Falling in Shardplate

[maxal]

 

Sorry, you are spectacularly wrong in this. first of all, to reach terminal velocity you need at least a hundred meters of freefall, possibly more. renarin was falling from 3-4 meters, top.

 

Adolin has blasted his helmet on several occasions. Renarin did not even come close. In other words, Renarin is doing beginner's exercises which are harmless. If whatever Renarin is doing was harming him in any way, then we have a large bunch of seriously cripples Shardbearer around camp. Dalinar should have been a vegetable by then... so no matter how the mechanism works, we can safely say Shardbearers are not getting concussion from taking a hit on their helmet.

[VindicationKnight]

 

Adolin has blasted his helmet on several occasions. Renarin did not even come close. In other words, Renarin is doing beginner's exercises which are harmless. If whatever Renarin is doing was harming him in any way, then we have a large bunch of seriously cripples Shardbearer around camp. Dalinar should have been a vegetable by then... so no matter how the mechanism works, we can safely say Shardbearers are not getting concussion from taking a hit on their helmet.

 

Or indeed, bruising and breakages from blows elsewhere.

[maxal]

Or indeed, bruising and breakages from blows elsewhere.

 

Yeah... Poor Shardbearers would spend their lifetime nursing broken bones and bruises.... The only times we have seen Adolin get injured is when he was out of his Plate.

[Patrick Star]

 

Adolin has blasted his helmet on several occasions. Renarin did not even come close. In other words, Renarin is doing beginner's exercises which are harmless. If whatever Renarin is doing was harming him in any way, then we have a large bunch of seriously cripples Shardbearer around camp. Dalinar should have been a vegetable by then... so no matter how the mechanism works, we can safely say Shardbearers are not getting concussion from taking a hit on their helmet.

 

It's not the force from the hit that I'm talking about.  It's the sudden change of direction.  Completely different things.

[Oudeis]

People seem to be talking at somewhat cross-purposes... I feel like most people are saying, "Headblows happen all the time, so it's not just this one example, clearly something is keeping people from being concussed." You, Patrick, seem to be repeating that whether or not the helmet is strong enough not to be crushed, it's still odd that people don't suffer concussions. Neither statement is contradictory, and both are very true. I think we all agree more than is currently apparent.

 

I'm just gonna repeat that Plate strengthens your body, and I suspect this is a large part of why you don't get concussed. Your brain is just physically more resilient while you're in Plate, the same way your muscles are stronger and you heal from leg wounds faster.

[Patrick Star]

I'm just gonna repeat that Plate strengthens your body, and I suspect this is a large part of why you don't get concussed. Your brain is just physically more resilient while you're in Plate, the same way your muscles are stronger and you heal from leg wounds faster.

 

Yeah, that's probably the most likely explanation.  I had thought of shardplate more of a powered exoskeleton.  If that was the case, Eshonai would be able to walk with the leg wound because her leg isn't actually doing anything, and the shardplate's doing all the work.

 

This would be a really good question to ask Brandon about.

[king of nowhere]

blows to the head and falling on your head are two completely different things.

if you are hit on your head, the armor absorb the blow, and it transmits it to all the rest of the body. there is no acceleration of the brain, cause your head does not change motion fast. if you fall on your head, your brain is moving and suddeny stops, and that is goinf to create problems no matter how hard the helmet is. however, a few meters would not be enough for damage if the helmet is somewhat elastic/well padded and therefore can cause the brain to decelerate gradually.

[maxal]

Oh crap. I accidentally downvoted Oudeis. Stupid touchscreen. Could someone fix it?

 

It's not the force from the hit that I'm talking about.  It's the sudden change of direction.  Completely different things.

 

People seem to be talking at somewhat cross-purposes... I feel like most people are saying, "Headblows happen all the time, so it's not just this one example, clearly something is keeping people from being concussed." You, Patrick, seem to be repeating that whether or not the helmet is strong enough not to be crushed, it's still odd that people don't suffer concussions. Neither statement is contradictory, and both are very true. I think we all agree more than is currently apparent.

