits are not going to suddenly erase hundred of years of people being told to fear the Radiants. It is not how it works. People do not change willingly, people will keep their position even after they are proven wrong. 

 

There is a time when people will change opinions quickly: in a crisis.  When deeply afraid with their only hope lying in their ideas changing, people can and will change their thinking quickly.  Needless to say, that is the exact situation.  Consider Hoid's final conversation w/Jasnah and Dalinar's w/Shallan if you don't think the situation is desperate. 

 

Hatham having a Ryshadium irrevalent. Brandon stated Ryshadium were not exclusive to the Radiants. It thus means nothing. 

 

Both the Rhyshadium and the peaceful leadership role he played among the Highprinces are signs that he has some virtue.  These are not nothing.  The Rhyshadium could still choose the most virtuous people, even if they didn't all become Radiants.  So far, their favor has been significant.  I don't get how you can call that nothing.  Now if Sadeas or Amaram had had a Rhyshadium, you might be able to reasonably say that. 

 

 

All Amaram would have had to do would be to dismiss the Shardblade. Now he's no imminent threat. First, Dalinar would not kill an unarmed man in those circumstances. Second, it's unlikely Alethkar has the kind of laws that would allow you to kill an unarmed man in those circumstances. If the cops in America see a criminal, and he has a gun, but he puts it in his holster, they are not allowed to shoot him just because he can draw his weapon again.

 

Well, except for Florida. Storming Florida.

 

If I pull a gun on the police, I'm dead.  Period.  In a feudal system such as Alethkar, there is no real independant judiciary (just ask Moash), so pulling a Shardblade on a Highprince is like threatening a judicial officer.  If I'm allowed to drop my weapon without being killed, I may survive.  I am never reholstering it and walking away with it.  If I wasn't already a criminal, I am now.  I will be disarmed and arrested.  If I resist arrest and represent a deadly threat, I will be killed. 

If I start out as a murderer, I am less likely to survive.  It is a crime for criminals to possess weapons. 

Amaram with a Shardblade is never an unarmed man.  Letting him go free as a confessed and unrepentant murderer with a weapon of mass destruction is just wrong by any moral code.

 

... Amaram has fled Alethkar in disgrace and defeat after stealing an insane man, and you still think he'd make a logical Highprince, but Kaladin is where you say no?

 

First of all, from the end of Words of Radiance, his eyes are permanently light now. When Moash's eyes turned light, he was allowed to own land. Kaladin killed the Assassin in White, the man who killed Gavilar. (Even in the new ending where he didn't deal the blow, as far as the Alethi nobility are concerned, he killed Szeth.) He's a Radiant. He's a war hero. Also from Dalinar has been refounding the Knights Radiant and it was going over... okay, not amazingly, but pretty decently in Alethkar. Having an actual Radiant show up will only solidify that.

 

Frankly, if Sadeas doesn't have an heir, I'm starting to wonder if it won't at least be offered to Kaladin. He doesn't personally have to run the entire Highprincedom. For years, Sadeas has been here, mostly running nothing more than his own army, bureaucrats back home taking care of his lands following his broad instructions. Kaladin could do most of that pretty easily, with perhaps more help from his lieutenants than Torol needed.

 

Since we have precedent for the death of a Highprince and the award of his lands to a supporter of the King, I can think of no one more qualified than Elhokar's savior, bodyguard, personal favorite, and now new Radiant, with eyes so light they glow.

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

 

Correction, his eyes are not permanently light: they went back to dark after a few hours. We have no way of knowing if the change will ever be permanent. 

 

The reason I believe Amaram is more logical choice is simple: Amaram is a member of the high ranked lighteyes society and he is a land lord.

 

Okay, this makes sense.  You are defending your preference for Amaram.  I can see a case for Amaram.  I can also see a case for Kaladin, particularly if he performs heroically in Hearthstone and Kholinar.  All I said was "I could imagine Kaladin having support to become Highprince ..."  I didn't realize that thinking of multiple possible outcomes would be so threatening. 

 

Moash was not offered lands: he was offered to join one of the houses following Dalinar or to found his own, but it was never mentioned he would become a land lord right away. 

 

I believe Moash was given lands and income by Dalinar immediately.  I would be grateful if someone could find the quote.

 

Sure, Amaram's reputation suffered quite a bit, but the Alethi do not seem to care about these things. Sadeas is a treacherous murderer and everyone was FINE with him remaining in his seat, why is there they should react more badly because of Amaram? Truth is, we have no idea how the other Highprinces are truly viewing Amaram now, but based on how they have been behaving in the past, I would not be surprised if it didn't matter so much to them. Again, this is not a rock-proof theory. These are simply thoughts. I am not convinced the Highprinces would disregard Amaram as much as you seem to believe they would based on the accusations at hand. I am also not convinced everyone will cheerfully ranked themselves behind the new Radiants, celebrate Kaladin for the heroic man we know he is and all clap their hands together as they give him a princedom. The more powerful Kaladin will get, the more enemies he will get as for the princedom, this is one step too far right now.

 

With the Everstorm, the riots and the Voidbringers, I suspect that people will be looking for strong leadership above all.  If he performs well, Kaladin will be known as such in Alethkar.  A long record of peacetime and nondescript bureaucratic competence will not be that appealing in this crisis.  Consider the qualifications of the new Azish emperor.  The Azish are much more bureaucratic than the Alethi.

