Forgery gaming the System with Hemalurgy

[LiquidBlue]

Forgery can be used to change an object by overwriting the history of an object. This can be used, for example, to give a person skills and physical attributes that they do not otherwise have.

 

It seems that aptitude with magic systems in the Cosmere is almost entirely a matter of genetics. So it does not seem reasonable that such aptitude could be granted through Forgery - there isn't an alternate history that would change genetics; howeve,, might Hemalurgy provide the trick?

 

Hemalurgy can be used to transfer magical aptitude from one individual to another. This is the type of alternate history that could be reasonably forged. For example, if Shai found herself on Scadrial, could she make an essence mark that gave her the history of having been transformed into a Steel Inquisitor? From there, with experience and exposure to other magical systems, could she forge into herself additional hemalurgically transfered abilities?

 

I guess that this could also be extended to inanimate objects. Could she for example Forge a metal spike into a Hemalurgical Spike? Could she forge an empty metal mind into a full one? Could she Forge an Awakened object?

 

I think the the biggest problem with this, is that making changes to the "soul" of an item or person are resisted, and ultimately non-permanent. Given the close link that magical aptitude has with the spiritual essence of a person, trying to effect such changes through forgery may be resisted or even impossible.

 

 

[Observer]

Forgery changes the cognitive aspect of an object, not the spiritual aspect. It wouldn't be able to create Investure, except the tiny bit the forgery itself possesses could be used.

 

EDIT: Poor wording in hindsight.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Observer

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think hemalurgy messes with spiritual stuff almost exclusively, and forgery generally messes with cognitive stuff.

[Observer]

And Lightweaving messes with physical stuff?

So, we have the realmatics screwmess trifecta?

[Voidus]

Yeah you'd run into issues forging Investiture into existence since it's Spiritual but then again, the cognitive aspect can affect the physical aspect, it might be able to affect the spiritual as well, 

[Observer]

I highly doubt Investure can be turned into more Investure though.

 

Maybe it would fake it as best it could?

[Voidus]

Well if it can create more matter then it's already violating thermodynamics, the energy has to come from a Shard somehow anyway so it might as well be just straight investiture.

[LiquidBlue]

Thank you for your replies, and knowledge.

 

Forgery changes the cognitive aspect of an object, not the spiritual aspect. It wouldn't be able to create Investure, except the tiny bit the forgery itself possesses could be used.

 

EDIT: Poor wording in hindsight.

 

 

Yeah you'd run into issues forging Investiture into existence since it's Spiritual but then again, the cognitive aspect can affect the physical aspect, it might be able to affect the spiritual as well, 

 

From what I understand, the cognitive realm should be able to make changes to the spiritual realm just as it changes the spiritual realm. But then again, perhaps the three realms are not on such an equal footing.

 

I highly doubt Investure can be turned into more Investure though.

 

Maybe it would fake it as best it could?

 

It certainly seems reasonable that there should be some sort of conservation law in effect; however, the interplay of Allomancy and Feruchemy means that this might not be the case.

 

In my original post, I was using Hemalurgy as the means that the forger uses to access an alternate history where they gain otherwise genetic magical aptitudes. 

 

As an aside, I know that travel to the cognitive realm is possible, but is travel to the spiritual realm possible as well? Familiarity and understanding is essential for making a forgery, thus in order to forge spiritual aspects maybe travel to the spiritual realm would be helpful.

 

Confining ourselves to Sel, I don't think that the process of becoming a Dhakor monk requires a special birth right as is required of Elantrians. So conceivably, Shai in some alternate history could have under gone the process to become a Dhakor monk. If so, could she create an essence mark that would give her this transformation? 

[Voidus]

It might actually be easier to change genetics, it could be possible to Forge yourself to have had different parents, which then leads to a change in your sDNA, and then abilities.

[Observer]

I'm still not sure that you could do that. It's like forging yourself into a Shard or into a TLR type figure. Yes, maybe you could shape your bones like a Dahkor, but I doubt that's all there is to it, and I think that's where the line is drawn. There can only be some much you can do.

[LiquidBlue]

I think that it is entirely reasonable that changes to the spiritual aspect is beyond the power of forgery. But I think that the clearly established limits of forgery already explain why it wouldn't be possible to forge oneself into a Shard or with the power of TLR. A Forgery can only make manifest an alternate history, and the more likely that alternate history the easier the forgery takes and the longer it lasts. There isn't an alternate history where one could have become a shard or TLR.

 

However, becoming a Dhakor Monk might be within the realm of alternate history possibility.

 

Although I guess even the novella hints at the limits of forgery. Shai had to recreate the mind of the Emperor, she or the reforgers could not simply apply a change to his history such that he was not injured in the attack. (Which should be relatively likely) What does this mean? How exactly does forgery work and what then are its limits?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'll throw in that some simpler questions about forgery are already pretty complicated

Actually, this is kind of a sillier followup to a silly question, but could you use Forgery to say 'actually, this half had 51% instead of 49%' and temporarily clone Miles?

Boy. That's a can of worms, right there...

Satsuoni ()

Is it possible to soul-Forge yourself to have, say, a network of of blood vessels that would work as a self-renewing seal?

Brandon Sanderson

Clever idea, but not viable. The vessels would be too squishy, for one thing.

More relevantly, I don't think it would make sense for hemalurgy to have huge reprecussions for the cosmere at large, if Forging could get all the same effects but at a lowercost.

[LiquidBlue]

I don't think that Forging could get all the same effects at a lower cost. I was merely wondering out loud if it was possible for Forging to temporarily copy the effects of Hemalurgy. I don't think that Forging could directly copy other types of magic, but that Forging the effects of Hemalurgy might grant access to those other types of magic. Thus it is still Hemalurgy which is such a powerfully disruptive magic.