 

I'm just gonna repeat that Plate strengthens your body, and I suspect this is a large part of why you don't get concussed. Your brain is just physically more resilient while you're in Plate, the same way your muscles are stronger and you heal from leg wounds faster.

 

I think we all agree Renarin jumping on his head, which was the original question, in what appears to be standard exercises every single trainee goes through are not causing concussions.

 

I also tend to agree with Oudeis. Clues at hand does imply the Plate strengthen your body. It makes sense. Back in WoK, Adolin stipulates wearing a Plate nullified the age difference between him and his father. Eshonai wears her Plate as it enables her to ignore her injury. Adolin does the same after being beaten down by Szeth. He goes Blade throwing on the next morning and states he wouldn't be able to do it if he weren't wearing his Plate due to the large bruises on his right side. So it does seem as if wearing a Plate gives you additional strength. 

 

However, wearing a Plate does not prevents you from wearing yourself out. We see both Dalinar and Adolin exhaust themselves while wearing their Plate. So whether or not it gives you additional endurance, you can still run out. As for Renarin's fits, it has been understood wearing the Plate would nullified them or so it seem Dalinar thinks it will work out.

 

Asa for Patrick interrogation, we have Adolin feeling quite disoriented while being thrust into the air. During the hunt in WoK, he gets hit by the chasmfiend claw, thrust into the air 50 feet high then crashes down hard on the ground. He describes his physical state a being dizzy and needs a few moments to regain his balance. It does not seem as if he suffered any head injury at the time: his feelings seemed more akin to those of an individual steeping out of a rapidly spinning amusement park ride. The same could be said when he gets thrust out of Surebloood's back.

[MistLord]

Kaladin can fall the depth of the chasm comfortably by doing nothing other than holding Stormlight. It's under my own opinion that Shardplate is somehow able to mimic this ability, though understandably I won't be able to prove it as much as the rest of you lot. 

[natc]

Though frankly chances are Kaladin would've fractured some bones and be fine in seconds.

When he fell off with Shallan neither seemed all that comfortable.

[Patrick Star]

Though frankly chances are Kaladin would've fractured some bones and be fine in seconds.

When he fell off with Shallan neither seemed all that comfortable.

 

Yeah, that's what happened during the duel.  He broke his legs kicking a shardbearer, and they instantly healed.

 

He was probably uncomfortable in the chasms because he just killed Syl.  That would make me uncomfortable any day.

[natc]

As in both of them were pretty beat up by the end of it all.

It's probably a lot easier to land properly when you jump off on purpose and fully expect to intentionally break your legs.

[VindicationKnight]

As in both of them were pretty beat up by the end of it all.

It's probably a lot easier to land properly when you jump off on purpose and fully expect to intentionally break your legs.

Well, it's hard to say with Kaladin, one of the Windrunner's powers seems to convert the energy from a fall into a 'shockwave' that pushes out from them, so it's hard to tell when he's just tanking fall damage and when he's negating it.

[Voidus]

Well the Half-Shards that can stop Shardblades are said to be basically normal shields with a Durability-enhancing Fabrial attached, assuming Shardplate works on similar principals it may enhance the durability of the wearer as well as the Plate itself.

[maxal]

 

Kaladin can fall the depth of the chasm comfortably by doing nothing other than holding Stormlight. It's under my own opinion that Shardplate is somehow able to mimic this ability, though understandably I won't be able to prove it as much as the rest of you lot. 

 

It is stated on a few occasions that Shardplate would not be strong enough to resist a fall down the chasm. Had Adolin fallen, he would have probably been killed despite wearing his Plate whereas Kaladin was able to survive without any damage while holding a glimmer of stormlight as he killed Syl in the process. 

 

 

As in both of them were pretty beat up by the end of it all.

It's probably a lot easier to land properly when you jump off on purpose and fully expect to intentionally break your legs.

 

They were both physically uninjured after the fall. It has also been my impression Kaladin is more gifted than the average to heal himself... Brandon did state the ability was not equal in all knights.

[Oudeis]

Well the Half-Shards that can stop Shardblades are said to be basically normal shields with a Durability-enhancing Fabrial attached, assuming Shardplate works on similar principals it may enhance the durability of the wearer as well as the Plate itself.