What was Amaram doing when the Voidbringers were being fought, the king attacked, the Assassin in White defeated, Urithiru being discovered?  Murdering his own men, attempting to steal Shardblades and kidnapping madmen/Heralds, that's what.   

 

As for the rest of your post, don't you think it is rather diminishing to imply anyone without any prior training could take over the job of a Highprince? Kaladin does not even begin to understand how the lighteyes world is geared, how is he supposed to figure out how to run an entire princedom? Scribes you say, lieutenants? So you mean he will have nothing to do, let everyone do everything in his place without having the slightest clue of what is going on? Dalinar just spent years training Adolin for this very position, but you claim Kaladin could simply walk-in and do a decent job simply because he is a Radiant? I disagree. Kaladin could earn the right to become a land lord by the end of book 3, but a Highprince, that's overstepping it.

 

Once again, being considered for a position is not the same as getting it or being immediately perfect at it.  I have no doubt that Kaladin would be a better king than Elhokar on day one and would only get better. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by hoser

[Arook]

Why would Amaram super seed Torol Sadeas' children. I could see him taking the lead but I do not think he would become the high prince.

[hoser]

Why would Amaram super seed Torol Sadeas' children. I could see him taking the lead but I do not think he would become the high prince.

Does Sadeas even have children?  When Sadeas killed Aladar's predecessor, the predecessor got replaced by Aladar who was an ally of Sadeas, Dalinar and Gavilar.  So the Highprince succession is not strictly within the same house.

[Carcinios]

I'm pretty sure that since saying the second windrunner oath in WOR Kaladin is now a lighteyes. I don't have the book with me to quote but there is a bit at the end when he notes that his eyes are now very pale blue and he is disappointed because he had hoped they would not change. Now he has a blade he is lighteyed.

[Oudeis]

Maxal: Please list what a spoiler is for, especially if you're spoiling something like a pre-release chapter. Spoiling the first Mistborn book in this thread is one thing, but that's something that hasn't even come out yet. I am trying to avoid reading anything about SA3 before it comes out. Putting up "spoiler" doesn't help much if you don't tell me what it is you're spoiling.

[maxal]

Maxal: Please list what a spoiler is for, especially if you're spoiling something like a pre-release chapter. Spoiling the first Mistborn book in this thread is one thing, but that's something that hasn't even come out yet. I am trying to avoid reading anything about SA3 before it comes out. Putting up "spoiler" doesn't help much if you don't tell me what it is you're spoiling.

 

Oudeis, I am sorry. I had seen this being brought up so often on these forum pages, I thought it no longer was a spoiler. I corrected myself a few minutes later when I edited the post, but I did not think to put on a tag. I apologize for this: it was a mistake. I will be more careful in the future.

 

Hoser, I will reply in a general manner to your post as the quote engine does not work well with it.

 

Dalinar and Sadeas

 

You are right in stating Dalinar voluntarily let Sadeas roam free to avoid a civil war and he did promise to deal with him later, but he never considered outright killing him. It was either he positioned himself against him and goes at war or he let it go and wait for another opportunity. Even if Dalinar had agreed civil war was the best course of action, I still doubt he would have simply kill Sadeas: he would have denounce him publicly and let justice run its course because this is the avenue Dalinar now follows. It had to do with honor, because as explained later on by Adolin, the Alethi laws are written in a way Sadeas is allowed to actually get away with his betrayal. In the eyes of the Highprinces, Sadeas is not a criminal, so killing him is dishonorable. A very twisted way to see things, I agree, but it seems this is how the Alethi politics go.

 

I thus see no reason why he should have behave differently with Amaram and he did promise Kaladin he would deal with him, later. Killing Amaram, right now, would violate every single piece of honor Dalinar claims to now be standing for. To be honorable, he needs to walk in by the proper channels in order to formally accuse Amaram.

 

Kaladin and Amaram

 

First of, this is not a war between the two, but the fact is I do not believe Kaladin is ready to rule over a princedom yet and based on what we have seen of him, so far, he would do a horrible job at it. Why? Because he does not understand the world he would be about to rule. I sincerely disagree Dalinar would support Kaladin's nomination for such a high office as Dalinar believes in training and upbringing. He took a wager when he gave Kaladin the charge of a 1000 men and he admitted it himself. Kaladin proved reliable, but there is world between running a squad and a princedom. He just spent a near decade getting his own son ready to occupy this position and you believe he would support a new inexperienced comer simply by virtue of him being a hero? Being a hero in one thing, running things is another. So far, Kaladin has been inspiring and heroic, but I have yet to see him display any administrative notions such a position would require.

 

I found baffling to think people believe running a princedom require the Highprince to do.... nothing. That untrained Kaladin could simply take over and do better than those having prior experience is bewildering. The fact is we do not know how good of a Highprince Sadeas was. He was awful with his soldiers, but on the administrative side, was the princedom well run? We do not know, but he paid his taxes in time. Kaladin would do worst than make a few mistakes, he may end up declaring open war to another princedom simply by not knowing the codes by which lighteyes evolve...

