SPOILERS! ---Does Kaladin like Shallan, and Vice Versa?---

[natc]

It's funny how Kaladin and Shallan have the opposites attract relationship in absolutely everything about them, considering . . . well, Jezrien and Shallash.

[Guest]

It's funny how Kaladin and Shallan have the opposites attract relationship in absolutely everything about them, considering . . . well, Jezrien and Shallash.

 

Jezrien and Shalash are father and daughter... not lovers.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

It's funny how Kaladin and Shallan have the opposites attract relationship in absolutely everything about them, considering . . . well, Jezrien and Shallash.

I think he's saying that Jezrien and Shallsh don't get along well?

Can you clarify your statement natc?

[Alfa he/him]

By the way, do we have any guesses on Shallash's mother?

[Guest]

By the way, do we have any guesses on Shallash's mother?

 

Not that I know of... but there has been a crack-pet-theory that went on for a while that Shalash was Shshshshshshsh. 

[natc]

Jezrien and Shalash are father and daughter... not lovers.

How did you manage to get that out of what I said?

Usually children are at least a bit like their parents but here . . . yeah. Sounds like a really odd family. Imagine them as Kaladin and Shallan and you've got arguments going on 24/7.

The real deal was probably way more honorable and honest respectively but still.

Edited August 9, 2015 by natc

[Guest]

How did you manage to get that out of what I said?

Usually children are at least a bit like their parents but here . . . yeah. Sounds like a really odd family. Imagine them as Kaladin and Shallan and you've got arguments going on 24/7.

The real deal was probably way more honorable and honest respectively but still.

 

Well, what you said was not all that clear...  You drop Jezrien and Shalash in a discussion about Kaladin and Shallan as lovers... It was not very obvious. As for children, it does happen on strongly resemble one parent and not the other. Shalash must take after her mother, which we know nothing about.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Yes. Absolutely yes. Kaladin and Shallan are into each other like peanut butter is into jelly. Like the washing machine is into the dryer. Like Ipods are into Ipads. Like Jam is into Pam. Like Idris is into Hallandren. Like Saruman is into Sauron. Like Stormtroopers are into Darth Vader. Like pencils are into notebooks. Like blankets are into pillows. Like 17th Sharders are into Hoid. Like Cultivation is into Honor. Like Samurai are into ninjas. Like suits are into coat hangars. Like dwarves are into axes. Like Japan is into anime. Like lightswitches are into lightbulbs. Like turkeys are into Thanksgiving. Like, um... what was I doing again? Oh yeah.

 

I don't always ship. But when I do, I ship Shalladin 

[Blightsong he/him]

Yes. Absolutely yes. Kaladin and Shallan are into each other like peanut butter is into jelly. Like the washing machine is into the dryer. Like Ipods are into Ipads. Like Jam is into Pam. Like Idris is into Hallandren. Like Saruman is into Sauron. Like Stormtroopers are into Darth Vader. Like pencils are into notebooks. Like blankets are into pillows. Like 17th Sharders are into Hoid. Like Cultivation is into Honor. Like Samurai are into ninjas. Like suits are into coat hangars. Like dwarves are into axes. Like Japan is into anime. Like lightswitches are into lightbulbs. Like turkeys are into Thanksgiving. Like, um... what was I doing again? Oh yeah.

 

I don't always ship. But when I do, I ship Shalladin 

I also ship Shalladin, but on a much lesser scale than you. I mean, her and Adolin are obviously more deeply into eachother than Shalladin, but we'll see what happens after what Adolin did in WoR. I think the most likely ship is Shaladolin, but the one in my heart of hearts is Shalladin.

[Blightsong he/him]

Becoming one of them does not mean he appreciates them more.

I agree that Kaladin is becoming less hating towards lighteyes. After seeing that lighteyes aren't all evil and now having some lighteyes friends of his own the ice over his heart in that regaurd is starting to thaw.

Edit: sorry bout the double post, wasn't thinking .

Edited August 9, 2015 by Blightsong

[Seloun]

I also ship Shalladin, but on a much lesser scale than you. I mean, her and Adolin are obviously more deeply into eachother than Shalladin, but we'll see what happens after what Adolin did in WoR. I think the most likely ship is Shaladolin, but the one in my heart of hearts is Shalladin.

 

I don't think it's obvious at all that Shallan and Adolin are closer than Shallan and Kaladin. While Adolin and Shallan have some infatuation with one another (e.g. their initial meeting) and one good interaction (the meeting immediately before the highstorm), their conversations post-chasm feel like they're talking around each other.

 

There's the scene quoted earlier where Shallan gets distracted from what Adolin's saying because she's daydreaming about Kaladin (telling on its own), and two other significant conversations between Adolin and Shallan. The first one is immediately after the return from the chasm:

 

 

Shallan sat in thought, finishing her wine, until the door to the sitting room burst open, letting in Adolin. He stopped, wild-eyed, regarding her.

 

Shallan stood up, smiling. “It appears that I have failed at properly—”

 

She cut off as he grabbed her in an embrace. Drat. She’d had a perfectly clever quip prepared too. She’d worked on it during the entire bath.

