193 Pages in The Eye of the World

[Bigtones]

Hello and thank you for making such a robust community for the newbies of the Robert Jordan World.

 

I am in love with all things Sci-Fi and Fantasy and after reading the Mistborn Trilogy and The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson I could not help but be intrigued by the prospect of starting and finishing the series that has inspired 1000's of author's and BS as well.

 

Just got to The Stag and Lion Chapter 14, and I have to admit, the first 45 pages or so did not sell me on the book or the series because I went on reading it with a negative mindset.  Many people on the internet claim that this series is just too wordy and has too much description, blah blah blah so I believed them and decided to read this book with that mindset as well.  I put it down and thought to myself that I would never go back to it.  Thank goodness that I decided to not judge a 12000+ page book series on the first 45. I have to say that this has been one of the most enjoyable reads I have started in a very long time.

 

I feel like I am a part of Rand, Egwene and Co. I get lost in the words and sometimes have to reread parts because my imagination is taking me all over the place.  

 

I hope it continues to get better, it may get worse, but whatever happens the Wheel of Time has a new fan.

 

 

[Aethling]

For clean high fantasy, there are very few series that measure up. 

 

The main reason I like the series so much is that though there is magical and warfare violence, the cursing is covert, the sex scenes are left up to your imagination, and there is no overt rape in the entire series.  WoT can be read to or by any age group, not something I would say about any number of popular fantasy writers these days.

 

Probably the best thing about the series now is that it is over, and it is a great introduction to Sanderson's writing.

[Bigtones]

For clean high fantasy, there are very few series that measure up. 

 

The main reason I like the series so much is that though there is magical and warfare violence, the cursing is covert, the sex scenes are left up to your imagination, and there is no overt rape in the entire series.  WoT can be read to or by any age group, not something I would say about any number of popular fantasy writers these days.

 

Probably the best thing about the series now is that it is over, and it is a great introduction to Sanderson's writing.

I completely agree with your statement and is one of the reason I found myself putting down GRR Martin a couple of times between books...If every woman isn't naked, she's probably bent over or being beat up.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Bigtones

[Aethling]

I put down the first Martin book after about 60 pages because it started hinting at incest coming. 

 

About the only "sex scenes" in the WoT books are implied.  There is one where a guy and a girl go into an igloo and start kissing, and then another where a different set goes into a room.  Both cut to something else instead of being explict.

[king of nowhere]

I didn't knew there were so many people who have problems with sex or sexual violence. I have no problems with it, if it fit the story. not if it is fanservice.

What I like about wot is that it is a strong story. It is well made. It's difficult to say what''s so strong about it, but I'm reading now the sword of truth series and, men, I feel the difference. magic is some kind of omnipotent force that does whatever is convenient to the plot. the books are constantly solved by the protagonist pulling new skills out of his chull whenever he needs it in a totally deus ex machina way. there are plenty of moments that feel just clichè. I'd have stopped reading by now, But I become fond of the characters (I'll give that to terry goodkind: he's good at making characters I grow fond of) and want to see what happens to them.

The wheel of time avoids all of those common pitfalls of fantasy. it never feel stereotyped, and all the action makes sense andd is not just the magic solving everything because it's magic. On the other hand, I never felt fond for the characters. In fact, I'd have liked to bash them on the teeth with a baseball bat several times. But hey, if the characters in the wot talked to each other and took rational decisions, the whole thing would have been wrapped up in three books.

[Morsk]

I haven't read GRRM, but there's gore and sexual violence in Malazan, and I find it less disturbing than the WoT characters because of the context. Malazan presents those things as tragic, or the horrors of war; I don't like it, but no one's saying I'm supposed to like it. While in WoT, the characters engage in huge amounts of bullying, hazing, narcissism, and other cruelty, and it's presented as normal, even admirable. So WoT actually encourages the reader to treat people poorly, or at least to look the other way when others do, and I don't like that at all.

Maybe the negative stuff in WoT is easier to "tune out" since it's not graphic. It's made me genuinely upset dozens of times though, far more than any other story.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Morsk

[Voidus]

I always liked how WoT handled it, Dumai's Well would have been way less dramatic if we'd been acclimatized to that scale of violence already.

[Aethling]

The problem I have with most of the incidents of sex or sexual violence in fantasy is that the authors often don't need it, or don't need to do it more than once.  Sanderson has proven that good fantasy can be clean.  Goodkind's latter books basically turn into a rape fest.  Kate Elliot, has at least one rape or a virgin being seduced by magic in each book I have read of hers. 

 

I didn't mind the series in Wise Man's Fear all that much.  It actually fit in with the plot.  WoT does it perfectly for me.  Sanderson does it well.  The people are not prudes, but you also do not get a thrust by thrust accounting.  This opens both up to a wider audience which undoubtedly increases sales

[Lady_Yasha]

I haven't read GRRM, but there's gore and sexual violence in Malazan, and I find it less disturbing than the WoT characters because of the context. Malazan presents those things as tragic, or the horrors of war; I don't like it, but no one's saying I'm supposed to like it. While in WoT, the characters engage in huge amounts of bullying, hazing, narcissism, and other cruelty, and it's presented as normal, even admirable. So WoT actually encourages the reader to treat people poorly, or at least to look the other way when others do, and I don't like that at all.

