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A trick for fighting Coinshots/Lurchers with ordinary metal


kroen

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Have a needles poking out of the handle of your knife/sword, welded into it, and when you hold it have the needle pierce your flesh. Inconvenient, sure, but can save your life.

 

Question: How did the trick with the coin inside Zane's mouth even worked? I thought a metal had to pierce your flesh or be in your stomach in order to not be affected by Allomancy. Otherwise, will holding a coing inside your fist also work? And if not, what's the difference?

Edited by kroen
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Question: How did the trick with the coin inside Zane's mouth even worked? I thought a metal had to pierce your flesh or be in your stomach in order to not be affected by Allomancy. Otherwise, will holding a coing inside your fist also work? And if not, what's the difference?

 

In order for a metal to be resistant to allomancy part of it needs to be inside the body.  One's mouth is part of the same tube as one's stomach so it counts.  As if for a coin inside a fist, I can't remember if it has been established but I do not believe it would be immune since it is still "outside" the body.

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Not to mention, there are a couple problems with this.

1: Having needles pierce your skin like that would leave a bunch of deep, gaping puncture wounds all over your hands, opening you up to contamination from dirt/debris/someone else's blood, infection, and also just very distracting pain. Also, have you ever handled a sword? You have to be able to move it around in your hands, shift your grip, etc. Those needles would rip your hands apart, only exacerbating the problems listed above. If the pain didn't distract you and get you killed in battle, a nasty blood infection would eventually do you in.

2: The needles would actually have to be fused to the blade before attaching the hilt, making it all one piece, or else this trick is useless. If the blade is a separate piece of metal, it can still be manipulated. Know any swordsmiths who want to go to that kind of ridiculous trouble? It's simply not worth the effort.

Believe it or not, I've seen this suggested on MBI as well, and we came to the same conclusion there: it's just not viable. The best way to combat Coinshots and Lurchers is to be an Allomancer yourself, or use weapons that can't be manipulated via Allomancy. That's why we have Hazekillers and aluminum bullets.

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In order for a metal to be resistant to allomancy part of it needs to be inside the body.  One's mouth is part of the same tube as one's stomach so it counts.  As if for a coin inside a fist, I can't remember if it has been established but I do not believe it would be immune since it is still "outside" the body.

 

This is an interesting point actually - how is the distinction made, Realmatically speaking? WHY exactly would embedded metal be resistant to Pushes/Pulls? I guess the inside/outside the body can be determined Cognitively (much like inside/outside the train in the time-bubble discussion), but I'm curious as to why this provides protection from Physical Allomantic effects, whereas being inside an inert object (a wall-safe, buried in plaster for example) offers no protection. Something to do with the Spiritual Realm? Perhaps Physical Allomancy is disrupted by the Spiritual presence of the soul? I'm just speculating wildly here.

 

Whilst I agree with KChan regarding sword-grips, I think it would work for a basic dagger (if you're only going to use it as a basic stabbing weapon).

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This is an interesting point actually - how is the distinction made, Realmatically speaking? WHY exactly would embedded metal be resistant to Pushes/Pulls? I guess the inside/outside the body can be determined Cognitively (much like inside/outside the train in the time-bubble discussion), but I'm curious as to why this provides protection from Physical Allomantic effects, whereas being inside an inert object (a wall-safe, buried in plaster for example) offers no protection. Something to do with the Spiritual Realm? Perhaps Physical Allomancy is disrupted by the Spiritual presence of the soul? I'm just speculating wildly here.

 

Whilst I agree with KChan regarding sword-grips, I think it would work for a basic dagger (if you're only going to use it as a basic stabbing weapon).

 

Metal embedded in a body is resistant because of innate investiture, so you were close with your speculation.  Technically it doesn't provide immunity because a strong enough allomancer can pull/push on metals inside a body as seen in the climax of TFE where Vin pulls on the Lord Rulers atiumminds.

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You would still have to move it around in your hands. Next time you handle a kitchen knife, count how many times you have to shift it around or adjust your grip, even minutely. There are a lot of subtle movements involved in handling a knife for even basic tasks, which would allow the needles to rip into your hand. Also, even if you could somehow hold it perfectly still, you'd still be opening yourself up to contamination and infection. Not to mention, have you ever tried to fight while something is stabbing you? It would be pretty darn distracting unless you're a Thug, and then you wouldn't need metal weapons to do some serious damage.

I would guess that the stipulation with when you can and can't manipulate metal has to do with Investiture. All people are said to have a small amount of Investiture within them; my guess is that this interferes with the ability to manipulate them with Allomancy, similar in spirit to how it's more difficult to manipulate Invested objects.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Weiry! Don't forget, though, that Vin was drawing on Preservation directly when she Pulled on the Lord Ruler's metalminds. I doubt someone burning normal metals could do it.