 

Still, it was nice to be held. This was the most physically forward he’d ever been. Surviving an impossible journey did have its benefits. She let herself wrap her arms around him, feel the muscles on his back through his uniform, breathe in his cologne. He held her for several heartbeats. Not enough. She twisted her head and forced a kiss, her mouth enclosing his, firm in his embrace.

...

 

“I still can’t believe . . . I mean, you fell. I should have saved you. Shallan, I’m sorry. I ran for Father first—”

 

“You did what you should have ,” she said. “No person on that bridge would have had you rescue one of us instead of your father.”

 

He embraced her once more. “Well, I won’t let it happen again. Nothing like it. I’ll protect you, Shallan.”

 

She stiffened.

 

...

 

“Shallan?” Adolin said. “Don’t worry, they won’t get to you. I’ll protect you. I—”

 

“Don’t say things like that,” she hissed.

 

“What?” He ran his hand through his hair.

 

“Just don’t,” Shallan said, shivering.

...

 

“It’s not important.” Shallan raised his hand and wove his fingers between her own. “I appreciate the concern. That’s all that matters.”

 

But I won’t let you, or anyone else, treat me like a thing to be hidden away. Never, never again.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 890). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Note how Adolin and Shallan's focuses are entirely different, starting from their initial expectations (quip/hug, then kiss/forced kiss) and later to the more fundamental perception of what the correct next step should be. Also, the last line is highly reminiscent of Kaladin's earlier

 

 

He was free now. He could return to his life as a bodyguard. But one thing . . . one thing had changed.

 

Nobody will ever, ever, do this to me again. Not king or general, not brightlord or brightlady.

 

He would die first.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 778). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Almost like a reverse-oath.

 

The second scene is in Urithiru:

 

 

“You look exhausted,” he said, giving her a peck of a kiss.

 

“And you look like you let someone play sticks with your face,” she said, but smiled at him. “You should get some sleep too.”

 

“I will ,” he said . “Soon.” He touched her face. “You’re amazing , you realize. You saved everything. Everyone.”

 

“No need to treat me like I’m glass, Adolin.”

 

“You’re a Radiant,” he said. “I mean . . .” He ran his hand through his persistently messy hair. “Shallan. You’re something greater than even a lighteyes.”

 

“Was that a wisecrack about my girth?”

 

“What? No. I mean . . .” He blushed.

 

“I will not let this be awkward, Adolin.”

“But—”

 

She grabbed him in an embrace and forced him into a kiss, a deep and passionate one. He tried to mumble something, but she kept on kissing, pressing her lips against his, letting him feel her desire. He melted into the kiss, then grabbed her by the torso and pulled her close.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1057). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Adolin and Shallan are both physically attractive and they're understandably physically attracted to each other, but that appears to be the main thing going for their relationship. Shallan doesn't even need the backing of the Kholin house any more. Despite what Shallan says, their relationship seems pretty awkward (another 'forced kiss' here) and literally the only thing holding their relationship together is that they find each other hot (sometimes maybe that's enough...). I don't think Shallan has really noticed yet (or, more like her, she's not willing to admit the truth to herself) but Adolin certainly is feeling doubts and insecurity about their relationship:

 

 

As Adolin walked the dark halls of Urithiru, he tried not to show how overwhelmed he felt. The world had just shifted, like a door on its hinges. A few days ago, his causal betrothal had been that of a powerful man to a relatively minor scion of a distant house. Now, Shallan might be the most important person in the world , and he

was . . .

 

What was he?

 

He raised his lantern, then made a few marks in chalk on the wall to indicate he’d been here. This tower was huge. How did the entire thing stay up? They could probably explore in here for months without opening every door. He had thrown himself into the duty of exploration because it seemed like something he could do. It also, unfortunately, gave him time to think. He didn’t like how few answers he came up with.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1066). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

On closer reading it's just hard to see Adolin and Shallan's relationship going anywhere without a huge amount of character development (probably from Adolin). While it's certainly possible, it would be a stretch to say that that's the 'obvious' relationship for Shallan at this point.

[Guest]

For my stand-point, Shallan and Adolin have instant chemistry. The second they walked-in that first date, they rapidly got at ease with each other without having to tell their entire life story to understand themselves better. They just clicked. It was genuine. It was this magic moment when two people who do not know each other starts talking and it just fits: they just get along, spontaneously. It is very rare and very precious.

 

Shallan and Kaladin do not have chemistry: they have an understanding as after sharing their entire miseries, they are finally able to stop hating each other. They have new fond respect, but without having been forced to share their burden, they would have never clicked. I can't even say they are at ease together as despite knowing their entire life, they are still unable to engage friendly talk which constitutes 99% of all relationships.

 

I disagree the "forced kiss" means the chemistry does not pass or it is fake... Adolin is pictured as being horribly shy which is a sharp contrast to what, the readers, have come to expect from the guy who has dated the whole War Camp. It simply highlights how over done Adolin's reputation is: he may have dated several women, but he never did anything with them. He probably did not even miss most of them, so when Shallan gets close, he walks back. Not because it is fake, but because he is just very shy about intimacy. They make me think of a young couple, slowly discovering themselves, taking very small steps and being awkward at it because they are completely unsure of what to do next.