 

In fact, I think that I'll post this question to Brandon if I get the chance:

 

"Suppose that a Forger such as Shai received a Shardblade. Could she then give away or lose the blade, but create an essence mark where she still possesed it. If she then applied the essence mark would she have access to the blade or a copy of it for the duration of the seal?"

 

I think that the answer to the question would be quite revealing. If Forging is limited by alternate histories, rather than an inability to to affect invesittures or the spiritual realm, such an alternate history should be fairly simple to effect.

[Voidus]

Well Forgery takes several months of research and not even a guarantee of it taking, Hemalurgy just has different costs I'd say.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well Forgery takes several months of research and not even a guarantee of it taking, Hemalurgy just has different costs I'd say.

One steel spike seems pretty much the same as any other. Once you've got the soulstamp formula for saying 'by the way this was an inquisitor eyespike', it should work on any of them.

[Voidus]

One steel spike seems pretty much the same as any other. Once you've got the soulstamp formula for saying 'by the way this was an inquisitor eyespike', it should work on any of them.

Not from everything we know about Forgery it shouldn't any spike would have its own unique history, and you couldn't just say 'Then it became an Inquisitor spike' you'd have to think up how that specific spike could have come into contact with someone from another planet in exactly the right place.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Not from everything we know about Forgery it shouldn't any spike would have its own unique history, and you couldn't just say 'Then it became an Inquisitor spike' you'd have to think up how that specific spike could have come into contact with someone from another planet in exactly the right place.

It's like remembering. Once you've got a generic formula (this pot was from the old era BTW), it isn't that hard to reapply it to any old pot.

[Voidus]

Perhaps if all of the pots were identical, came from the same maker, same source of clay and were all kept together at all times. But Forging a pot that has been kept in a rundown shack into an ancient greek masterpiece is going to be significantly harder and different from forging one that's been kept in a palace or even museum into the same thing, you rewrite its history, not what it is.

[LiquidBlue]

In general knowing the history of an object is required before it can be forged into something else. However I think that this is a function of the difficulty of the forgery itself. During her escape, Shai used the same stamp on multiple different objects. That is, she had a stamp that would cause a wooden object to rot and weaken. In this case she didn't have to expressly describe how a particular bed or door would have been neglected. It was a little bit more general.

 

I am sure that it helped that both objects were property of the palace and supposedly the responsibility of many of the same people for maintenance.

 

I started this thread wondering if Forgery could be used to "game" the system, but aside from any questions about the ability for Forgery to affect Investiture or Spiritual qualities, I now recognize that there is another large limitation. Forgery is geographically limited, Seals lose their power with distance from MaiPon. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=949#7

 

So even if a forger could gain sufficient familiarity with Hemalurgy, or a ShardBlade, (maybe even with Lerasium), a soulstamp based on this knowledge would only work in the area near MaiPon unless there was some way to get around the geographic limit.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

It's possible to adapt geography-based magic to work elsewhere, but it takes effort to do so, and we don't know any of the details.

[Vortaan he/him]

It's worth noting that all the magic on Sel is region based. I'd be curious if you could even get Forging to work in Teod, let alone mimic a completely different magic system.

[Voidus]

It's worth noting that all the magic on Sel is region based. I'd be curious if you could even get Forging to work in Teod, let alone mimic a completely different magic system.

There are work around, we just don't know what they are, but that wouldn't effect the Seal as long as it was used in the correct region, it shouldn't change it's ability to work on other magic.

[Chromium Compounder]

It's possible to adapt geography-based magic to work elsewhere, but it takes effort to do so, and we don't know any of the details.

It may be possible to adapt them. Brandon hinted it might be doable, but he didn't come out and say it.

Not that I don't think it is possible. I think it is, but doing so would be like puzzling out a new language. I think Brandon put this difficulty in because the geography based magics are SO powerful, and so dynamic. There's pretty much always something that can be done to get past any problem with them, so long as you are good enough with the art.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Chromium Compounder

[Phantom Monstrosity]

It may be possible to adapt them. Brandon hinted it might be doable, but he didn't come out and say it.

Not that I don't think it is possible. I think it is, but doing so would be like puzzling out a new language. I think Brandon put this difficulty in because the geography based magics are SO powerful, and so dynamic. There's pretty much always something that can be done to get past any problem with them, so long as you are good enough with the art.

Nah, he's said outright that it's doable in the latest AMA.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/c9fs0ea?context=3

Hey Brandon! Thanks for always being so cool like this and on my birthday no less! So, my questions. (Contains Miscellaneous SPOILERS)

1) If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal?

1a) If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it?

1b) Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

2) Can any person absorb a Shard? Or do they have to be somewhat "magical"? (Like Vin and SazeD)

3) Can someone use their native world's magic system on a different planet? (Ex. Would Galladon be able to use Aons on Roshar?)

4) Were any of the other magic systems of Sel affected by the fall of Elantris, such as soulforging?

5) Finally, when am I allowed to start telling everyone about what happens in Steelheart? (That one's a joke!)

Thanks again and happy writing!

1) The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

2) One does not have to be somewhat magical, so to speak, but it does help.

3) Plausible. Certain things would need to be done.

4) No.

5) When it's out!

There's also this, so it looks like it isn't just 'altering your local symbols to match'

In The Emperor's Soul and Elantris the magic systems have very different methods and powers, though both work through symbols. Assuming they adapted the symbols to their local geography could they use each other's methods? Could an Elantrian forge a soulstamp say?

Brandon Sanderson

Birth in a certain location on Sel gives a certain affinity for the local symbols, and their usage. To use the magic of another region, one would need to have a rewritten connection to that area instead.

[Chromium Compounder]

So, then the question is how do you get a 'rewritten connection to that area'?  Doesn't sound simple.