 

I guess I am simply unable to picture Kaladin in such an office right now nor can I envision anyone seriously supporting him, but I could be wrong about it. I see it as more likely those in charge of electing the new Highprince would turn a blind eye on the accusation made towards Amaram than choosing a heroic former slave not turned Radiant.

 

I did not mean to be antagonist though, so sorry if it came out this way.

[hoser]

...

 

Dalinar and Sadeas

 

You are right in stating Dalinar voluntarily let Sadeas roam free to avoid a civil war and he did promise to deal with him later, but he never considered outright killing him. It was either he positioned himself against him and goes at war or he let it go and wait for another opportunity. Even if Dalinar had agreed civil war was the best course of action, I still doubt he would have simply kill Sadeas: he would have denounce him publicly and let justice run its course because this is the avenue Dalinar now follows. It had to do with honor, because as explained later on by Adolin, the Alethi laws are written in a way Sadeas is allowed to actually get away with his betrayal. In the eyes of the Highprinces, Sadeas is not a criminal, so killing him is dishonorable. A very twisted way to see things, I agree, but it seems this is how the Alethi politics go.

 

I thus see no reason why he should have behave differently with Amaram and he did promise Kaladin he would deal with him, later. Killing Amaram, right now, would violate every single piece of honor Dalinar claims to now be standing for. To be honorable, he needs to walk in by the proper channels in order to formally accuse Amaram.

The two situations are not comparable.  In one Dalinar has no power to arrest or kill Sadeas: all he can do is get the remains of his army killed and cause a civil war.  In the other, Dalinar has the power to arrest or kill Amaram with no real consequence.  As the great philosopher Ben Parker would say: "with great power comes great responsibility." 

The external factors that constrained Dalinar from attacking and killing Sadeas are not a matter of honor, but practicalities that do not apply to the situation with Amaram. 

With Amaram, the honorable thing to do was to confront him.  After the confession, Amaram needs to be disarmed and arrested.  If Amaram will not go peacefully at any point, there will be bloodshed, but the stain from that would lie on Amaram. 

 

...

Kaladin and Amaram

 

First of, this is not a war between the two, but the fact is I do not believe Kaladin is ready to rule over a princedom yet and based on what we have seen of him, so far, he would do a horrible job at it. Why? Because he does not understand the world he would be about to rule. I sincerely disagree Dalinar would support Kaladin's nomination for such a high office as Dalinar believes in training and upbringing. He took a wager when he gave Kaladin the charge of a 1000 men and he admitted it himself. Kaladin proved reliable, but there is world between running a squad and a princedom. He just spent a near decade getting his own son ready to occupy this position and you believe he would support a new inexperienced comer simply by virtue of him being a hero? Being a hero in one thing, running things is another. So far, Kaladin has been inspiring and heroic, but I have yet to see him display any administrative notions such a position would require.

 

I found baffling to think people believe running a princedom require the Highprince to do.... nothing. That untrained Kaladin could simply take over and do better than those having prior experience is bewildering. The fact is we do not know how good of a Highprince Sadeas was. He was awful with his soldiers, but on the administrative side, was the princedom well run? We do not know, but he paid his taxes in time. Kaladin would do worst than make a few mistakes, he may end up declaring open war to another princedom simply by not knowing the codes by which lighteyes evolve...

I am sorry to break it to you, but people choose leaders based on "leadership," not experience. Ronald Reagan was an actor, but got elected governer of the largest state of the USA.  Senators run for president of the United States, not only governers.  In Roshar, a juvenile thief was chosen to lead the Azish empire.  Leaders choose administrators to administrate after they are chosen. 

 

...

I guess I am simply unable to picture Kaladin in such an office right now nor can I envision anyone seriously supporting him, but I could be wrong about it. I see it as more likely those in charge of electing the new Highprince would turn a blind eye on the accusation made towards Amaram than choosing a heroic former slave not turned Radiant.

 

I did not mean to be antagonist though, so sorry if it came out this way.

Sure.  You can't picture it.  I can.  With both our opinions and $5, we can get a coffee-flavored milkshake at Starbucks    .  The cool thing is that Brandon will write something more interesting than either of our imaginings. 

 

I did not mean to suggest that you were being antagonistic.  It just looked to me as if you were ruling out Kaladin to defend your support of Amaram.  But I could be wrong about that, so I'm stopping now ...

[maxal]

The two situations are not comparable.  In one Dalinar has no power to arrest or kill Sadeas: all he can do is get the remains of his army killed and cause a civil war.  In the other, Dalinar has the power to arrest or kill Amaram with no real consequence.  As the great philosopher Ben Parker would say: "with great power comes great responsibility." 

The external factors that constrained Dalinar from attacking and killing Sadeas are not a matter of honor, but practicalities that do not apply to the situation with Amaram. 

With Amaram, the honorable thing to do was to confront him.  After the confession, Amaram needs to be disarmed and arrested.  If Amaram will not go peacefully at any point, there will be bloodshed, but the stain from that would lie on Amaram. 