 

Shallan indeed does not need Adolin anymore, yet her first action upon arriving at the city is to reinforce their relationship. She did not have to talk to him right now, she could have waited. Heck, if she were that much into Kaladin, surely she would have tried to talk to him first, upon finding he was a Radiant as well, but no. She goes to Adolin and works toward not having their relation go weird because she now has super powers. And yes, Adolin is insecure. He has been insecure since page 1 of WoK. It hardly is a surprise. Yes, he thinks he does not deserve her, but this is Adolin's struggle and not Shallan. Shallan seems rather set on making it work and the reason she kisses him was to stop having him fret over the Radiants, to make him feel nothing has changed between them. It was not fake at all, but a beautiful scene.

 

I would not say it is the obvious relationship for Shallan, but I would think it is more obvious than Kaladin.

 

Let's also not forget Shallan going for Kaladin directly implies a love triangle (which nobody wants) as never in a thousand years will Adolin ever be fine with it. Adolin simply deciding Shallan is not right for him and accepting to have Kaladin date her because they are so awesome together will NEVER happen. This is the FIRST girl the guy ever crushes on: she is a perfect fit for him in every single way. No way he'll just walk away, keep being buddy-buddy with both Shallan and Kaladin, work with the Radiants and all will be fine. Adolin will never be fine with losing Shallan. It will thus be a pesky love triangle, unless Brandon kills Adolin which would be equally horrible for the story plot as the worst way to solve a love triangle is to kill one of the individuals, because it removes the girl from actually to have to make a choice. Bad, bad, bad.

[Seloun]

Shallan and Kaladin's relationship with each other go well beyond simply not hating one another. While this has been quoted above, it may be worth revisiting:

 

 

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind , noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

 

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

 

Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 936). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 

 

 

She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance.

 

She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool. A part of him wanted to hate Adolin for holding her attention, but he found that he couldn’t. The truth was, he liked Adolin. And those two were good for one another. They fit.

 

Perhaps Kaladin could hate that.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 929). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Note those happen almost at the same time from different perspectives.

 

I also don't see why it's so impossible to imagine Adolin eventually gracefully bowing out, much like what Kaladin thinks he's doing above. Adolin's among the most easygoing individual out of the main cast. If Shallan ends up dumping him, it seems unlikely that he'd make a huge scene about it. Also, I don't actually know that Shallan is a particularly good fit for Adolin; in particular Adolin doesn't really know all that much about Shallan at this point.

 

While it's true that Adolin and Shallan hit it off early on, this is before they really know anything about each other besides their public persona (think celebrity marriages...). This is particularly relevant for Shallan, who is explicitly all about dissembling. I'd argue that their initial reactions are much less indicative of where they'll end up than what we see in their development. Shallan's internal monologue about Adolin becomes more and more about justifying things she finds lacking in him. While her conscious thoughts are about making their relationship work, the subtext is fairly clear, and lying to herself is pretty much Shallan's main shtick.

 

Basically, Shallan and Kaladin start on the completely wrong foot, with terrible misunderstandings on both sides - but throughout WoR their relationship grows to the point that they're clearly attracted to each other (Kaladin is explicit; Shallan is implicit, but again, this is Shallan's nature). Adolin and Shallan's arc is basically the other direction - initial attraction, but they find that they have less and less in common as they learn about each other. The likely progression really isn't hard to follow.

 

Also, as a meta argument, Shallan and Kaladin are going to be separated in WoR to slow down their relationship. Helaran's death is clearly being held in reserve, as Shallan had multiple opportunities to learn about it while Kaladin is around to defend himself. A stormy (pun not intended) relationship resolving itself is a pretty common literary theme. Adolin _not_ being separated from Shallan is almost evidence that their relationship probably will not work out in the long run.

[Guest]

I personally do not see Shallan thinking about Kaladin while talking with Adolin as a sign of anything. She is a young woman with little experience with men, so she ends up comparing those she knows. It is a perfectly normal for a young woman to compare the young man she knows: we all do this, but it does not mean the compared to are romantic interests. It does not mean it will pan into it, it simply is a measure of evaluation which is exactly what I believe Shallan is doing here. I see not romantic interest whatsoever in her trail of thoughts.

 

I also don't see why it's so impossible to imagine Adolin eventually gracefully bowing out, much like what Kaladin thinks he's doing above. Adolin's among the most easygoing individual out of the main cast. If Shallan ends up dumping him, it seems unlikely that he'd make a huge scene about it. Also, I don't actually know that Shallan is a particularly good fit for Adolin; in particular Adolin doesn't really know all that much about Shallan at this point.

 

I think it is impossible to see Adolin gradually bowing out. Adolin's entire story arc has been geared towards him finding a wife. It is one of his short-term objective: find himself a wife. He has utterly failed at this, to the point where he does not even want to try anymore and he does see Shallan as the last chance girl. There is nobody else left after her. They hit on. It is clear and obvious he is falling in love with her. Bowing out? Why on Earth would he bowed out from the ONLY girl out of a long trail of courtship where he had ANY affinity at all? I doubt he'd make a huge scene as you say, but he will never be fine with it. 

