Senor Feesh Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Just a quick one; I'm curious as to how different amounts of Investiture effect the magic systems of the Cosmere. It seems that with enough Investiture one can bypass normal 'laws' of each system. So far the only observations of this I have are: Breath - enough Breath lets you bypass the 'requirement' (I use the term loosely, as it seems to work on a sliding scale) of needing a humanoid form and a 'focus' such as human hair to Awaken. At the Tenth Heightening also removes the requirement of touching an object to Awaken. Duralumin - allows an Allomancer to push on metals with an opposing force greater than their own weight without being pushed back in return. Also, a Lerasium-created Mistborn is considerably stronger than an nth generation Mistborn (as Investiture seems to be lost as the sDNA gets diluted). Similarly Hemalurgy can allow for power-scaling effects (such as piercing Copperclouds). Anyone think of other examples? Yet to come up with anything for Sel or Roshar (though there are half-shards... hmm, I'd like to know more about those...) Anyone able to think on other possible ramifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Duralumin - allows an Allomancer to push on metals with an opposing force greater than their own weight without being pushed back in return.I thought you still got pushed back super strongly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 When you're drawing on the mists, it lets you bypass the requirements of needing metals. Personally, I doubt that half-shards are Shardblade resistant due to their investiture. As far as we know, they're simple augmenters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) What about Feruchemical Compounding? That seems like the biggest way to cheat the system. You can get out more than you put in, the only limiting factor is your supply of metal. In this case, it isn't so much the amount of Investiture, as having enough Investiture from 2 different, opposing Shards. I think the more types of Investiture that are accessible, the greater the overall ability to cheat the system. Which is why I find Hoid collecting all those different Invested objects so interesting. Edited April 23, 2013 by Cheese Ninja 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Does Hoid have anything from the Elantrans? Or is the scepter the only thing he's taken from Sel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 The scepter is the only known thing, but it's Hoid, you can't trust him around stuff. I'm betting he pocketed a Seon and a Skaze while he was there during Elantris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I thought you still got pushed back super strongly?? Perhaps I should re-phrase it, but I'm pretty sure it still allows you to 'push above your weight', as it were, allowing you to move an object heavier than you (which would normally be impossible as normally you'd be the one to move). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Perhaps I should re-phrase it, but I'm pretty sure it still allows you to 'push above your weight', as it were, allowing you to move an object heavier than you (which would normally be impossible as normally you'd be the one to move). It works more like all the basic Allomantic Push/Pull is used at once, making your personal weight much less important. You can see a similar effect when Wax stores weight and Pushes. He weighs less, so he should have less power. However, his basic Allomantic strength doesn't change, so he actually has the ability to Push himself a bit farther than he normally would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted April 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 It works more like all the basic Allomantic Push/Pull is used at once, making your personal weight much less important. You can see a similar effect when Wax stores weight and Pushes. He weighs less, so he should have less power. However, his basic Allomantic strength doesn't change, so he actually has the ability to Push himself a bit farther than he normally would. Forgive me, I'm having trouble marrying up this with how extra Investiture affects things. Your post is as per Kelsier's explanation to Vin, which is if you push against an object weighing more than you do (or more firmly anchored) then the force of your push gets transferred to you (much like pushing with your arms against a wall - it doesn't give, so you do). Pushing against an object weighing the same as you will mean you're affected equally. From this you can infer that objects weighing less (or with less countering force) will be affected more by a push or pull, which tallies up with Wax weighing less and flying further. I'm not sure I see how this works with regards to Duralumin - I might be wrong here, but I'm sure I remember it coming up that Duralumin allowed more 'bang', and there are instances of Vin and Elend being able to push things they really shouldn't be able to push (I thought I also remembered Elend being able to push harder, but this doesn't necessarily translate into being able to shift more weight; it could just as easily mean more push being transferred back to him when pushing on a heavier object). I've not read the book for a few months however, and could easily be misremembering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnut Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think the thing is that when Vin and Elend uses a Duralumin enhanced push they also the enhanced push to push on things behind them to make themselves stationary. Don't forget the time when vin catapults herself away to save Breze by using Duralumin and Steel to propel herself a lot longer than if she would be able to with just Steel. My conclusion: Duralumin enhanced pushes do not allow you to push with more than your own / your anchors weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 My conclusion: Duralumin enhanced pushes do not allow you to push with more than your own / your anchors weight. II agree that this SHOULD be the case. I also think that Brandon intends for this to be the case but some of the Duralumin fueled pushes seem to violate this law. The time that Vin jumps off the Luthadel walls to save Breeze and trips up all the horses by pushing on their horse shoes. I suppose it wouldn't take much to just make them stumble but it still seems like a lot to push on at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Forgive me, I'm having trouble marrying up this with how extra Investiture affects things. Your post is as per Kelsier's explanation to Vin, which is if you push against an object weighing more than you do (or more firmly anchored) then the force of your push gets transferred to you (much like pushing with your arms against a wall - it doesn't give, so you do). Pushing against an object weighing the same as you will mean you're affected equally. From this you can infer that objects weighing less (or with less countering force) will be affected more by a push or pull, which tallies up with Wax weighing less and flying further. I'm not sure I see how this works with regards to Duralumin - I might be wrong here, but I'm sure I remember it coming up that Duralumin allowed more 'bang', and there are instances of Vin and Elend being able to push things they really shouldn't be able to push (I thought I also remembered Elend being able to push harder, but this doesn't necessarily translate into being able to shift more weight; it could just as easily mean more push being transferred back to him when pushing on a heavier object). I've not read the book for a few months however, and could easily be misremembering. I'm sorry for not being clear. Using the Vin/Kelsier pushing match, Vin's natural Allomantic strength made the match more even than their body weights should have allowed. I interpert that to mean that Allomantic strength allows one to exert more force in a Push. To use an example, two Coinshots weigh 150 lbs. They both push on a coin, and exert all that weight as force. If they are equal in strength, the coin should move the same for both. However, if one is Allomantically stronger, his coin should move faster/farther, because of the extra energy he is getting from his stronger Allomancy. To tie this to duralanium, what I believe it actually does is allow you to tap into all the strength you would have from all your Pushes from the steel you are currently burning. This would add extra force that is independent of weight, and allow a lot of Vin's shenanigans. I'm not sure how duralanium would work otherwise, because your base weight doesn't change, and Allomancy can't grant Feruchemical abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 lol, who's Phantine? Just saw the reddit question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninch Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Doesn't Vin semi destroy Kredik Shaw when she duralumin pushes the inquisitors in her fight with marsh and the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Doesn't Vin semi destroy Kredik Shaw when she duralumin pushes the inquisitors in her fight with marsh and the others? Not a good example, she's also drawing on the mists at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Not a good example, she's also drawing on the mists at the time. So, a good example for the topic in general, but not for duralumin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 So, a good example for the topic in general, but not for duralumin. True enough. However I think the author is trying to point out non-Shard influenced ways that massive Investiture can monkey with a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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