 

Dalinar could have challenged Sadeas to a duel... Adolin can't because he is out of his reached, but Dalinar can. He could have sent assassins to deal with him in private: there are other ways Dalinar could have used to deal with Sadeas, but status quo. He chose to do practically nothing. What was Dalinar grant plan? Have his son duel every single Shardbearers and disarm them such as to re-assert his house's power. A dangerous ploy: back in WoK, he was glad Adolin was dueling till only one broken piece of plate as more was too dangerous. Now, he is willing to use the boy as leverage against the other Highprinces in a dueling spree which Navani disagreed with. In other words, Dalinar decided to play the game everyone else has been playing. I do not blame him, but it is false to think this was his only alternative. 

 

Amaram, I am unsure if killing him right now would be considered acceptable. I am unsure if Dalinar truly have jurisdiction to behave this way even if Amaram summoned his Blade. Perhaps you are right and he could/should have. I tend to believe he acted right in letting him go with the promise of later accusations. However, Dalinar made it clear they do not disarm Shardbearers: they execute them. So there. Asking for his weapons would no have worked. Why he confronted him at a time where he was not ready to deal with him? I do not know. It is true letting Amaram walk free after accusing him open rooms for him to replicate or just run away. So why not wait a bit longer? I gues it was to buy Kaladin's fealty, but still.... Anyway, the whole Amaram plot was not greatly employed in my opinion as I still fail to see how Amaram stealing Taln's Blade makes him guilty of stealing Kaladin's.... He could just have kept on denying it: the two events are uncorrelated. Anyway.

 

 

 

I am sorry to break it to you, but people choose leaders based on "leadership," not experience. Ronald Reagan was an actor, but got elected governer of the largest state of the USA.  Senators run for president of the United States, not only governers.  In Roshar, a juvenile thief was chosen to lead the Azish empire.  Leaders choose administrators to administrate after they are chosen. 

 

In our modern world we tend to value leadership over experience, especially nowadays, but we are not talking about our world, we are talking about Alethkar. In Alethkar, birth right decides the fate of people, not their capacities or their leaderships, but it does not change the fact someone brought up to rule a princedom one day is more aware to the task at hand than Kaladin who doesn't understand the basis of the social conventions around the lighteyes.

 

I also have yet to see Kaladin's leadership being applied to rule estates. He is a good leader of men, an inspiring figure which pulls the best out of people, but running lands is just not the same thing. You need more than leadership to be a good administrator and I have yet to see this in Kaladin. All I have seen so far is a man who does brilliantly with small group of people and small scale organisation, but has repetitively failed to see the bigger picture.  Until he corrects this flaw and learns to see beyond the tiny group of people he has decided he needs to protect, I would say he is not ready for the big office.

 

 

Sure.  You can't picture it.  I can.  With both our opinions and $5, we can get a coffee-flavored milkshake at Starbucks    .  The cool thing is that Brandon will write something more interesting than either of our imaginings. 

 

I did not mean to suggest that you were being antagonistic.  It just looked to me as if you were ruling out Kaladin to defend your support of Amaram.  But I could be wrong about that, so I'm stopping now ...

 

Oh no. I am not ruling out Kaladin to support Amaram (anyway I hate Amaram, but I think he could make an interesting antagonist). As I said, the Amaram "theory" if we shall call it such, hardly is one I would ready to tear my shirt over even if it may have looked like it. It was an idea I launched because I thought it would be interesting and the state of Alethi politics leads me to believe it may happen. 

 

Kaladin is as I said: not ready, in my opinion. Too many bridges to cross to get there. I never ruled out the option he may get there someday, but it would be a tad far-fetched for Brandon to bring this up in the next book. Just my two cents, but you are absolutely right: whatever it is, Brandon will come up with a much better ploy than anything we can come up with. Though, with the number of speculations I have made for book 3, there has to be, statistically, one or two places where I have gotten it right. My choice for being right certainly isn't anything to do with Amaram 

 

Milkshake huh? I am a hazelnut flavored coffee kinda of girl to the utter dismay of everyone else claiming I do not drink "real" coffee 

[hoser]

Dalinar could have challenged Sadeas to a duel... Adolin can't because he is out of his reached, but Dalinar can. He could have sent assassins to deal with him in private: there are other ways Dalinar could have used to deal with Sadeas, but status quo. He chose to do practically nothing. What was Dalinar grant plan? Have his son duel every single Shardbearers and disarm them such as to re-assert his house's power. A dangerous ploy: back in WoK, he was glad Adolin was dueling till only one broken piece of plate as more was too dangerous. Now, he is willing to use the boy as leverage against the other Highprinces in a dueling spree which Navani disagreed with. In other words, Dalinar decided to play the game everyone else has been playing. I do not blame him, but it is false to think this was his only alternative. 

 

Amaram, I am unsure if killing him right now would be considered acceptable. I am unsure if Dalinar truly have jurisdiction to behave this way even if Amaram summoned his Blade. Perhaps you are right and he could/should have. I tend to believe he acted right in letting him go with the promise of later accusations. However, Dalinar made it clear they do not disarm Shardbearers: they execute them. So there. Asking for his weapons would no have worked. Why he confronted him at a time where he was not ready to deal with him? I do not know. It is true letting Amaram walk free after accusing him open rooms for him to replicate or just run away. So why not wait a bit longer? I gues it was to buy Kaladin's fealty, but still.... Anyway, the whole Amaram plot was not greatly employed in my opinion as I still fail to see how Amaram stealing Taln's Blade makes him guilty of stealing Kaladin's.... He could just have kept on denying it: the two events are uncorrelated. Anyway.