 

Adolin does not know a lot about Shallan, true, but that's the beauty of their relationship: they don't need to go all intimate about their dirty secrets to get along. They don't need that level of confidence to just stop hating each other. They just click. It is safe to assume Adolin will learn the truth, eventually, and I'd wager he is going to be a LOT more fine with it than people think.

 

 

While it's true that Adolin and Shallan hit it off early on, this is before they really know anything about each other besides their public persona (think celebrity marriages...). This is particularly relevant for Shallan, who is explicitly all about dissembling. I'd argue that their initial reactions are much less indicative of where they'll end up than what we see in their development. Shallan's internal monologue about Adolin becomes more and more about justifying things she finds lacking in him. While her conscious thoughts are about making their relationship work, the subtext is fairly clear, and lying to herself is pretty much Shallan's main shtick.

 

I disagree. Shallan and Adolin did not talk to each other via their public persona: they talk with their genuine personality which is why they hit of. Adolin has been crafting himself the hell of a public persona, the one where he blathers the same stories, the one where he is exactly what society wants him to be, but on the inside he is much different. It is this inside man Shallan manages to drag out during their first date. The same goes with Shallan who, after trying to be who she is not, goes back to being natural. She tells him about the Parshendis and whereas they don't go all childhood confidence, they still share a lot and they were genuine. 

 

Now I feel you are taking the ONE time where Shallan thinks about Kaladin and you are extrapolating to many events... Shallan subconscious has made her forget about unlocking the Oathgate simply to go hug injured Adolin. Shallan subconscious also prompted her to talk to him after reaching Urithiru as opposed to talking to Kaladin... There is only one instance where she had thought about Kaladin and suddenly it is supposed to negate all of the other thoughts she has about Adolin, including that happening after the event? I just disagree with this. Simply thinking for 2 seconds about Kaladin does not garantie a romantic relationship and I'll be bolder than this: Kaladin and Shallan absolutely do not need to go romantic to have a relationship, but it is crystal clear Shallan and Adolin will never have a friendship relationship. This will never happen, so it is either romantic or Adolin is cast away to make room for the oh so more honorable Kaladin. However, I agree this is not an argument most people will dig in, but the fact remains Adolin and Shallan will never be friends. Adolin's character growth demands he manages to find himself a wife, Shallan is his last chance: he loses her, then he is stuck for celibacy for life. He won't find another woman, I simply do not see that happening. 

 

There are many reasons why Kaladin and Shallan is bad for the story... One of those is they are a walking cliche which has been so over-used it has gotten boring and I'd like to think Brandon a better author than that. Another one is having the main male protagonist and the main female protagonist be an item would limit SA to be the story of Kaladin and Shallan, which would be boring in the long run. It is also so damnation predictable the second they had their first encounters, everyone was rooting for it simply because it was Kaladin. Another one is Kaladin does not need a romantic relationship to evolve and let's just say he'd be a horrible boyfriend, so center he is on his task. He does not even understand why Adolin and Shallan go on dates, he thinks their choice of activities are stupid, what he is to do with Shallan? He basically hates everything she likes. Adolin has been built over the fact he wants a relationship, he is ready for it, so to deny him of it would make a very boring story to read. What's to become of him if he does not get conclusion on this aspect? I could go on and on, but again, these are probably not arguments to convince anyone. The Kaladin/Shallan ship is by far the most popular and I am still baffled why. 

 

 

 

Basically, Shallan and Kaladin start on the completely wrong foot, with terrible misunderstandings on both sides - but throughout WoR their relationship grows to the point that they're clearly attracted to each other (Kaladin is explicit; Shallan is implicit, but again, this is Shallan's nature). Adolin and Shallan's arc is basically the other direction - initial attraction, but they find that they have less and less in common as they learn about each other. The likely progression really isn't hard to follow.

 

Alright. I personally do not read any attraction from Shallan's part. Pondering ONCE through an entire book about Kaladin does not qualify as attraction. Kaladin may have a bit of attraction, but it is very benign right now and it may not evolve into anything romantic. These were just thoughts. They are not in love with each other, they don't even think about each other in these terms, heck Shallan does not even find Kaladin attractive.... She thinks she needs to look at him from an angle to find some attractiveness to him.

 

I disagree about Shallan and Adolin. Sure they hit is of as physical, but their first date showed they do have stuff in common which is why Shallan calls Adolin a "nice surprise". He is not just handsome, he also has other things to offer other than his name and his money.