 

If you're reading a book and stop to think, "huh, maybe bullying people isn't so bad after all," then it's not the book's fault. You just had shaky morals to begin with that could have been catalyzed by almost anything. Don't blame a book for that behaviour.

 

I don't think I've thought for one moment that WoT conveyed the negative traits of humanity as something admirable. There's a little compensation for the gender issues in WoT, in that their magic system has divided men and women distinctly. Because it's so prominent in the world it's affected the development of society in a way that both genders clearly define themselves in mimicry of this.

 

The bad things in WoT are nothing short of what history tells us is accurate in society back then, when WoT would likely have taken place in a mid-late Renaissance setting when gunpowder was just being developed. Everything you just mentioned was quite common back then thanks to the caste system and organised groups of founding philosophies, religions, and movements, similar to how the Children, the Aes Sedai, et al, exert their influence on people.

 

On another note: Keep rape out of books and you guys will be happy. Check.

 

Bigtones, it's well worth reading even if you feel you have to slog through the mid-section of the series. Though Path of Daggers and Crossroads of Twilight are the only ones that gave me grief you'll hear Winter's Heart dragged as well, despite that being my favourite. But keep reading for the end of A Memory of Light: You won't be disappointed, I can assure you.

[Morsk]

If you're reading a book and stop to think, "huh, maybe bullying people isn't so bad after all," then it's not the book's fault. You just had shaky morals to begin with that could have been catalyzed by almost anything. Don't blame a book for that behaviour.

You seem to be taking for granted that a reaction to a book has to be personal, when it doesn't. I'd take offense at a war myth that only presented the glory, not the causalities. WoT doesn't have that problem with war, but it does with hazing and torture. They're shown as glorious obstacles for our heroes to overcome, and not only never really hurt anyone, but in most cases make people stronger.

I saw your Mark Twain quote. I don't know if you've read his reasons for not reading Jane Austen, but it's that he finds the characters so unlikable that he's unable to finish reading the stories. That's all I'm saying here. Some people don't want to read graphic brutality. Other people, like Mark Twain and myself, don't want to read ridiculously unlikable characters. I did read end up reading them anyway in this case, but it was a big detraction for me.

[Lady_Yasha]

You seem to be taking for granted that a reaction to a book has to be personal, when it doesn't. I'd take offense at a war myth that only presented the glory, not the causalities. WoT doesn't have that problem with war, but it does with hazing and torture. They're shown as glorious obstacles for our heroes to overcome, and not only never really hurt anyone, but in most cases make people stronger.

I saw your Mark Twain quote. I don't know if you've read his reasons for not reading Jane Austen, but it's that he finds the characters so unlikable that he's unable to finish reading the stories. That's all I'm saying here. Some people don't want to read graphic brutality. Other people, like Mark Twain and myself, don't want to read ridiculously unlikable characters. I did read end up reading them anyway in this case, but it was a big detraction for me.

 

I don't think I ever saw the glory in Rand being tortured in Lord of Chaos, or Egwene being chained as a damane, or Mat being hung for knowledge. Rand had to contest with claustrophobia after those events, and a severe mistrust of all Aes Sedai that threatened to break alliances important to the survival of the world. Egwene's crippling hatred of the Seanchan almost destroyed their already shaky truce in A Memory of Light, and caused her to lash out several times in the past that left her and the people in her company with the repercussions. Mat didn't want the memories of dead men in his head, however useful they are, he didn't want to be a hero - he hates that stuff.

 

All their experiences and others have shown to have had negative consequences for the development of the character. I don't think we read the same books because I felt the horror that they had to endure and then live with even when they were free from it. How about Semirhage collaring Rand and making him hurt Min? It made Rand guilty and only strengthened his conviction that he had to protect everyone, which as you saw in the climax of AMoL almost destroyed him to let the Dark One win.

 

So no, I never saw them as "glorious." Obstacles yes, but they were natural in the sense that our characters didn't necessarily have to overcome them in a cliched fashion and tie them all in a pretty bow at the end. But rather how they dealt with them and was it even possible to overcome them, or did they just have to live with the scars beyond the final words of the last book.

 

Granted, you didn't like the books. That's fair. But I just can't see how you interpreted Robert Jordan's work as glorifying abhorrent behaviour. A reaction to a book is very much personal. If I decided to go out and scream "I'M THE DRAGON REBORN, BOW TO ME!!" in public then I've been affected on a personal level. Just as you would tell people who inquire about a review that it's not worth the effort. Likewise, if I started knife duels because it's okay in Ebou Dar people would call me insane (and rightly so).

 

If I go out and start deriding a woman because characters in WoT do it, it must be acceptable behaviour, right? I've interpreted that from the books personally. But we know it's bad, we can understand it's bad, and if you can't see why it's unacceptable behaviour then it's not the fault of the book. The book is not explicitly telling you to go outside and be a racist bigot just because the Tairens and Illianers are.

 

And yes, I know all about Mark Twain. But even he would agree that Mat is just awesome.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Lyrebon