Is Zahel The “Oathbringer”?

[Confused]

Abject speculation:

• Ishar = Vashar.
• The “Nahel” bond comes from “Zahel.”

One cannot ignore the similarities between Vashar and the original Bondsmith Ishar:

 

"But as for [ishar], his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

- WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph

 

Ishar is the “Oathbringer” referred to in the "in-world" book SLA3 is named for. Dalinar is clearly the focus of that novel, but I suspect we will learn a lot about Ishar through "Oathbringer."

 

Now, of all the people on Roshar, who knows more than Vasher about bonding investiture? Who is the most likely person to figure out “the nature of each bond’s placement” (WoR Chapter 35 Epigraph)? I believe this statement refers to the place on each Knight Radiant’s SpiritWeb to which the RadiantSpren must attach for a Knight to access his or her surges.

 

And what inventor/holder of Nightblood would have the means of “destroy[ing] each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws”? I believe this statement refers to the spren who imitated the Honorblades, rather than the Knights who may have wanted access to the surges. It is the spren who require implementation of the oaths, not the Knights themselves. Before Ishar's enforced agreement on the spren, the spren were "non-discriminating" as to whom they chose to bond with (other than the honorspren). Hence, the Alkavish troubles.

 

Add to that the striking similarity between ”Nahel” and “Zahel.” Nobody else we’ve met in the novels has a similarly-structured name. It’s not even Vorin-sounding (no symmetry). It’s as if Zahel simply decided to turn the “N” 90º into a “Z.”

 

As I said, abject speculation. But interesting…

Edited July 20, 2015 by Confused

[natc]

Only Nalthians can Return, AFAIK. The Heralds are said to have not left Greater Roshar since the Oathpact. To begin with, his name isn't even Vasher, and what a name looks like in English is irrelevant to someone who doesn't even know English.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

While i do believe Zahel has some history with the Heralds, i don't believe he is Ishar, although it has been RAFO'd a few times about whether or not the Heralds are native to Roshar or not, although on the other hand, that doesn't exactly give context as to whether that means they're pre-tranquiline halls exodus or born on Roshar. I think in regards to the Oathpact's restrictions, they might not apply due to aharietiam or at least they aren't as strict, given the Oathpact isn't completely broken.

 

This WoB doesn't support the name thing though

 

 Interview: Mar 13th, 2014

WOR-Omaha, NE

Kythis

The names Zahel and Nahel bonds are very similar. Is it coincidental?

Brandon Sanderson

It's part of the linguistics. They're based off of similar suffixes. They're the same suffix I believe.

 

As for his name....

Well Kalak is a Herald, and there is Kalad's phantoms, although i'm of the opinion that again it is just linguinstics.

 

As for Ishar imposing the restrictions on the spren alone, I have to disagree. Given that the Oaths are kind of a progression meter, and the more oaths you embody, the greater the benefits of the bond you'll receive (plate/blade etc), they probably would only be able to surgebind, although that is my view.

Edited July 20, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[yurisses]

For what it's worth:

Kythis

The names Zahel and Nahel bonds are very similar. Is it coincidental?

Brandon Sanderson

It's part of the linguistics. They're based off of similar suffixes. They're the same suffix I believe.

(source)

And Oathbringer is Dalinar's shardblade, the one he gave Sadeas. Though why his youth's shardblade is of great significance, we can still speculate yes.

[Confused]

First, a reminder: this was "abject speculation."

 

Second: BRANDON DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION! He did not say whether the names are coincidental. His answer was a distraction. In fact, his very distraction suggests he was hiding the answer. (On the "linguistics" question, I wrote a post last year arguing that Roshar must be a colony of Superman's home planet Krypton. Superman's father is Jor-el, his own name is Kal[adin]-el, and his mother's name is Lara[l]!)