 

I disagree Shallan and Adolin has nothing in common and they have hordes in common. For one, Adolin is clearly more artistically minded than Kaladin and whereas he is not scholar, he is a curious man who likes to be told about new things. They are able to maintain a long conversation on scholarly matters and Adolin is perfectly able to follow. Kaladin may have more knowledge, but I am sorry, he is no scholar. He has never shown any interest in scholarly pursuits. He had many opportunity to continue his training, but he refused. He never really wanted to learn what Lirin had to teach him, he did because he was obliged. Instead he dreamed of being a soldier. I am sorry but Kaladin is no scholar and certainly no artist. Adolin may not be these things, but he is curious (about many more things then very task centered Kaladin) and he has an eye for art, which Kaladin does not have. So to me, the argument that Adolin and Shallan have nothing in common is a very weak one as Kaladin and Shallan have even less in common.

 

 

Also, as a meta argument, Shallan and Kaladin are going to be separated in WoR to slow down their relationship. Helaran's death is clearly being held in reserve, as Shallan had multiple opportunities to learn about it while Kaladin is around to defend himself. A stormy (pun not intended) relationship resolving itself is a pretty common literary theme. Adolin _not_ being separated from Shallan is almost evidence that their relationship probably will not work out in the long run.

 

I failed to see how Adolin not being separated from Shallan is a sign their relationship won't work out. I should think it would be the contrary. Whatever feelings Shallan has for Kaladin will most likely die before he gets back as let's be serious whatever interest she may or may not have with him certainly is not love nor very romantic. 

 

As for meta arguments, I have said quite a few. Adolin needs a wife: his entire arc has been built around this fact. Kaladin does not need a romantic relationship and whatever he needs to learn from Shallan, he does not need to go romantic with her. Kaladin and Shallan being a couple does not add to the story at all and it does not make any of the character move forward. Adolin and Shallan is more apt as it makes Adolin finally learn about relationships and it forces Shallan to accept having someone to take care of her (Kaladin certainly won't be that person as he is not caring). There is also the fact Kaladin and Shallan is a love triangle as Adolin will always be around and it would completely OOC for him to just be fine with it. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by maxal

[Seloun]

I personally do not see Shallan thinking about Kaladin while talking with Adolin as a sign of anything. She is a young woman with little experience with men, so she ends up comparing those she knows. It is a perfectly normal for a young woman to compare the young man she knows: we all do this, but it does not mean the compared to are romantic interests. It does not mean it will pan into it, it simply is a measure of evaluation which is exactly what I believe Shallan is doing here. I see not romantic interest whatsoever in her trail of thoughts.

 

So, again, Shallan's internal dialogue says this about Adolin:

 

He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair. She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn’t.

 

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind, noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 936). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

This is what it says about Kaladin:

 

 

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

 

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 936). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Kaladin is the dude you see on the cover of romance novels holding the heroine. Adolin is the nice guy. It's reasonable to argue that Adolin might be a better fit for Shallan for that reason, but I cannot see how you can possibly argue that Shallan is not attracted to Kaladin. Shallan describes no other person - ever - in terms anywhere near she describes Kaladin. She's obviously spent a lot of time thinking about it to come up with such a thorough description.

 

 

Alright. I personally do not read any attraction from Shallan's part. Pondering ONCE through an entire book about Kaladin does not qualify as attraction. Kaladin may have a bit of attraction, but it is very benign right now and it may not evolve into anything romantic. These were just thoughts. They are not in love with each other, they don't even think about each other in these terms, heck Shallan does not even find Kaladin attractive.... She thinks she needs to look at him from an angle to find some attractiveness to him.

 

Shallan and Kaladin's arc is a pretty conventional tsundere arc. As the saying goes, love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. It's not really just one scene (at the very least, there are the chasm scenes). Even from the beginning, they're able to get under each other's skin very easily (the argument to be let in to the council). They have strong feelings for each other from the start; it's just that initially it presents itself as inexplicable anger or irritation, which is classic tsundere:

 

 

She was another reason he felt like a fool. He shouldn’t let her provoke him so. He could hold in the retorts against other, far more annoying lighteyes. Why did he lose control when talking with her?

 

...

He leaned against a section of the chasm wall, spear in the crook of his arm, light shining from the spheres tied tightly at its head. He had made invalid assumptions about her, as she had so poignantly noted. Again and again. It was like a part of him frantically wanted to dislike her.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 844). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Unusually, there might actually be a supernatural component to the initial friction in this case (the spren conflict).

 

 

 

 

disagree Shallan and Adolin has nothing in common and they have hordes in common. For one, Adolin is clearly more artistically minded than Kaladin and whereas he is not scholar, he is a curious man who likes to be told about new things. They are able to maintain a long conversation on scholarly matters and Adolin is perfectly able to follow. Kaladin may have more knowledge, but I am sorry, he is no scholar. He has never shown any interest in scholarly pursuits. He had many opportunity to continue his training, but he refused. He never really wanted to learn what Lirin had to teach him, he did because he was obliged. Instead he dreamed of being a soldier. I am sorry but Kaladin is no scholar and certainly no artist. Adolin may not be these things, but he is curious (about many more things then very task centered Kaladin) and he has an eye for art, which Kaladin does not have. So to me, the argument that Adolin and Shallan have nothing in common is a very weak one as Kaladin and Shallan have even less in common.

 

 

Shallan's thoughts:

 

 

He snorted. “If you’d really wanted to see a chrysalis, you could have just had them tow one back for you. They have those chull sleds for the wounded; one of those might have worked. There was no need for you to come all the way out here yourself.”