 

 

 

In our modern world we tend to value leadership over experience, especially nowadays, but we are not talking about our world, we are talking about Alethkar. In Alethkar, birth right decides the fate of people, not their capacities or their leaderships, but it does not change the fact someone brought up to rule a princedom one day is more aware to the task at hand than Kaladin who doesn't understand the basis of the social conventions around the lighteyes.

 

I also have yet to see Kaladin's leadership being applied to rule estates. He is a good leader of men, an inspiring figure which pulls the best out of people, but running lands is just not the same thing. You need more than leadership to be a good administrator and I have yet to see this in Kaladin. All I have seen so far is a man who does brilliantly with small group of people and small scale organisation, but has repetitively failed to see the bigger picture.  Until he corrects this flaw and learns to see beyond the tiny group of people he has decided he needs to protect, I would say he is not ready for the big office.

 

 

 

Oh no. I am not ruling out Kaladin to support Amaram (anyway I hate Amaram, but I think he could make an interesting antagonist). As I said, the Amaram "theory" if we shall call it such, hardly is one I would ready to tear my shirt over even if it may have looked like it. It was an idea I launched because I thought it would be interesting and the state of Alethi politics leads me to believe it may happen. 

 

Kaladin is as I said: not ready, in my opinion. Too many bridges to cross to get there. I never ruled out the option he may get there someday, but it would be a tad far-fetched for Brandon to bring this up in the next book. Just my two cents, but you are absolutely right: whatever it is, Brandon will come up with a much better ploy than anything we can come up with. Though, with the number of speculations I have made for book 3, there has to be, statistically, one or two places where I have gotten it right. My choice for being right certainly isn't anything to do with Amaram 

 

Milkshake huh? I am a hazelnut flavored coffee kinda of girl to the utter dismay of everyone else claiming I do not drink "real" coffee 

Isn't dueling against the codes?  Sadeas was compelled to duel Adolin because of the king's boon.  Can Highprinces randomly challenge each other?  If so, why did Sadeas have to do the boon trick with Gavilar previously when he killed that Highprince long ago?  Could Sadeas just delay it a year?  Could challenging Sadeas to a duel lead to the civil war that Dalinar wants to avoid?  Are you sure that dueling is a real option for Dalinar?

Whether dueling is another option or not, the two situations are still not comparable due to the power, confessed guilt and status imbalances.

 

Dalinar did say that they do not disarm Shardbearers, but he could have, which is my point.  He doesn't hesitate to innovate in other situations.  They would likely have to disarm Amaram with much greater loss of life later, so why not do it now?  Further, if something goes wrong with the expedition, there is little chance justice will ever be served. 

 

Yeah, I agree.  It was stupid of Amaram to confess, but that is one of the givens, so irrelevant. 

 

In Roshar, Aladar was chosen over Yenev's heir (or whoever that Highprince was).  The Alethi admire strong leadership even more than the Azish, who chose a juvenile thief as emperor.  Status can be changed by decree, just as in our feudal times.  Elhokar has been trained from birth to rule and has been ruling for six years and it hasn't made him good. 

 

In our world's past, in our present, in Alethkar, leadership has been valued over experience.  Consider Kaladin's commentary about the new sergeants if you doubt that that is how it works in Roshar.  One of the running subthemes of the series is effective leadership.  Where is your evidence to support the idea that experience and training are more important than innate leadership in this world of Brandon's?

Whether Kaladin will be considered for leadership is independent of how effective he would be if he even was chosen and if he accepted the position. 

 

In point of fact, Kaladin has shown a willingness to learn and consult.  A highprince is a leader, first and foremost (particularly since Alethi administration, being capable of being done with one hand, is essentially a female art    ).  Kaladin could have a council of advisers and would need administrators anyway.  Sigzil, for example, would make a good adviser. 

 

But all this is probably moot, as Kaladin would probably choose not to be Highprince.  Fighting the Voidbringers, Sons of Honor, Mr. T, the Ghostbloods, Odium, helping reform the Radiants and teaching Elhokar leadership might be enough for him. 

 

Apologies if my attempt at humor about the sweetness and expense of certain beverages hit a nerve.  I have no wish to offend  .

[Zea mays]

Just to throw a wrench in the Kaladin-as-future-ruler discussion, I will mention the new Alethi territory that now needs a permanent government: The Shattered Plains. The War of vengeance has been won, and the Everstorm is loose. The remaining  Highprinces may want to turn their attention back to their domains in Alethkar proper (working together as a nation, because now they really have no choice), but the war camps will not be abandoned completely.

Someone will need to be in charge of "harvesting" the gems from the Chasm Fiends. The capital of the new territory could be established at the now Parshendi-less Stormseat, and I think everyone's favorite bridgeleader is  the perfect candidate for "High-Lord of the Shattered Plains".

Probably not "High Prince of the Shattered Plains" though, because that would spoil the #10 motif

[maxal]

 

Isn't dueling against the codes?  Sadeas was compelled to duel Adolin because of the king's boon.  Can Highprinces randomly challenge each other?  If so, why did Sadeas have to do the boon trick with Gavilar previously when he killed that Highprince long ago?  Could Sadeas just delay it a year?  Could challenging Sadeas to a duel lead to the civil war that Dalinar wants to avoid?  Are you sure that dueling is a real option for Dalinar?

