Hoid and Kel

[lordofsoup]

In the AMA Brandon just said that Hoid and Kel dont get along.  

 

For example, inviting Hoid and Kelsier to the same party could result in murdering. Having Sazed around with someone like Jasnah would lead to some great discussions of philosophy.

Hoid and Kelsier do not get along. At all.

 

 

Because Kel had Preservation for a time before Vin took it, I assume that he would have sensed Hoid, who he had met occasionally while he was alive.  However he knew him only as an informant.  So what did Kel learn about Hoid while holding Preservation?  Any thoughts?

[Observer]

Well, the shard probably would have recognized Hoid the same way it knew the name Adonalsium, so Sazed probably knows about him too.

 

Maybe Hoid's goals and past deeds as seen by the shard weren't the kind of thing Kelsier would approve of? Like, the way he doens't like nobles, kind of approaval.

[tjoryk]

Maybe Kelsier... being a very direct and active participant in the events surrounding him is by nature against Hoid... who seems to be a lot more... indirect in his involvement with the events surrounding him. Perhaps Kelsier saw a more direct solution to the cosmere's issues(assuming that Hoid is trying to solve cosmere issues at all). Kelsier might be angry because he perceives Hoid's actions as incompetent and dangerous. 

 

Or I could be totally wrong. Maybe Hoid is just a really, really bad guy. I feel like we know Kelsier enough to see the kind of people he likes. Maybe Hoid was a noble?

[Morsk he/him]

Maybe Kelsier... being a very direct and active participant in the events surrounding him is by nature against Hoid... who seems to be a lot more... indirect in his involvement with the events surrounding him.[/size]

I think it's "political" differences like this. Alloy of Law compared Miles to Kelsier, and I become a lot more critical of Kelsier with that. Kelsier is a religious terrorist. Hoid may think his methods are too destructive, and that more subtle methods of cultural change through storytelling are superior.

[Vortaan he/him]

It could simply be that Hoid was able to prevent a lot of the pain and suffering on Scadrial by telling what he knows, and doesn't. Hoid so far has done the least possible to help the various Shardworlds, and it doesn't seem like helping them survive their various troubles is his main goal. Kelsier, however... he at the end was selfless enough to sacrifice himself for his people. I don't see Hoid doing that so far.

[NewbSombrero he/him]

Well, we do know that Kelsier stuck around in the Cognitive realm post death and that Hoid travels through the Cognitive realm, so it could very well be that they have had some interactions off-screen since Kelsier's death that didn't go well.

[Leuthie]

My guess is that Hoid had the ability to keep Kelsier's woman (Mara?) from dying and refused. Or Hoid was pushing Vin toward her sacrifice and Kelsier knew of a different way. Either way, Hoid's knowledge and actions were known by Kelsier and went against what Kelsier thought would happen.

[Joe ST he/him]

My guess is that Hoid had the ability to keep Kelsier's woman (Mara?) from dying and refused.

There was a fanfiction about that, including Doctor Who and Sherlock Holmes ¬.¬

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Kelsier gets really mad when people rip him off.  He asked Hoid for info and Hoid just lied to him. 

 

Naturally, Kelsier wanted his money back, but there isn't even a snowball's chance in Hell that Hoid will ever give back one of his trophies.  The survivor's bag of coins is a level 90 item, so of course he's keeping it, and Kelsier just wants a refund, and it devolves into fisticuffs. 

 

 

Also the jerk pretended to be blind NOT COOL.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Observer]

Kelsier gets really mad when people rip him off.  He asked Hoid for info and Hoid just lied to him. 

 

Naturally, Kelsier wanted his money back, but there isn't even a snowball's chance in Hell that Hoid will ever give back one of his trophies.  The survivor's bag of coins is a level 90 item, so of course he's keeping it, and Kelsier just wants a refund, and it devolves into fisticuffs. 

 

 

Also the jerk pretended to be blind NOT COOL.

 

This is totally what happened. Single best piece of Cosmere info we have.

[Pechvarry]

Honestly, I just think Hoid and Kelsier are too similar:  Cocky showmen who thrive on getting the better of others.  

[Elwynn]

Or it could be...ya know, because Kelsier is a reckless psychopath in every literal sense that is bound to get involved in things and not care about doing the right thing to benefit the cosmere, like Hoid seems so absorbed in.