 

Blast. A solid argument. It was a good thing Adolin hadn’t thought of that. The prince was wonderful , and he certainly wasn’t stupid, but he was also . . . mentally direct.

This bridgeman was proving himself different. The way he watched her, the way he thought. Even, she realized, the way he spoke. He talked like an educated lighteyes. But what of those slave brands on his forehead? The hair got in the way, but she thought that one of them was a shash brand.

 

Perhaps she should spend as much time wondering about this man’s motives as he apparently fretted about hers.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 836). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

also, earlier:

 

 

He stepped closer , looking over her shoulder as she drew. “Strata,” he said. “You’re counting the strata of crem to guess how old the rock is.”

 

“Good guess,” she said, “but this is a bad location for strata dating. The wind blows across the plateaus too strongly, and the crem doesn’t collect in pools evenly. So the strata here are erratic and inaccurate.”

 

Kaladin frowned, narrowing his eyes. The cross section of rock was normal cremstone on the outside, some strata visible as different shades of brown. The center of the stone, though, was white. You didn’t see white rock like that often; it had to be quarried. Which meant this was either a very strange occurrence, or . . .

 

“There was a structure here once,” Kaladin said. “A long time ago. It must have taken centuries for the crem to get that thick on something sticking out of the ground.”

 

She glanced at him. “You’re smarter than you look.” Then, turning back to her drawing, she added, “Good thing . .

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 813). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Kaladin thinks like a scholar. Also, unlike Adolin, he's well versed in wordplay (by their standards, anyway...) as noted in the first scene quoted above and as demonstrated in the chasm scene. It's inaccurate to say that he did not want to pursue the scholarly arts; the penultimate flashback in TWoK before the draft is Kaladin realizing that he really wants to become a doctor. Instead, it's overcome by events when Tien gets drafted:

 

 

He looked up suddenly at his father, who had bowed his head, looking sorrowful. He was a hero. A villain too. But a hero to his family. “I won’t tell Tien,” Kal whispered. “And I’m going to use the spheres to travel to Kholinar and study.”

 

...

“I want to start going by my full name,” he replied, surprising himself. “Kaladin.” It was a man’s name. He’d always disliked how it sounded like the name of a lighteyes. Now it seemed to fit.

 

He wasn’t a darkeyed farmer, but he wasn’t a lighteyed lord either. Something in between. Kal had been a child who wanted to join the army because it was what other boys dreamed of. Kaladin would be a man who learned surgery and all the ways of the lighteyes. And someday he would return to this town and prove to Roshone, Rillir, and Laral herself that they had been wrong to dismiss him.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 552). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Navani on Adolin:

 

 

She trailed off as she caught Adolin’s eyes glazing over. He was a bright young man when it came to most social interactions, but he didn’t have a single scholarly breath in him. Navani smiled, switching to layman’s terms.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 416). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Intellectually, Kaladin is a better fit for Shallan than Adolin. It's possible to argue that this is not that important (certainly possible) but it's hard to argue that this isn't actually the case.

 

Also, while Adolin is certainly more interested in fashion, and appears to have a good sense for fashion, this is quite different from 'art' as Shallan uses the term. It's worth noting that Shallan's 'art' is always reproductions of things she sees and is almost always described in a scholarly context, rather than describing a general aesthetic sense (i.e. she doesn't draw pretty pictures, she draws accurate pictures).

 

 

I failed to see how Adolin not being separated from Shallan is a sign their relationship won't work out. I should think it would be the contrary. Whatever feelings Shallan has for Kaladin will most likely die before he gets back as let's be serious whatever interest she may or may not have with him certainly is not love nor very romantic. 

 

 

The meta-argument is that it's pretty obvious that barriers for any kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (romantic or otherwise) are being built or being held in reserve (again, separation, Helaran's death, spren conflicts, among other things). If there was nothing there and nothing to be there, the barriers have no narrative purpose. That there has to be some kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (even if just as the two main Radiants) is pretty unavoidable.

 

Adolin and Shallan's relationship doesn't need artificial barriers to cause drama; the relationship itself is what will be drama.

 

Also, I'm not really sure why you seem to think that Adolin will never, ever be able to get over Shallan, no matter what, or that he would somehow go crazy. It's worth noting we see a similar theme in the previous generation with Gavilar, Dalinar and Navani, which did not in fact result in Dalinar killing Gavilar even if he contemplated it.

 

As a final note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, Kaladin compares Shallan with Tien. Tien!:

 

 

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

 

“How?” he asked.

 

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy. Come on. I do believe we’re under a slight time constraint . . .”

 

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 849-850). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again— he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

 

Tien always did that to me . . . he thought. Even on the darkest day.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 850). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Tien is arguably the most impactful person in Kaladin's life, being the catalyst for abandoning his medical career for the army in the first place and the reason for his breaking (and becoming Radiant). Putting Shallan in that category is not a trivial thing; no one else fits there.