 

Eh, I don't believe this to be a valid assumption. It's both shown and stated throughout the books that "ancient" fabrials (Soulcasters, Shardblades, Shardplate) all operate under very different basic principles than "modern" fabrials like spanreeds, heaters or half-shards.

[Voidus]

Eh, I don't believe this to be a valid assumption. It's both shown and stated throughout the books that "ancient" fabrials (Soulcasters, Shardblades, Shardplate) all operate under very different basic principles than "modern" fabrials like spanreeds, heaters or half-shards.

Well Shardblades and presumably Plate too weren't really fabrials and I have my theories on Soulcasters but also half-shards were explicitly designed to try to emulate an aspect of Shardplate so even if that's generally speaking true given that imitation was the whole point I'm inclined to believe Half-Shards may have more in common with Plate than the spanreed.

[Oudeis]

Just because they were trying to emulate function doesn't mean they replicated principle. Doesn't Dalinar or Navani say something about how, even though they can stop a Shardblade, Halfshards operate on a different principle than Plate?

 

If someone from the past were somehow able to watch a car drive along, they might get inspired to make a similar vehicle. But, since they never saw under the hood, let alone had the complex process of internal combustion explained to them, there's every chance they would come up with something that fits the outward appearance of "a four-wheeled horseless conveyance" but operated on an entirely different principle, like clockwork or steam.

 

Or, think of it another way. An electric car and a diesel car both perform the same function in outwardly similar ways. Yet the motors are incredibly different.

 

Since it's stated in the books that no one has the first idea how Plate or Blade, or any of the ancient Fabrials, work, I think balance of evidence suggests that the Halfshards probably have almost nothing in common with Plate.

[Voidus]

Well I'd point out that there are a limited number of ways to achieve the same end, other than increasing durability (Which obviously the Shardplate already does) there might be no way to block a Shardblade. Simply being invested doesn't seem to work, or if it does it needs levels of Investiture far beyond what Shardplate is supplied with. But agree to disagree I guess, the connection was really just a way to mire the theory in already established canon but it holds without it, I'd speculate that Shardplate increases the durability of its wearer even without the example of half-Shards to work off of.

[IAmTheBeard]

About the problem of Shardplate blocking a fall (as opposed to blocking an external blow), any elastic or cushioning effect that the Plate has will be just as effective against an internal blow. If the Plate takes twice as long to stop moving when it hits the ground (because of elasticity, padding, or even crumpling) then it halves the deceleration undergone by the entire body, including the brain. This works under the same principles as car crashes and is why car bodies are designed to crumple. Prolonging the impact lessens the force involved and thus the acceleration, which, as pointed out above, is what hurts our brains.

 

Another interesting point is that Shardplate consistently cracks when it takes an impact. Any energy that goes into damaging the Plate, which one must asume is a pretty large amount of energy to damage something as incredible as Shardplate, does not go into harming the human inside.

[tobar14]

It could be like burning Pewter.  For example, when Vin burns duralamin and steel, she needed to burn pewter as well to keep her body intact.  Maybe shardplate acts like pewter, strengthening everything about a person, allowing their bodies to deal with extreme accelerations.

[EvilNuff]

I thought about this when first reading WoK as well.  I just stopped worrying about it and said meh its a property of shardplate to absorb the blows with some form of inertial dampening.  

 

If you look at the parts of WoR where Kaladin is learning lashings, he is described as lashing himself up and down equally to float in mid-air.  Internally my brain said but what about actual gravity!  If you think about how the lashings are described its pretty clear that while under the influence of a lashing, regular gravity is just ignored/has no effect.  That isn't explicitly described in the text but it is clear from the circumstantial evidence.  I consider shardplate's protective nature to be similar in nature...there clearly is something there to protect it just isn't explicitly described IMO.

[natc]

Well, lashing redirects portions of the gravitational pull on your mass in different directions. 100% down is just natural gravity. So if you lash upwards the same amount you float like you would if you start uninvested and lash 50% up.

