Why does Wax need a gun?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

It's not like coinshots are forced to use, you know, coins.

[Khmauv he/him]

By way of disclaimer I will not comment on advantages of specialized guns nor will I include them in my analysis.

With that out of the way...the way I see it, the effectiveness of a coinshot over a gun wielder is largely dependent on the skill of the coinshot, but a skilled coinshot could potentially outperform a gun. There are some things that come into play that I am uncertain about.

First, the energy imparted to the target is a function of mass and velocity. The relationship is the product of mass and velocity squared (E = m*V^2). The velocity, being squared, plays a more prominent role than mass. In other words, higher velocity of a smaller mass can easily impart more energy on a target. A bullet will have all of its energy imparted when the bullet is fired. It's energy will only decrease with distance, and is determined by the caliber of bullet and the amount of powder that can be packed in behind it. A coinshot can continually add energy to the projectile making it more like a rocket than a bullet. Depending on the distance to the target and the possible rate of acceleration (specific to individual allomantic power) the final energy in the projectile could be devastating even with a small projectile. The only time I see a bullet carrying more energy than a coinshot projectile is at close quarters where there is no space for the projectile to accelerate.

There would be complications to this process too. A continuous push would mean that any small movements of the coinshot after launch would alter the trajectory of the projectile as his mass center would change. This would mean you would have to stay very still to launch something in a straight line. If you were ducking and diving, an instantaneous pulse may be the only feasible course of action. In that case a gun would serve a similar and possibly cheaper role. This effect could also offer some interesting options for a skilled mistborn who could launch a projectile, possibly in conjunction with atuim, to perform some impossible trajectory corrections to hit an obscured target.

Second, I would argue that a well designed coinshot gun (what ever form that might take) could have a faster possible rate of fire, it would run silent and there would be no flash to give away position. A coinshot sniper would be undetectable to all but a coinshot, lurcher, or mistborn, and even if the coinshot were just pushing bullets they could pack around more ammunition per unit of weight because they wouldn't be carrying the charges as well. These munitions to have special modifications similar to what was shown in Alloy of Law to help fight other mistings too.

Third, a coinshot could potential fire strategically placed projectiles without giving the warning of raising a gun in the direction of the target. with proper training a misting to learn to 'shoot from the hip(chest?)'

fourth, multiple instantaneous shots. Perhaps not accurate but has the possibility to get you out of a jam.

I guess at the end of all that I would say that a melding of both, a coinshot gun, would be the very most effective. though someone with more imagination than I may prove that wrong. I do think that a coinshot assassin would be a powerful force.

edit: I lied about the specialized guns bit didn't I?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Khmauv

[Galavantes]

I've always wondered a bit as to why they use coins at all, Marsh used those razor spike thingies in HoA, that always seemed far more effective to me.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I've always wondered a bit as to why they use coins at all, Marsh used those razor spike thingies in HoA, that always seemed far more effective to me.

Plausible deniability, I'd assume.

[Galavantes]

Plausible deniability, I'd assume.

True..."No officer...I carry razor spikes for umm, omg is that an inquisitor behind you!" *razor spike thingie to back of head*

[Aethling he/him]

There has been some debate over where a revolver or a semi-auto can fire the fastest, but I think that was settled when a revolver using shooter managed to outshoot a semi-auto every time.  That said, semi-autos (which aren't that much outside of the time frame for Alloy) are able to hold more rounds than a revolver.  My personal weapon holds 14 plus one in the chamber for a total of 15.  Compare that with a revolver made by the same company holding a max of 6, and the performance is going to be higher.

 

It is true that coinshots can use any metal object.  I always thought ball bearings would be pretty devastating.  Still, a pistol or rifle seems to have an advantage.  It seems that the hazekillers carry shields that are able to stop a coinshot's play.  Most handgun cartridges would simply blow through a wooden shield.  Yes, I know that .22 can be a handgun cartridge, but even they can penetrate some wooden or cinderblock objects.  A 9mm, 10mm, .40, .38, .44, .45, etc should penetrade a wooden or even thin metalic shield fairly easily just by themselves.  Factor in a steelpush on them as well, and they are more than deadly.

 

As to the point about mass producing handguns.  The pricing does come down just like any mass produced object.  You can buy handguns these days for less than $200 in many states.   Of course, quality is always more expensive.

 

Let's also not forget about rifles.  Some modern rifles can reach out and touch something from a mile or more away.  Vin had to get much closer than that to push on the horseshoes at the battle of Luthadel.  Even for a small caliber rifle like a .22, target shooting at one hundred yards is fairly common.  Rifles by their very nature are going to be far more accurate than a coinshot pushing a bag and praying that it might hit something.  Even a cheap .308 rifle can put a three shot group inside of a quarter with the shots hitting the target before they even know they are in danger.

 

Guns also do not have to be made from metal.  Glock designed one to be made from ceramics.  Of course, this is illegal in many countries due to its ability to go through metal detectors.

 

Also, lets not forget that  ANYONE can use a gun.  In a world full of allomancers, a firearm is the great equalizer.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Guns also do not have to be made from metal. Glock designed one to be made from ceramics. Of course, this is illegal in many countries due to its ability to go through metal detectors.

I'm afraid that the ceramic glock is an urban myth. But it's one started by Die Hard II, so at least they had good taste.

[Aethling he/him]

Hmm, could have sworn I remembered an advertisement for one many years ago.  Someone must have tried to develop one at one point because I ran across a prohibition of sorts on the ATF page a few weeks back.  Mea Culpa on that one.