Whether dueling is another option or not, the two situations are still not comparable due to the power, confessed guilt and status imbalances.

 

 

You bring valid points. I seemed to recall Adolin stating he couldn't openly challenge Sadeas because he was higher ranked than him. I thus made the assumption Dalinar could, as he is of equal rank. However, it could be a Highprince can refuse a duel. In fact, anyone can refuse a duel, you are not compelled to agree to a challenge. Adolin has been known to refuse a great many of them in his attempt to follow his father's codes. My understanding was Sadeas could have challenged Yenev, but he could not force him to accept. Hence, they tricked him into being forced to fight. Adolin cannot challenge Sadeas by right, but even if he did, he would have the same issue: Sadeas can refuse. Dalinar, I am quite sure, can launch a challenge and Sadeas would have most probably accepted, I think.

 

So it does seem as if Dalinar could have tried the dueling approach, but not via his son as he has done. 

 

I agree the situations are not the same, but twice it makes Dalinar refuse open confrontation to favor more political avenues.

 

 

Dalinar did say that they do not disarm Shardbearers, but he could have, which is my point.  He doesn't hesitate to innovate in other situations.  They would likely have to disarm Amaram with much greater loss of life later, so why not do it now?  Further, if something goes wrong with the expedition, there is little chance justice will ever be served. 

 

Yeah, I agree.  It was stupid of Amaram to confess, but that is one of the givens, so irrelevant. 

 

I agree it was a strange move from Dalinar. Why confront Amaram, get his confession and do nothing about it? I agree there is an argument to be made he could/should have just killed him, but it would nonetheless have clashed with Dalinar's current politic approach. I guess this is the point I am trying to make. It seems killing Amaram would have been outside character for current days Dalinar to do.

 

 

In Roshar, Aladar was chosen over Yenev's heir (or whoever that Highprince was).  The Alethi admire strong leadership even more than the Azish, who chose a juvenile thief as emperor.  Status can be changed by decree, just as in our feudal times.  Elhokar has been trained from birth to rule and has been ruling for six years and it hasn't made him good. 

 

In our world's past, in our present, in Alethkar, leadership has been valued over experience.  Consider Kaladin's commentary about the new sergeants if you doubt that that is how it works in Roshar.  One of the running subthemes of the series is effective leadership.  Where is your evidence to support the idea that experience and training are more important than innate leadership in this world of Brandon's?

Whether Kaladin will be considered for leadership is independent of how effective he would be if he even was chosen and if he acc

 

Do we know if Yenev had a heir? It could be he was childless and Galivar and co knew Aladar would be the one brightlord to garner the most support. It was a planned gamble.

 

Azir is a bad example in my views. The reason they chose Gawx is rather out of common: all their Primes had been murdered after a few days in the office. I seem to recall three were killed so far: they were desperate to find someone able to withstand the threat. Gawx came back to life, so they elected him on this pure virtue. However, in normal circumstances, they would not have chosen his candidature.

 

As far as we have seen, birth right surpassed everything and it comes to Alethi politics. Sergeants may be nominated based on pure skill, but pass a certain level, you need to have the right eye color and the right rank to move further along. Elhokar was not made king for his qualities, but because he was the son of Galivar.

 

My point is whether Kaladin do have good leadership qualities, he does not have the right birth right to move further along the ladder. Alethi are very keen on it: you need to have been born in the right dahn/nahn. Most up level positions are given based on these criterion which is exactly what Kaladin complains openly about.

 

 

In point of fact, Kaladin has shown a willingness to learn and consult.  A highprince is a leader, first and foremost (particularly since Alethi administration, being capable of being done with one hand, is essentially a female art    ).  Kaladin could have a council of advisers and would need administrators anyway.  Sigzil, for example, would make a good adviser. 

 

But all this is probably moot, as Kaladin would probably choose not to be Highprince.  Fighting the Voidbringers, Sons of Honor, Mr. T, the Ghostbloods, Odium, helping reform the Radiants and teaching Elhokar leadership might be enough for him. 

 

Oh I am not disputing the fact Kaladin can learn, but I feel he needs to learn more before getting there or even be considered for it. PR is an important part of being a Highprince, which is another aspect Kaladin struggles with. Dalinar is allowed to ignore it because he is such a renown warrior and his fame make his stand above everyone else, but newly adjoin Kaladin would not have this luxury.

 

Teaching Elhokar leadership... Somehow I came to believe leadership is not something you can teach: you either have it or you don't. I personally am not keen on seeing Elhokar learn to be a great king: a tad too easy. History has had its share of bad/terrible kings and most never learned to be better: they were usually suffered until they died.

 

 

Apologies if my attempt at humor about the sweetness and expense of certain beverages hit a nerve.  I have no wish to offend  .

 

Oh I was not offended... I was trying to send the joke back, but I seem to have failed... I guess I am as gifted with humor as Adolin 

[hoser]

I was not arguing that Dalinar should kill Amaram, but that he should disarm him, with killing as as the last resort if he resists being disarmed.  Just be sure not to leave a confessed multiple murderer to walk free with the means of mass destruction. 