Edited by KChan
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I always thought it being inside of you would add it in as a part of your cognitive aspect, then  it became slightly part of your spiritual aspect as well, and from there the investure in you resisted the magic.

 

EDIT: Double ninja'd

Edited by Observer
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I always thought it being inside of you would add it in as a part of your cognitive aspect, then  it became slightly part of your spiritual aspect as well, and from there the investure in you resisted the magic.

 

That's a pretty interesting thought. I'm guessing you're taking a bit from the Emperor's Soul school of thought, then? The metal in question views itself as a part of you, therefore becoming part of a bigger whole which, being organic rather than metallic, cannot be Pushed or Pulled? Interesting. I'm sort of on the fence about it, but that's very intriguing. I'll have to think a little more on this.

 

 

If you can't affect metals in body with Allomancy because of investiture, then why can you affect the mind with Allomancy?

 

My guess is that it's because emotional Allomancy uses the spiritual to manipulate the cognitive, rather than the physical.

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You would still have to move it around in your hands. Next time you handle a kitchen knife, count how many times you have to shift it around or adjust your grip, even minutely. There are a lot of subtle movements involved in handling a knife for even basic tasks, which would allow the needles to rip into your hand. Also, even if you could somehow hold it perfectly still, you'd still be opening yourself up to contamination and infection. Not to mention, have you ever tried to fight while something is stabbing you? It would be pretty darn distracting unless you're a Thug, and then you wouldn't need metal weapons to do some serious damage.

 

I don't have an answer for the infection argument, however I still say using a knife as a shank is totally different from the subtle movements required to chop things with a kitchen knife. I think it's plausible.

 

As for the pain of having something sticking into you, totally valid. It would be distracting as hell. You would need a high pain threshold or a lot of acclimatisation to make it work. It may be feasible that a Hazekiller could be trained specifically to ignore that kind of pain.

 

The only real problem I see here is one of infection, and I don't see an easy solution to that anywhere. Even leaving the would to close around the metal (as with cosmetic piercing) doesn't solve the issue, as the wound will reopen when it experiences fresh trauma (such as when you successfully stab the victim, and the recoil jars the knife in your hand).

 

Good answers about Investiture interfering with pushes and pulls. I would also agree that Emotional Allomancy affects the cognitive/spiritual rather than the physical. This does leave me wondering as to the nature of Investiture in humans, and the interaction of the three Realms.

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EDIT: Ninja'd by Weiry! Don't forget, though, that Vin was drawing on Preservation directly when she Pulled on the Lord Ruler's metalminds. I doubt someone burning normal metals could do it.

 

Mwahahahaha!  Super Ninja powers activate...

 

I had figured it was just a matter of power like piercing a coppercloud.  I wonder if a lerasium mistborn spiked with allomanic duralumin and allomantic iron or steel burning those metals would be able to do it.  If they couldn't then no normal allomancer could.

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But the shots caused the Coinshot to Push himself away in alarm. They also left Miles sprayed with metal. Wax increased his weight and Pushed, though he found it hard to get a purchase on the birdshot. Any metal that pierced a person’s body or touched his blood was very difficult to affect with Allomancy.

Not sure if this means spattering with blood would work too. Still a bad idea, just less terrible. Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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A weapon piercing a hand would probably be most useful on a Thug/Bloodmaker twinborn, or Gold Compounder; but I agree that it just wouldn't be practical for a lot of weapons.

 

But, suppose someone loses most of their arm, and they try to replace it with a metal attachment... do you think that someone's metal arm could be manipulated by Allomancy? I'm guessing that it would depend on how it's attached, and for how long it's been attached?

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I actually had a similar kind of thought the other day, what if you used something like TLR's bracers to pierce you, which were then welded to some wire, which was welded to the sword. There's still a bit of a pain issue to get over but still preferable to be able to fight a bit poorly with a sword than well with just your fists.

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I actually had a similar kind of thought the other day, what if you used something like TLR's bracers to pierce you, which were then welded to some wire, which was welded to the sword. There's still a bit of a pain issue to get over but still preferable to be able to fight a bit poorly with a sword than well with just your fists.

If they're not hemalurgic, you've got issues with infection and stuff.

If they're hemalurgic, might as well make a hemalurgy blade. Steal physical strength from a kitten or something.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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If they're not hemalurgic, you've got issues with infection and stuff.

If they're hemalurgic, might as well make a hemalurgy blade. Steal physical strength from a kitten or something.

Not if you're careful with treating them, disinfect the metal first, actually easiest thing would be to use it like a proper piercing, wait for the flesh to heal over before you actually take it into a fight and get blood and dirt and stuff in the wound.

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