 

I think it's more of Hoid having a strong dislike of Kelsier, and him just returning the sentiment.

[Yados]

We really don't know much about who Hoid really is or what Kelsier has become in the 300 years since his death in Final Empire. 

 

But this hopefully means we'll find out both before everything is said and done.

[Leuthie]

We have WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy. There are three ways to get access to that magic system: genetics, Shardic influence (gift from God,as it were) and Hemalurgy; and only one of those would be available to Hoid.

; Terrismen were the genetic carriers of Feruchemy. Hoid was leading a group of them to safety. At the time, Kelsier was a postmortem Cognitive entity, possibly holding most of the Shard of Preservation.

Now imagine what Hoid would have had to do to figure out where to put what spikes to give himself Feruchemical abilities and you can understand why Kelsier would have murderous feelings toward Hoid.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

We have WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy. There are three ways to get access to that magic system: genetics, Shardic influence (gift from God,as it were) and Hemalurgy; and only one of those would be available to Hoid.

; Terrismen were the genetic carriers of Feruchemy. Hoid was leading a group of them to safety. At the time, Kelsier was a postmortem Cognitive entity, possibly holding most of the Shard of Preservation.

Now imagine what Hoid would have had to do to figure out where to put what spikes to give himself Feruchemical abilities and you can understand why Kelsier would have murderous feelings toward Hoid.

Thing is, Hoid's been doing his 'showing out of nowhere' schtick since LONG before Mistborn. Like, a thousand years at least.

And there have been some mentions that the Worldbringers (Terris Religion) and Worldsingers (Hoid's storytelling organization in Stormlight) are connected. It's entirely possible Hoid picked up Feruchemy legitimately - as far as we can tell, Ruin seemed to want to keep Hoid away from Vin, which implies he recognized something about Hoid. Perhaps Hoid was around when the Terris first gained Feruchemy - heck, for all we know he could have founded their religion.

In addition, there's a good chance you can use the 'spiritweb-rewrite' from Lerasium to do more than just splice in allomancy. Hoid was looking for the Well of Ascension in the Terris mountains, and we know that he wasn't interested in the Well's power itself. He took some Lerasium from it, which is really the only reason he could have for making the trip. How would Hoid know it was there unless he's already acquainted with Lerasium?

Edited April 30, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Observer]

Strange, the Letter states that Hoid respected Ati as a kind and generous man. While that make sit obvious how he knew Scadrial's shards, it makes you wander why Ruin wouldn't want to get in touch. What has he been up to lately?

[Senor Feesh]

Ati was a kind an generous man... then he became Ruin. I always figured the point of that part of the letter was to illustrate the effect a Shard has on the holder. So by the time of the Final Empire, I doubt if 'kind and generous' would apply to Ati still.

[Observer]

I just think that former personality would matter a little. If Hoid liked him, I'd assume Ati knew him and maybe was frineds with him too. So it makes me wonder why he doesn't seem to like Hoid much.

 

Maybe he tried to contact him earlier already. Meh.

[happyman he/him]

Ati was a kind an generous man... then he became Ruin. I always figured the point of that part of the letter was to illustrate the effect a Shard has on the holder. So by the time of the Final Empire, I doubt if 'kind and generous' would apply to Ati still.

 

This.

 

By the time of TFE, it's pretty clear that nothing was left.  It's important to note, though, from the annotations, that Brandon doesn't consider Ati evil, even at the end.  (He also thinks that the protagonists did the right thing stopping him.  Brandon doesn't go in much for the pure, undiluted evil so much as he does having people make bad decisions.)

[darkanimereal1]

Ruin seemed to want to keep Hoid away from Vin, which implies he recognized something about Hoid. 

 

OH MY GOODNESS. Why didn't I realize this!? I didn't realize that Ruin/Ati could have been influencing Vin via the earring to make her think talking to Hoid would be bad. Although, if I remember that section correctly, she more acts on her gut instincts on that one--it's not like she hears her brother's voice telling her to stay away. Still, if Ruin could persuade her to wear that awful earring, maybe he could send a strong urge/feeling saying "STAY AWAY." Thanks for pointing that out!

