Jasnah Faking Fake Soulcasting

[Oudeis he/him]

On one level I'd like to simply point out how odd Jasnah's Soulcasting is. We now know it was always Surgebinding, yet she successfully convinced people it was only via her Soulcaster. I would be surprised to discover her mother never once saw the Soulcaster or saw her daughter Soulcast, and if she did, Jasnah successfully fooled a scholar of fabrial science (though, by her own admission, more like a Master's than a PhD.) In all the times we see her Soulcast, of which there are more than a few, she's never noted to ever inhale any Stormlight, or to glow. In fact, when she first Soulcasts that boulder to free Taravangian's granddaughter, she inhales, and the stones themselves glow more brightly. If she were draining their power, they'd dim, and she'd glow. She also comments that the stone is very large and will take a lot of Stormlight to Soulcast; presumably in a dark corridor she could not get away with glowing unnoticed.

 

How does she do it? How does she Soulcast without seeming to Invest, herself? How does she fake a powerful fabrial? The simplest answer is, she's one of the best Surgebinders we've seen yet, and she simply knows how to do things Shallan or Kaladin don't. (If this next book does focus on Dalinar, I guess we can get used to people still stumbling and trying to get used to their Surgebinding.) In other words, RAFO.

 

However. I'd like to talk about something a little different right now. At one point, Jasnah burns words onto a page.

 

How on earth do you do that, with the mechanism we know of for Soulcasting? When she wants to inscribe the letter S, does she search the cognitive realm for "the cognitive aspect of the indistinguishable tiny fraction of this page in the shape of the letter S and properly kerned to my paragraph thus far"?

[Guest]

This needs spoiler tags, and a less spoilery title.

[Arondell]

I was under the impression that Stormlight Archive related information doesn't need spoiler tags if it is in the Stormlight Archive forum.  Has this policy changed?

[Guest]

When Shallan is attempting to transform Stick, she offers Stick Stormlight that is still contained in a gemstone. I also seem to recall that gem type matters for Surge-Soulcasting, which would mean that the Stormlight has to come from a gem and not from the Radiant.

Based on that, when she Soulcasts the stone, her gem likely glows brighter because she's putting Stormlight INTO the gem FROM herself (Stormlight sucked from the gems in her safepouch, maybe?)

Don't know how she hides her glowiness, though maybe she never held the light and her body acted more like a conducting wire instead? I'm guessing.

As for the words in the page... Maybe she didn't burn the page to add the letters, but rather Soulcast the paper into paper with the words she wanted burned into it?

(Page/chapter reference so I can read the exact passage?)

[Arondell]

 

There was also the one of Jasnah burning words after running out of ink. When Shallan had seen her burning letters into a page, she’d been amazed at the Soulcaster’s precision.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 501). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

[Guest]

I was under the impression that Stormlight Archive related information doesn't need spoiler tags if it is in the Stormlight Archive forum. Has this policy changed?

I just checked, and you're right. I thought that only applied to Cosmere Theories.

Still think the title shouldn't have Jasnah's name in it, just in case someone wanders into the section by accident.

[king of nowhere]

when shallan is holding an illusion, she does not glow. so there are some precedents for not glowing.

[Oudeis he/him]

Maybe she didn't burn the page to add the letters, but rather Soulcast the paper into paper with the words she wanted burned into it?

 

A few issues. The main being that the quote makes it clear that she's burning it at least letter by letter. But there are others.

 

To Soulcast an entire page, she'd have to be able to see in her mind the entire page full of text all in one go, every comma, every diacritic mark, every dipthong.

 

Also she says she's not good with organics. And can you Soulcast something into two pages at once? If paper is like earth paper, it's plant material. Even if we don't assume Shallan saw actual fire, wouldn't the charred bits be more like smoke than plant?

[ecohansen]

The simplest solution (not that I'm happy with it) is that Jasnah was using a stylus to do the burning.  She soulcast the tip of the stylus into fire, and Shallan was impressed that Jasnah maintained the heat consistently enough and narrowly enough to use the stylus as a sustitute pen (she would have to simultaneously convince the tip itself to be fire, while encouraging the wood just above the tip to hold firm in Stickism, and resist the urge to become fire).

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I was under the impression that she was just Soulcasting fire with excellent precision, i mean this is Jasnah we're talking about. We don't really know how much initial Stormlight is required for a desired result but in regards to glowiness, couldn't Kaladin hold a small but fair amount before he began to glow, therefore she'd be able to transfer the Stormlight without being detected.

 

 Well, she has 6/7 years on other Surgebinders, taking into account Ivory's unwillingness to take her to Shadesmar completely, 

her use of the Transportation Surge might not be as well developed as her Transformation Surge, in which she could have developed it to a much a higher level where she's learnt how to Soulcast incredibly quickly and efficiently, making the required Stormlight quantity a lot lower. Just a guess

Edited July 4, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[yurisses]

I was under the impression that Stormlight Archive related information doesn't need spoiler tags if it is in the Stormlight Archive forum.  Has this policy changed?