[Guest]

 

Kaladin is the dude you see on the cover of romance novels holding the heroine. Adolin is the nice guy. It's reasonable to argue that Adolin might be a better fit for Shallan for that reason, but I cannot see how you can possibly argue that Shallan is not attracted to Kaladin. Shallan describes no other person - ever - in terms anywhere near she describes Kaladin. She's obviously spent a lot of time thinking about it to come up with such a thorough description.

 

Dude, that's exactly why I hate this ship with a passion. The grim, dark, bad boy ALWAYS gets the girl in every single romance novel ever been written and worst, their relationship ALWAYS start with a hate one. It is how it ALWAYS goes in every single novel/movie/series. I strongly suspect one of the reasons the ship gets so much support is people have gotten so used to it, as soon as they see two characters arguing as Kaladin and Shallan, they think romantic.

 

Adolin never had a chance. He is just the nice guy. Who cares about the nice guy? The nice guy is the one we always see in the background, to leave, alone and nobody cares what happens to him afterwards. He truly loved the girl and perhaps she loves him too, but what chances did he have in front of the "smoldering resolve"? None.

 

That's one huge reason why I hate the Kaladin/Shallan ship.

 

 

 

The meta-argument is that it's pretty obvious that barriers for any kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (romantic or otherwise) are being built or being held in reserve (again, separation, Helaran's death, spren conflicts, among other things). If there was nothing there and nothing to be there, the barriers have no narrative purpose. That there has to be some kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (even if just as the two main Radiants) is pretty unavoidable.

 

Adolin and Shallan's relationship doesn't need artificial barriers to cause drama; the relationship itself is what will be drama.

 

Also, I'm not really sure why you seem to think that Adolin will never, ever be able to get over Shallan, no matter what, or that he would somehow go crazy. It's worth noting we see a similar theme in the previous generation with Gavilar, Dalinar and Navani, which did not in fact result in Dalinar killing Gavilar even if he contemplated it.

 

Adolin has dated every single eligible young women in Alethkar and it failed. It is clear to me, Adolin, an Alethi who does not look like one, is not finding himself the right woman within the Alethi standard. Not surprising, his mother was a foreigner. For once, in his life, after 6 years of endless courtships, he has found one girl he truly likes and you tell me he will be fine with her going away? With her preferring the bridgeboy?

 

The Dalinar/Navani/Galivar love triangle ended in Dalinar basically ignoring Navani for decades. He gingerly step away from her each she walked in and Navani express her sad thoughts at the fact they never managed to be friends. Adolin will never be friends with Kaladin/Shallan the power couple. He'll stay away, much like his father did. He won't have the opportunity to roam the world like Dalinar to find himself a wife. They are at war. He just won't find anyone and remain single or he'll ask to be send in a position as far away frHe iom Kaladin/Shallan as possible. He is just never going to be fine with just as Dalinar was never fine with it. 

 

I would also hate to have a mirror of this past triangle. I think it is not necessary. 

 

I also strongly believe Kaladin is a horrible match for Shallan. I do believe he is a bad match in every single way, but I do not have time to detail it now. In any advent, it seems pretty useless. The forum is rooting more heavily for the Kaladin/Shallan ship so bringing more arguments for the Adolin/Shallan one seems completely pointless. 

[AerionBFII he/him]

I really hope Kal does not end up with Shallan, he is my favorite character and shallan is.....ok'ish but no do not ship them at all..

[6000j he/him]

i believe in kaladin/shallan, but even if it doesn't happen, having a good relationship with someone could pull him out of his depression.

[Guest]

i believe in kaladin/shallan, but even if it doesn't happen, having a good relationship with someone could pull him out of his depression.

 

This is not how depression works. Shallan won't save him from his depression. She won't change anything, but she will have to live with it.

[restless he/him]

Kaladin + Shallan will be so BORING.

 

cliche.

Conan-style. Tho Sanderson does like Conan-style endings - both books ended in such way - epic battles where "1 hero kills them all"

Edited August 11, 2015 by restless

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Seloun, Maxal, I feel you should both be thanked.

You two have made this thread so fun to read, and you both have very convincing arguments.

Thank you.

[Guest]

Seloun, Maxal, I feel you should both be thanked.

You two have made this thread so fun to read, and you both have very convincing arguments.

Thank you.

 

Thanks I have half a mind to try to put my thoughts into a cohesive argumentative text.

[Seloun]

Dude, that's exactly why I hate this ship with a passion. The grim, dark, bad boy ALWAYS gets the girl in every single romance novel ever been written and worst, their relationship ALWAYS start with a hate one. It is how it ALWAYS goes in every single novel/movie/series. I strongly suspect one of the reasons the ship gets so much support is people have gotten so used to it, as soon as they see two characters arguing as Kaladin and Shallan, they think romantic.

 

 

FWIW I'm not for (or against) the Kaladin/Shallan ship (or Adolin/Shallan for that matter). My point is only that (in reference to the OP):

 

- There is direct, incontrovertible evidence that by the end of WoR, Kaladin has feelings for Shallan (we know this because Kaladin literally comes out and says it to himself and the reader);

 

- There is indirect but very strong evidence that Shallan has feelings for Kaladin (though with Shallan being Shallan, she does not admit it directly); and

 

- The relationship between Shallan and Kaladin has been intentionally developed to the point where it has to be resolved in the future (partly through the above two points, and partly through the meta-arguments outlined before).