[Phantom Monstrosity]

OH MY GOODNESS. Why didn't I realize this!? I didn't realize that Ruin/Ati could have been influencing Vin via the earring to make her think talking to Hoid would be bad. Although, if I remember that section correctly, she more acts on her gut instincts on that one--it's not like she hears her brother's voice telling her to stay away. Still, if Ruin could persuade her to wear that awful earring, maybe he could send a strong urge/feeling saying "STAY AWAY." Thanks for pointing that out!

Well, he's been altering her feelins, which is why she felt that the mists were hateful and stuff.

[Comatose he/him]

Maybe Kelsier... being a very direct and active participant in the events surrounding him is by nature against Hoid... who seems to be a lot more... indirect in his involvement with the events surrounding him. Perhaps Kelsier saw a more direct solution to the cosmere's issues(assuming that Hoid is trying to solve cosmere issues at all). Kelsier might be angry because he perceives Hoid's actions as incompetent and dangerous. 

 

Or I could be totally wrong. Maybe Hoid is just a really, really bad guy. I feel like we know Kelsier enough to see the kind of people he likes. Maybe Hoid was a noble?

 

I feel like some sort of disagreement on how to proceed is the most likely.  I don't think Hoid is working as indirectly as we think.  He probably isn't as direct as Kelsier, but we still don't know a lot about what he's doing or why he's doing it (the Moon Sceptre anyone?)

 

The way I see it, we know Kelsier is a meddler who can't leave things alone (hence his involvement in Hero Of Ages), and Hoid is THE Meddler.  Perhaps they just agree on how and why that meddling should occur?  Maybe Hoid thinks Kelsier is "dead" and should leave well enough alone, or that he is meddling with forces he cannot possibly understand, whereas Kelsier, having been deceived by Hoid is mistrustful of his motives.  I mean, Hoid might say he's out for the good of everyone, but does Kelsier know that for certain, or does he have any reason to trust Hoid?

 

Another thought came to me during this discussion.  We've been assuming Hoid is alive, and yet, Kelsier can affect events despite being dead.  Maybe Hoid is 'dead'?  Now, Kelsier hasn't been able to manifest physically, like Hoid has repeatedly, and the way Brandon talks about it makes Hoid makes it seem like he was alive, so maybe this is just ludicrous, but it was a passing notion I thought I would share.

[lordofsoup]

I am pretty sure that Hoid is alive, I believe in the AMA someone asked how old he was, and Brandon responded that he is old, but he may or may not have been awake the whole time.

 

However, I do not think that death is by any means the end in the Cosmere.  Sazed says that he is unable to bring Vin and Elend back, but he has been holding the Shards for an instant in the lifetime of a Shard, and by no means understands the full scope of his new powers.  

[Aethling he/him]

Sometimes people just don't get along.  Two of the most respected men in US history absolutely hated each other.  Adams and Jefferson tried to minimize the other's influence for much of their latter lives.

 

We know that Hoid has used multiple magic systems from the different shards.  He also knew the original shardholders before they ascended.  The recent reddit had Sanderson saying that the powers you had largely depended on where you were born unless a shardholder made a conscious effort to infuse the power into another planet or region.  It isn't too much of a stretch to think that Hoid and the original holders had all the abilities before the shattering.  Isn't there also a statement by Sanderson where he stated the powers are part of the planet, but the shards give a focus of release?

[Morsk he/him]

Here's a new way they could not get along: Hoid stole investiture from Scadrial. Kelsier held the power between Leras' death and Vin's ascension. He could have become aware of it then, or noticed at a later time when Hoid was moving through Shadesmar.

Lerasium is the body of a god, both sacred, and a scarce natural resource. Running off with it is like coming into some country without a passport, violating a religious temple, and running off with the nation's oil reserves. Except it's not even countries; Hoid is an alien from another planet. We think he's a great guy, but any resident of Scadrial could be really pissed off about this. They are Preservation's people. Leras sacrificed to create them. The investiture belongs to them.

Kelsier could also be jealous. Egomaniac that he is, he'd easily transition from "That belongs to Scadrial!" to "I should have gotten that. I'd use it for Scadrial!" The jealousy could lead into a lot of hatred.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Morsk