 

Third, Yurisses (intended to rhyme with Ulysses?), the title of each SLA book is based on an "in-world" book. The Way of Kings is Nohadon's book inside The Way of Kings. Words of Radiance is the book Gaz delivered to Shallan (after Shallan lost Jasnah's copy in the shipwreck), inside Brandon's Words of Radiance. "Oathbringer," while coincidentally (or not) the name of Dalinar's former Blade, must also be an in-world book that's likely about Ishar (or so I believe).

 

Finally, Natc, of course what you say is true. But what's also true is that Brandon deliberately chose similar names in both cases. What are we to think about that? Pure coincidence? Twice? About the same character?

 

I don't recall reading that the Heralds have not left Greater Roshar since the Oathpact. That would be important in this context. I would appreciate the citation. Thanks, Natc!

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

I don't recall reading that the Heralds have not left Greater Roshar since the Oathpact. That would be important in this context. I would appreciate the citation. Thanks, Natc!

 

Here's a link to the WoB.  I couldn't quote it for some reason.

[Rockbud he/him]

I like the idea

[wallyrocket]

No quotes or WOB from me besides what's written in Warbreaker and WoR. 

Vasher is a scholar and not good with organization.  Denth ran circles around him with is coup planning.  Vasher was out of his depth in this arena.  He is a horrible people person.

To me this doesn't sound like someone who can "cause organization to be thrust upon" the KR.  The belligerent threatening does sound like him though.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I don't think Ishar would need to be a people person. The way I interpret that epigraph is he caused them to require the Oaths, resulting in a more organization among the surgebinders.

[Moogle]

"Oathbringer," while coincidentally (or not) the name of Dalinar's former Blade, must also be an in-world book that's likely about Ishar (or so I believe).

 

Brandon sort of talks about this in this recent WoB. The implication is that Oathbringer was the Blade's original name (no he does not outright say this), so my interpretation is that the book would have been named after the Blade. It's not enough to debunk the theory, though I note naming your sword after a Herald is a little sacrilegious if your theory is true.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Moogle

[maxal she/her]

 

 

Brandon sort of talks about this in this recent WoB. The implication is that Oathbringer was the Blade's original name (no he does not outright say this), so my interpretation is that the book would have been named after the Blade. It's not enough to debunk the theory, though I note naming your sword after a Herald is a little sacrilegious if your theory is true.

 

 

My interpretation of this WoB differs than yours. I understood some Shardblades had such a long history within Alethi soils, their names became a legend. Oathbringer was such a Blade, which is why the name was kept from bearer to bearer. Dalinar did not chose the name himself. However, those names are not the sprens original names, but simply names they acquire through fame. Besides Oathbringer does not sound like any spren name we have encountered so far except for the Stormfather, but he is a special case.

 

It also implies Adolin's Blade does not come from such tradition as it is unnamed, so either it is a foreign Blade or it is a very low profile one. Oathbringer, I'd wager is an utterly famous Blade I am convinced Dalinar won on the battlefield. 

[Moogle]

However, those names are not the sprens original names, but simply names they acquire through fame. Besides Oathbringer does not sound like any spren name we have encountered so far except for the Stormfather, but he is a special case.

 

I agree. To be clear, I meant "original owner" in the sense of the first owner after the Radiant discarded the Blade (and I think Brandon does as well). I do not think Oathbringer was the spren's name.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I take this WOB to mean something else from either of you, though similar to maxil's thoughts. 

 

First, let me say I doubt anyone, or hardly anyone, has a Blade named after it's spren. After all, the KR that we saw in the vision abandoned their Blades, the soldiers who took them wouldn't know their names, most likely.

 

What I think Brandon was saying is that at some point in the past, a previous shardbearer would have named his Blade, and that name would have passed on to the new owner in many cases. Though in other cases, the new owner may have changed the name, or not known what the Blade was called before.

 

Personally, I believe that Dalinar did give his Blade it's name to reflect the role it served in the unification of Alethekar's princedoms.

[Moogle]

What I think Brandon was saying is that at some point in the past, a previous shardbearer would have named his Blade, and that name would have passed on to the new owner in many cases. Though in other cases, the new owner may have changed the name, or not known what the Blade was called before.