 

I'm not claiming that the resolution will be one way or another, just that there is something actually there - with textual evidence - and that it's a Chekhov's gun that needs to get fired at some point. Whether or not one likes the relationship is a completely independent issue.

[Guest]

FWIW I'm not for (or against) the Kaladin/Shallan ship (or Adolin/Shallan for that matter). My point is only that (in reference to the OP):

 

- There is direct, incontrovertible evidence that by the end of WoR, Kaladin has feelings for Shallan (we know this because Kaladin literally comes out and says it to himself and the reader);

 

- There is indirect but very strong evidence that Shallan has feelings for Kaladin (though with Shallan being Shallan, she does not admit it directly); and

 

- The relationship between Shallan and Kaladin has been intentionally developed to the point where it has to be resolved in the future (partly through the above two points, and partly through the meta-arguments outlined before).

 

I'm not claiming that the resolution will be one way or another, just that there is something actually there - with textual evidence - and that it's a Chekhov's gun that needs to get fired at some point. Whether or not one likes the relationship is a completely independent issue.

 

This paragraph was in response to your own where you stated Kaladin was the poster boy for every heroine novel... He indeed is which is why having him end up with Shallan is bad, predictable and horribly cliche. It could be I am being misguided, but I have come to expect much more from Stormlight Archive than a cliche teenage girl flick.

 

That being said, you are of course right in stating my love/hate for a ship is not a valid argumentation. I merely pointed out to illustrate why some people did not like the ship and alternatively there are plenty of people who like for these reasons. How many times have I read people stating they love Shallarin because they truly enjoyed these kind of love/hate good girl/bad boy relationship while they found Adolin boring? Each time I hear this argument I wonder if people truly believe this because they really prefer it or because they have been conditioned to expect/love it by decades of Hollywood telling us this is how relationships are being conducted?

 

As for the rest of your response, I believe I disagree with what you refers to as feelings... Thinking about someone for a few seconds is not having feelings and comparing your date to another man is not expressing feelings towards this other man. These are thoughts and as long neither Shallan and Kaladin are prompt to act on them, they remain thoughts. Feelings? If they were true feelings, they would not have remained idle.

 

Having feelings from someone is truly powerful and it does not stop with a few thoughts. What is a girl having feelings for a boy? It is trying to nearly stalk the boy such as to know his routine in order to increase the chances to potentially fall on him by pure happenstance. It is try to multiple the occasions to stumble on him, by pure hazard, just so you could talk to him for a few seconds. It is also siting on bus stop bench for hours because knowing the boy would come this way, eventually and when he finally does, you claim you have been there a few minutes ago. It is also getting invited to parties where you know he would be there or stalk others simply to get the chance to glimpse at him. It is to endlessly stroll at night on the side-walk with a dedication bordering on madness waiting for him to get out of his party just so you could be near him for a few minutes. It is having your every thoughts being dedicated towards him, not just a few single ones. It is drawing stupid hearts with your names in it, not simply thinking of him as a smoldering rock. It is having butterflies inside each time you think of that person. It also is refusing to give up when said boy kisses another much better girl. It is keeping on to the idiotic stalking technique in hope it won't work out.

 

If Shallan indeed had feelings towards Kaladin, she would have tried to see him before they left, especially since he was injured. She would have try to meet him at Urithiru right after they got there, she would have produced a chance meeting just so she could be near him. She would not have cared about Adolin at all as all her thoughts would have been of Kaladin.

 

Had Kaladin truly had deep feelings about Shallan, he would not have needed to see her to have them: he would have had them by his own. He would have also seek her up in Urithiru upon arriving, if only to simply discuss being a Radiant. 

 

In other words, if these two were rippled by feelings as you assume, they would have been together at the end of WoR, not romantically, but they would have meet up, talk, showed some interest into their future and more importantly, Shallan would not have gone to Adolin. She did not have to, but she did.

 

So you see, I do not believe these thoughts Shallan had for Kaladin means "very strong evidence Shallan has feelings for Kaladin". I believe these thoughts means Shallan is doing what every single girl does, comparing two men, but these thoughts do not mean feelings. Feelings are much more powerful than mere thoughts. As for Kaladin, he does seem to have something stronger, but it is still not strong enough to prompt him to simply try to be near her.... as feelings are irrational, feelings make you do thinks you would have never done. I have not seen this from Kaladin. 

 

I thus do not believe the "evidence" at hand is sufficient to conclude that Shallan and Kaladin have deep feelings about each other. They don't. They have thought about each other, but nothing more. There is just not enough happening between these two and too much happening between Shallan and Adolin as again, she did not have to go to him at the end of WoR. She absolutely did not need to: she chose to.

[Ookla the Absent]

The question being written in the present tense, they pretty much hate each other, or at least annoy. Probably later, but for now, leai.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gargoyle