 

Whether or not Yenev had a child, his house would have had a succession and he would have had an heir (third cousin, once removed, or whatever).   So unless Aladar was that heir or Yenev (if that's the correct name) was the very last of his house, the Highprincedoms are not strictly inherited.  

 

As for caste, people are born to a level, but it can change in an instant.  Consider that Moash moved from nahn to high dahn instantly.  Likewise Jushu almost moved from reasonably high dahn to slave.  Kaladin moved from high nahn (third) to slave on the word of less than a highprince without judicial involvement.  If there was a consensus that Kaladin should become a Highprince, the king could adjust his status.  If he proves to be outstandingly heroic at Hearthstone and then Kholinar (big ifs!), not many will care about the birth rank of a Radiant Shardbearer hero. Likewise, his dealing with the Assassin in White, saving the king, dealing with Voidbringers in Hearthstone and riots in Kholinar could easily take care of the PR.  

In feudal systems, people could be knighted for meritorious performance on the spot.  Even modern armies allow for field promotions. 

 

Whether Elhokar learns anything or not, if Kaladin is accessible, he may feel obliged to invest effort in trying to teach him.  I personally think that Elhokar has a good heart and Kaladin has been an effective mentor, so I hope for Kaladin's leadership development that he is effective with Elhokar, but the results don't affect the burden.  

Edited July 30, 2015 by hoser

[Oudeis]

Why would Amaram super seed Torol Sadeas' children. I could see him taking the lead but I do not think he would become the high prince.

 

This was something covered much further back in the thread; Torol is never mentioned to have any children. Presumably, he does, and this is all therefore irrelevant. Perhaps he has a very young son, and Ialai will rule in his stead as Regent for some time.

[Arondell]

. Kaladin moved from high nahn (third) to slave on the word of less than a highprince without judicial involvement. 

 

Small quibble.  Kaladin was of the second Nahn.

 

 

“Amaram’s army,” Kaladin said. “A citizen, second nahn.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 97). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

[hoser]

Good catch.  Thanks!

Small quibble.  Kaladin was of the second Nahn.

I knew Lirin was of second nahn, but I thought his children would be one nahn lower, since I didn't think second nahn was a stable rank.  But, as the heir, I guess Kaladin stayed second nahn.   That does make the point even stronger.  Supposedly, as second nahn, Lirin had the right of inquest, but Kaladin was certainly not granted an appeal. 

[Rayse]

I don't believe any of the radiants will be made into high princes. The radiants are supposed to unite and protect all people. They can't be viewed as having an Alethi agenda and cannot get tied up in the Alethi politics. I think Dalinar will step down making Adolin the high prince so he can concentrate on being a Bondsmith. Adolin killing Sadeus sets it up for him to not be a radiant and with three Kholin's already radiants keeping some out makes sense for balance. Elokhar's potentially becoming a radiant throws a hole in this somewhat but I could see the direction being that he abdicates the throne for the greater good and to finally become the hero he desires to be. His torment between the title and the respect could be a major plot line down the road. 

 

Fun talking theories. 

[maxal]

 

I was not arguing that Dalinar should kill Amaram, but that he should disarm him, with killing as as the last resort if he resists being disarmed.  Just be sure not to leave a confessed multiple murderer to walk free with the means of mass destruction. 

 

I agree letting a murderer walk free with powerful weapons after confronting him was plain stupid of Dalinar. However, his speech to Kaladin seem to indicate it was not within his power to disarm Amaram. As for killing him, I doubt Dalinar could accept killing someone anymore unless it is in open combat. Though the whole scene is weird and Dalinar's purpose is not all that clear.

 

 

Whether or not Yenev had a child, his house would have had a succession and he would have had an heir (third cousin, once removed, or whatever).   So unless Aladar was that heir or Yenev (if that's the correct name) was the very last of his house, the Highprincedoms are not strictly inherited.  

 

Perhaps he had none which was why Galivar took the gamble... At this point, we just do not know.

 

 

As for caste, people are born to a level, but it can change in an instant.  Consider that Moash moved from nahn to high dahn instantly.  Likewise Jushu almost moved from reasonably high dahn to slave.  Kaladin moved from high nahn (third) to slave on the word of less than a highprince without judicial involvement.  If there was a consensus that Kaladin should become a Highprince, the king could adjust his status.  If he proves to be outstandingly heroic at Hearthstone and then Kholinar (big ifs!), not many will care about the birth rank of a Radiant Shardbearer hero. Likewise, his dealing with the Assassin in White, saving the king, dealing with Voidbringers in Hearthstone and riots in Kholinar could easily take care of the PR.  

In feudal systems, people could be knighted for meritorious performance on the spot.  Even modern armies allow for field promotions. 

 

As it is often the case in our world, I suspect it is much easier to go down in dahn than up... Lirin mentions how his forefathers worked hard to raise the family to the 2nd dahn and yet Kaladin was demoted in the split of a second. I'd wager thinks are often conducted this way in Alethkar: you need to work extra hard to move up, but you can move down with one mistake.

 

In other words, it will most likely be much harder for Kaladin to move up than it was for him to move down. This is just how classes are built in pretty much all the known worlds. 

 

 

Whether Elhokar learns anything or not, if Kaladin is accessible, he may feel obliged to invest effort in trying to teach him.  I personally think that Elhokar has a good heart and Kaladin has been an effective mentor, so I hope for Kaladin's leadership development that he is effective with Elhokar, but the results don't affect the burden.  