 

Whatever the rules, the thread title appears on the forum front page. For the sake of those who haven't finished or started WoK, it'd be better to change the title...

[Oudeis he/him]

Well I can't edit the title anymore. I'm sorry and I'll try to be more careful.
 

I was under the impression that she was just Soulcasting fire with excellent precision

I think you're missing the point. We know the model of Soulcasting is, you experience Shadesmar, locate the cognitive aspect of the thing you want to change, and change it. But she's not changing the whole page. Does this mean you can get the cognitive aspect of the entire page, but convince only specific parts of it to change? Does she create the cognitive aspect for "the part of the page in the shape of an S i want to change" by thinking about it?

 

Precision doesn't really come into it. We already know Soulcasting isn't like aiming a Transmogrifying Ray and pulling the trigger.

[Guest]

Precision doesn't really come into it. We already know Soulcasting isn't like aiming a Transmogrifying Ray and pulling the trigger.

What if she was doing a Spren-Carried Soulcasting? Like when Shallan attaches her Illusion to Pattern.

So she'd "cast" an Air->Fire Soulcast, attach it to Ivory, and then Ivory would form the letters with her body... know what? This is getting absurdly complicated. I thought I had something until I started explaining it.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Interesting topic. I believe its a demonstration of Jasnah's expertise at soulcasting. Changing only a part of the paper instead of the whole thing means Jasnah is at her peak of soulcasting expertise. On the question of whether it's should be actually possible or not to do something like this is debatable. While I have no definite idea how to force only a part of a paper's cognitive aspect to change, I think it's only a step up from changing the whole thing.

Here let me point out the example of half lashings which means only half of an object's spiritual bond is changed. Granted lashings and soulcasting have entirely different mechanisms (one is spiritual other is cognitive) yet we can draw some parallels between a half lashing and selectively soulcasting portions of paper into fire.

Disclaimer: posting after a long gap. So naturally I must got a few things wrong. Just don't eat me OK.

[Patrick Star]

Soulcasting is different than other surges.

 

You don't actually need to invest anything, you transport the stormlight directly from the gem to the object you're soulcasting.

 

As for why the gems glow brighter, that could be a function of the stormlight being transferred.  Or maybe concentrated.

[Edgedancer he/him]

No one in the entire world was tipped of by her "Soulcaster," a presumed holy relict, lacking any kind of records connected to it and that after years of using it she shows no signs of the mutation developed by the people actual using the fabrials. In all honesty, she propably could start glowing while soulcasting and no one would think that she isn't actually using a fabrial, because Jasnah.

[Guest]

No one in the entire world was tipped of by her "Soulcaster," a presumed holy relict, lacking any kind of records connected to it and that after years of using it she shows no signs of the mutation developed by the people actual using the fabrials. In all honesty, she propably could start glowing while soulcasting and no one would think that she isn't actually using a fabrial, because Jasnah.

Soulcasters are holy, but not necessarily Relics. I seem to recall someone (Navani?) commenting that "Modern" Soulcasters are somehow inferior to ancient ones.

The Soulcaster "mutation" is a result of extreme usage over the course of years, so there's no reason to expect Jasnah to be affected by that yet.

You're probably right about if she were to suddenly start Glowing.

Edited July 4, 2015 by LabRat

[Edgedancer he/him]

Soulcasters are holy, but not necessarily Relics. I seem to recall someone (Navani?) commenting that "Modern" Soulcasters are somehow inferior to ancient ones.

The Soulcaster "mutation" is a result of extreme usage over the course of years, so there's no reason to expect Jasnah to be affected by that yet.

You're probably right about if she were to suddenly start Glowing.

Really? Any idea where that was, because I'm pretty sure that Surge based fabrials are still lost to modern society as is proper Shardplate. (Although they do have an inferior shield version of plate so maybe that is what you remember?)

 

She certainly is using it rather liberal, even for writting at times, so I don't see why she shouldn't show at least some minor symptoms by now, if she were using a fabrial.

[natc]

Soulcasters are holy, but not necessarily Relics. I seem to recall someone (Navani?) commenting that "Modern" Soulcasters are somehow inferior to ancient ones.

The Soulcaster "mutation" is a result of extreme usage over the course of years, so there's no reason to expect Jasnah to be affected by that yet.

You're probably right about if she were to suddenly start Glowing.

Makes me wonder.

Was this perceived inferiority to ancient soulcasters partially due to tales of ancient soulcasting mostly using Radiants as the subject matter as well as fabrial soulcasters?

I'd imagine a Radiant can do more spectacular things than a machine can.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

My memory is a little rusty but don't modern fabrials have spren imprisoned inside them. While we have seen Radiants of old using fabrials based on Surges, those fabrials most definitely didn't have spren trapped inside them.