[Seloun]

If you look at the parts of WoR where Kaladin is learning lashings, he is described as lashing himself up and down equally to float in mid-air.  Internally my brain said but what about actual gravity!  If you think about how the lashings are described its pretty clear that while under the influence of a lashing, regular gravity is just ignored/has no effect.  That isn't explicitly described in the text but it is clear from the circumstantial evidence.  I consider shardplate's protective nature to be similar in nature...there clearly is something there to protect it just isn't explicitly described IMO.

 

Lashing effectively redirects the normal gravitational attraction, instead of adding a new acceleration:

 

Damnation, Szeth thought, Lashing himself upward with a quarter of a Basic Lashing. That didn’t pull him upward, it just made him much lighter. A quarter of his weight was now pulled upward instead of downward. In essence, he became half as heavy as he had been.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 718). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

He was the storm. He was destruction. At his will, men flipped into the air, fell, and died. He swept outward, touching a table and Lashing it upward with half a Basic Lashing. With half its mass pulled upward, half downward, it became weightless.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 719). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

1/4th of the original vector cancels part of the 3/4ths that remain (3/4 - 1/4 = 1/2), which leads to the half-weight. Likewise, flipping half of the vector negates the sum (1/2 - 1/2 = 0).

 

The OP's reference is:

 

Curious, he Lashed himself downward to slow further, then dismissed all of his Lashings except one up and one down. He eventually came to a stop hanging in midair.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 612). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

but this is still consistent with the above (Kaladin is redirecting all of the gravitational vector both up and down, i.e. 1 - 1 = 0); Kaladin appears to be just being less efficient about it than Szeth.

 

The main weirdness is that the Basic Lashings can convert a portion of the gravitational vector as well as increase the magnitude; these feel like distinct abilities in my mind (in the partial Basic Lashing case, the Lashing is 'stealing' from the gravitational vector, but there's nothing to 'steal' once it's all gone, so where is the additional force coming from?). It seems possible that the first Lashing is somewhat different from any additional Lashings that are applied.

 

One of the implications is that the effectiveness of Basic Lashings would be dependent on the magnitude of gravity (so Windrunners are actually more gimped on Roshar than they would be on Earth) assuming that the Stormlight required to create a single Basic Lashing remains roughly constant. In deep space Basic Lashings might be effectively useless.

[Edgedancer]

Lashing effectively redirects the normal gravitational attraction, instead of adding a new acceleration:

 

 

 

1/4th of the original vector cancels part of the 3/4ths that remain (3/4 - 1/4 = 1/2), which leads to the half-weight. Likewise, flipping half of the vector negates the sum (1/2 - 1/2 = 0).

 

The OP's reference is:

 

 

but this is still consistent with the above (Kaladin is redirecting all of the gravitational vector both up and down, i.e. 1 - 1 = 0); Kaladin appears to be just being less efficient about it than Szeth.

 

The main weirdness is that the Basic Lashings can convert a portion of the gravitational vector as well as increase the magnitude; these feel like distinct abilities in my mind (in the partial Basic Lashing case, the Lashing is 'stealing' from the gravitational vector, but there's nothing to 'steal' once it's all gone, so where is the additional force coming from?). It seems possible that the first Lashing is somewhat different from any additional Lashings that are applied.

 

One of the implications is that the effectiveness of Basic Lashings would be dependent on the magnitude of gravity (so Windrunners are actually more gimped on Roshar than they would be on Earth) assuming that the Stormlight required to create a single Basic Lashing remains roughly constant. In deep space Basic Lashings might be effectively useless.

The Basic Lashing works by altering the spiritual gravitational bond to the planet, twisting the energy of the planet itself. Multiple Basis Lashing probably just strenghten this spiritual bond, pumping the Investure provided by Stormlight into it to create a stronger gravitational pull. So when lashing oneself into two direction the process is more like doubling gravity first and then effectively dividing that with two lashings carrying half the effective gravitational pull, just that one of those Lashings still has the strenght of normal gravity. Just calling them (full) Lashings is simply a whole lot less complicated than half-Lashings under double gravity.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Edgedancer