 

I do not think Elhokar's issues with leadership is something he can learn from Kaladin... 

 

Kaladin's approach to leadership is to set the example, to inspire others to behave better. Look how he won Bridge 4 over: he started training, on his own. He showed them what they should be doing. After a while, they imitated him. He inspired them to get better and since it worked, the inspiration moved to respect. Kaladin is thus a good leader because he makes others want to emulate him and once he earns their trust: they will do anything he asks of.

 

Elhokar is not inspiring and he probably does not have the means to be. He tried with the hunt, but it ended up with soldier dying uselessly because he was stubborn. He does not have Dalinar's self discipline either to follow a strict code, which did not work so well for his uncle as nobody was inspired to imitate him. Dalinar's own approach to leadership is tied with being rigorous, impose order, have every man knows its purpose and he relies a lot on him being a walking legend. People obey to Dalinar because they fear him and with that fear comes respect. Elhokar will never be a warlord as his uncle once was: he does not have it in him.

 

So what is he left with? Not much, so I doubt there is much Kaladin can teach him. Kaladin does not have a working manual to explain how his men obey him: they just do. 

 

I suspect he will either fall to his weaknesses or use his boldness to actually do something worth it. 

 

 

I don't believe any of the radiants will be made into high princes. The radiants are supposed to unite and protect all people. They can't be viewed as having an Alethi agenda and cannot get tied up in the Alethi politics. I think Dalinar will step down making Adolin the high prince so he can concentrate on being a Bondsmith. Adolin killing Sadeus sets it up for him to not be a radiant and with three Kholin's already radiants keeping some out makes sense for balance. Elokhar's potentially becoming a radiant throws a hole in this somewhat but I could see the direction being that he abdicates the throne for the greater good and to finally become the hero he desires to be. His torment between the title and the respect could be a major plot line down the road. 

 

Fun talking theories. 

 

Actually, there are many orders who would not only still take Adolin in, but would applaud. Do not forget Jasnah did much worst and she still gets to be a Radiant. Elhokar is overruled by his own weaknesses: he is more the antithesis of a Radiant right now, so I would not put much hope in him moving forward. 

 

Also, he is not one of the major characters: he is not even a POV one. He is most likely not getting more screen time, so anything revolving around him probably won't be a major plot point.

[Oudeis]

I've had a crazy week and much has been said since I last had the chance to weigh in... My apologies for not addressing every point that's been brought up or quoting people, there would simply be too much.

 

Bureaucracies exist so that no single man can sink the ship. Look at Elhokar. He's an idiot and a terrible king. He hasn't been within his own borders in years. His even-less-competent wife runs the kingdom for him. Yet, Alethkar is one of the greatest nations on the planet.

 

Dalinar felt uneasy putting Kaladin in charge of a thousand men when he would be directly and personally in charge of a thousand men. He's not in charge of every subject in the Highprincedom. There are local Citylords, and I think there was a word for the people like Amaram in charge of armies... Marshallords, perhaps?

 

Almost all of them would have to be replaced. And this is EXACTLY what we see Sebarial is amazing at. Especially with Dalinar's forced depleted, he must have some higher-ups with no one to be above, surely Sebarial and the King himself can spare some bureaucrats. Establish a few general policies, make a couple of decrees, let everyone get on with governing.

 

When Wistiow was in charge of Hearthstone, Sadeas's influence was minimal if not entirely non-existant. The fantasy trope of a kingdom is that the King is either wise and rules a good kingdom or wicked and rules an evil kingdom; in truth, if the incompetence of a king could sink a kingdom, no monarchy would have made it past four or five generations of inbreeding. Mr. Sanderson has a tendency to model things off what's actually plausible or what's happened in real life, rather than what tends to happen in fantasy cliches or fairy tales.

 

Warbreaker

 

The Gods have never even seen their own city, yet they are the ruling government. They vote on sanitation, they even decide whether or not they're at war. None of them arrive with any more experience than Kaladin has right now, and most of them have more power than a single Highprince would. It can continue to exist because of the bureaucracy of the priests, and because the Gods are typically smart enough to either learn from the priests or just do what they're told.

 

Someone talked about Radiants not taking part in politics. That was absolutely the policy of the ancient Radiants, and there's no reason to feel the new ones would feel any desire to conform to that old standard. Dalinar built Alethkar with his brother for his nephew and sons; even if he abdicates the Highprincedom to focus on Radiant duties, there is absolutely no way he is renouncing his Alethi nationality any time soon. And there's no more reason you couldn't be a Radiant and a Highprince than that you couldn't be a Highprince and a Shardbearer.

[cem]

There are local Citylords, and I think there was a word for the people like Amaram in charge of armies... Marshallords, perhaps?

Absendiar highmarshal which I think just means general in absentia from the context. I agree with everything else you said, but I don't think most Alethi highprinces delegate the killing business often.

[Oudeis]

...Except that there's not been a single Highprince in Alethkar for years, and plenty of killing has been going on, both between Highprincedoms and across the border with Jah Keved and/or Herdaz. I mean, it's because they themselves have been genociding listeners and chasmfiends. So, it's just that there's too much killing for any one man to do.