Since the Soulcasting fabrials used in present day are Surge based fabrials, its unlikely their technology has been reproduced yet. So these soulcaster fabrials are most likely relics from an older period in Roshar's history and considered holy as well.

[Guest]

“Shardblades. Shardplate. Even modern fabrials are nowhere near as good. So where did the ancients get weapons so amazing?”

I'm still looking, but I did find this. I may have been thinking of Fabrials in general, which Soulcasters are a type of.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Well I can't edit the title anymore. I'm sorry and I'll try to be more careful.

 

I think you're missing the point. We know the model of Soulcasting is, you experience Shadesmar, locate the cognitive aspect of the thing you want to change, and change it. But she's not changing the whole page. Does this mean you can get the cognitive aspect of the entire page, but convince only specific parts of it to change? Does she create the cognitive aspect for "the part of the page in the shape of an S i want to change" by thinking about it?

 

Precision doesn't really come into it. We already know Soulcasting isn't like aiming a Transmogrifying Ray and pulling the trigger.

True, but Soulcasting does require skill, which would then logically lead to precision. We know Jasnah is very strong willed and is all about maintaining a form of control,so along with the experience and practice (which she might well have gained), she could possibly able to do a number of feats that for example Shallan can't do (yet). Personally, I'm in the boat that she changed specific parts of the page but as to how, I'm not sure. We've only seen limited examples of advanced Soulcasting like these, but I'm thinking it is just the simple answer you gave; she is the most advanced/skilled Surgebinder we've seen as of yet, however she is also only the second we've seen using the Transformation surge so we'll see

[Oudeis he/him]

True, but Soulcasting does require skill, which would then logically lead to precision.

 

You're still kind of missing my point. I have a light switch that controls 8 bulbs at once. I could flip that switch a million times, get as skilled at flipping that switch as possible, and I'll never be able to use it to turn on three specific of the bulbs, leaving the other five off.

 

Yes, I understand she's better. I'm not trying to say, "This book is clearly lying, she can't do that." I'm saying, this is the model we currently have from direct experience in the book, yet Jasnah does something that, however skilled she gets, shouldn't be possible within that model. I was asking if anyone had an alternate model that might explain what she did.

 

Saying that she's more skilled and more precise is something everyone already knows and agrees with and doesn't tell us anything new.

[Voidus]

Pretty sure that the Ardents Soulcast buildings out of air at some point, which is essentially the same thing. (Soulcasting a small subset of air rather than all of it)
But my opinion is that Jasnah knows how to Soulcast in a somewhat different manner, especially since she's also used it on living beings to kill them which seems unlikely, Shallan had trouble convincing a stick not to be a stick, it'd be a lot harder to convince a person to self-immolate in the span of 2 milliseconds.
That being said the potential model I'd use is that we are talking about the cognitive realm here, Jasnah as the person using the piece of paper is probably the primary source for its cognitive identity, if she really believed that it was a bunch of different letter-shaped pieces of paper that were stuck together then Shadesmar would probably reflect that.

[Seloun]

The most important caveat is that this is Shallan thinking that the words were Soulcast. We don't know for sure that that's actually how Jasnah accomplished it; in fact, one could argue that Shallan's amazement is a clue that the letters weren't Soulcast after all. That said, I'm not sure that Transportation explains the phenomenon any better (remote candle-thrower?), though the 'burning brand' solution still works. It's also unclear if the words were actually burned into the page, or if that's Shallan's explanation since she assumes the Soulcaster is specifically attuned to the three elements.

 

Regarding Soulcasters - at least as far as Shallan is aware of, there are two categories (lesser/greater) of Soulcasters:

 

 

It was true; Jasnah really did have a functioning Soulcaster. And a powerful one too. Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed rock buildings out of air or cloth. A greater one, like Jasnah’s, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one. How it must grate on the ardents that such a powerful, holy relic was in the hands of someone outside the ardentia. And a heretic no less!

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 91). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Shallan implies the Soulcasters are ancient tech, not modern:

 

 

The other fabrials she’d used had been simple to activate, but those were constructed by contemporary artifabrians. Soulcasters were fabrials from ancient times. They wouldn’t employ modern methods of activation. She stared at the glowing gemstones suspended on the back of her hand. How would she figure out the method of using a tool thousands of years old, one forbidden to any but ardents?

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 566). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Jasnah provides some additional evidence:

 

 

“And the ardents,” Shallan said. “Those who Soulcast? Do they actually use fabrials, or is it all a hoax?”

 

“No, Soulcasting fabrials are real. Quite real. So far as I know, everyone else who does what I—what we—can do uses a fabrial to accomplish it.”

 

...

 

“Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 978-979). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

All Soulcasters are apparently ancient tech; there aren't any 'modern' Soulcasters (though on first read I assumed the 'lesser' Soulcasters were modern, due to Jasnah's use of 'original'). It's also worth noting that the Ars Arcanum's description of modern fabrials (which is worded to sound pretty comprehensive) has no mention of Soulcasters.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Seloun