 

Personally, I believe that Dalinar did give his Blade it's name to reflect the role it served in the unification of Alethekar's princedoms.

 

While I believe that your first paragraph here is correct, I'm not sure how you gathered the second bit.

 

Brandon was asked, essentially, whether or not Dalinar named his Shardblade after a book. His response was that Shardblades, in many cases, are named by previous owners and new owners keep the old name.

 

There's a few ways to interpret this, but the main one to me is that it is basically saying Dalinar did not originally name his Blade. This is not confirmed by any means, but it is the only interpretation that actually answers the person's question, and Brandon does tend to do that more often than not. (Brandon leaves whether the Blade was named for the book or the book named for the Blade unknown).

[Shardbearer he/him]

I didn't really gather that second bit. It's just a hunch that Dalinar wouldn't have won a Blade so appropriately named.

[kaellok he/him]

There's a few ways to interpret this, but the main one to me is that it is basically saying Dalinar did not originally name his Blade. This is not confirmed by any means, but it is the only interpretation that actually answers the person's question, and Brandon does tend to do that more often than not. (Brandon leaves whether the Blade was named for the book or the book named for the Blade unknown).

I was going to mention something about how the timeline of the Cosmere means that Vashar cannot be Ishar, due to Vashar being on Nalthis while Ishar was lounging about in a hot tub (unless it was a hot tub time machine?), but I had a more interesting idea.  At least, more interesting to me.

 

The WoB about Oathbringer suggests to me that it's not named after a book.  But!  Books are hardly the only thing that contain stories.  So, I'm thinking that the in-world Oathbringer is a song or chant of historical importance to someone.  Maybe a poem.  I'm thinking vikings and skalds!  Or maybe a little bit of the Listeners.  (We know the Blade is the same one as when he was younger; do we know when it was Named?)

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I was going to mention something about how the timeline of the Cosmere means that Vashar cannot be Ishar, due to Vashar being on Nalthis while Ishar was lounging about in a hot tub (unless it was a hot tub time machine?), but I had a more interesting idea.  At least, more interesting to me.

 

The WoB about Oathbringer suggests to me that it's not named after a book.  But!  Books are hardly the only thing that contain stories.  So, I'm thinking that the in-world Oathbringer is a song or chant of historical importance to someone.  Maybe a poem.  I'm thinking vikings and skalds!  Or maybe a little bit of the Listeners.  (We know the Blade is the same one as when he was younger; do we know when it was Named?)

 

Oathbringer actually is the name of a book.

[IAmTheBeard]

Just want to point out that both Nahel and Zahel are extremely typical Alethi (or, well, Vorin) words/names. Remember that the 'H' is used to replace a letter that would make the name symmetrical. We learn this from the in-world discussion of Nohadon's name. It's another method of making a name almost symmetrical. Also, taking a symmetrical word/name and adding a suffix to it is basically how many Alethi names we know are made. Kalak+in = Kaladin, etc. So I imagine that both of these names followed a similar progression: Zaz -> Zah -> Zahel. Nan -> Nah -> Nahel. Now, what's more interesting than the similarity to Zahel (who we're pretty sure can't be a herald), is the similarity of the word Nahel to Nan, both the number and the herald. Hmmm...

 

 

 

WOB

JAMHERETIC

How do you pick names?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It really varies based on the book. I'm often picking a linguistic paradigm. Alethi - there are two separate paradigms because I like linguistics to be messy. Usually based on symmetry being holy, so they'd pick names one letter off from symmetrical to avoid hubris. Also suffix - like Kaladin is Kalak (Herald) + din which is a suffix, all of them mean things, like the old Hebrew names have "born of" or "comes through". Stick that on and drop the last letter. Dalinar, Elhokar, all of those have suffixes - nar, kar.

TAGS

Brandon on writing

[maxal she/her]

It would be interesting of Oathbringer the book was written as the tales of a famous Shardblades. Dalinar being its current wielder would carry more weight as Alethkar most terrible warlord would be holding its most renown weapon.