[ShardofRighteousness]

Assuming that the laws of physics are pretty much the same in the Cosmere. I did some physics to see what the terminal velocity of a spherical object with a radius of 1 centimeter would be through air in standard conditions.  I assumed a force of 1500 Newtons which would be strong enough to accelerate a 100 kg man upward at half the acceleration due to gravity.  Using  (Wikipedia drag force equation).

 

The terminal velocity that I got was around 3000 meters/second.  This is over 3 times the muzzle velocity of most sniper riffles which seem to have a muzzle velocity of around 900 meters/second.  So Wax if he stood still enough and had a straight path could get a bullet to travel 3 times faster than a sniper shot.  That's pretty crazy.  

 

I don't feel like calculating how much time or distance it would take to reach that velocity as that gets a little more complicated due to drag force being a function of velocity.  But still it is possible for a coin-shot to get a bullet or other metal object moving at over 3 times the velocity of a bullet fired from a sniper riffle.  

 

Given that type of velocity there is no way that a hazekiller's wooden shield could stop something at 3000 m/s.  So it would seem that it is very difficult to push on an object consistently enough to achieve this type of velocity.  Otherwise nothing could stop coin-shots except other allomancers.  

 

Also there would not be very much recoil even if you got your projectile to terminal speeds.  The recoil would only be from conservation of momentum.  Momentum is equal to mass times velocity or p = mv.  Since the mass of a bullet or coin is very small compared to the mass of a human the person would not be pushed back very much.  Also you are presumably accelerating the coin from rest so it would be about as much recoil as you would feel if you threw a football.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I believe that pushing strength falls off with range - so you're not going to keep pushing on something for very long.

[Voidus]

I believe that pushing strength falls off with range - so you're not going to keep pushing on something for very long.

That's actually something I've been curious about, if we take Vin and Kelsier's first training exercise when they balance at the very peak of a Steelpush, they obviously still have enough force to counter gravity for themselves.

 

 

[Senor Feesh]

That's actually something I've been curious about, if we take Vin and Kelsier's first training exercise when they balance at the very peak of a Steelpush, they obviously still have enough force to counter gravity for themselves.

 

 

 

I we actually know the height achieved, we could probably infer a lot from this

[Khmauv he/him]

I we actually know the height achieved, we could probably infer a lot from this

Anyone recall a reference to the height of the walls around Luthadel?

 

As I recall Vin was hovering right near the top. Assuming earth gravity of 9.81 m/s^2 and assuming Vin to be roughly 45 Kg (she is quite small) 445 N at the distance of one Luthadel wall height unit. Not quite the 1500 N figured earlier but that would give us an idea of how the Force diminishes with distance.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Khmauv

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, here is an example of pulling, by Kelsier, who is weaker and heavier than Vin (with snips):

He ignored the soldiers for the moment, instead focusing on a solid line of blue pointing toward the keep’s lofty top. It likely had bronze or copper sheeting on the roof. Kelsier flared his iron, took a deep breath, and Pulled on the line.

With a sudden jerk, he was yanked into the air.

....

Kelsier shot toward the keep, mists curling around him. He easily cleared the protective wall surrounding the keep’s grounds, but his body dropped slightly toward the ground as he moved. It was his pesky weight again; it tugged him down. Even the swiftest of arrows angled slightly toward the ground as it flew.

....

 He approached the keep wall several dozen feet below the rooftop, still traveling at a terrible speed.

 

As in, he overshot the keep wall - which should be at least two human heights, I'd guess, aiming at the roof that was still several -let's say 3 - dozen feet above. So he started from approximately 4 dozen feet away at least, I'd say, probably more (about 14 meters).

 

Next we have this:

Then, extinguishing both metals, he let momentum carry him the last few feet up through the dark mists.

Let's say 1 meter, for about 60-kg person (trying to use lower bounds), that would give around ~600 joules (muzzle energy of a pistol, according to wiki), and that is far from the maximum level.

So, yes, a coinshot pushing a bullet in space could probably achieve energy levels of an antitank rifle, but the problem is acceleration and precision. You Push only from your "push center", wherever that is (chest?) , the bullet continues to fall down, and you need larger distances to achieve the same velocity. Having a longish tube might help, actually.

 

EDIT:

Also, a quote from Vin that might be exaggeration:

“But I’m also not accustomed to hanging in the air a hundred feet above the bloody street!”

Which makes Luthadel walls about 25-30 meters.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Kelsier's been burning steel and iron much longer than vin.  It's his specialty - I doubt he's weaker than her by any significant margin.

 

And remember that being heavier actually increases how strong your pushes and pulls are.

[PhilV he/him]

Anyone recall a reference to the height of the walls around Luthadel?

 

As I recall Vin was hovering right near the top. Assuming earth gravity of 9.81 m/s^2 and assuming Vin to be roughly 45 Kg (she is quite small) 445 N at the distance of one Luthadel wall height unit. Not quite the 1500 N figured earlier but that would give us an idea of how the Force diminishes with distance.

 

Inverse square law?

[kroen]

Kelsier's been burning steel and iron much longer than vin.  It's his specialty - I doubt he's weaker than her by any significant margin.

 

And remember that being heavier actually increases how strong your pushes and pulls are.

Not when you fly. Being lighter allows you to push yourself off the ground farther, as we've seen Wax due multiple times. I'd also imagine that being lighter would allow you to pull yourself into objects you wouldn't be able to if you were heavier.

[Khmauv he/him]

Kelsier's been burning steel and iron much longer than vin.  It's his specialty - I doubt he's weaker than her by any significant margin.

 

And remember that being heavier actually increases how strong your pushes and pulls are.

I believe there is a miss-understanding here. Being heavier doesn't make your pushes/pulls stronger but helps give you a stronger foundation to push from.

 

Imagine yourself between 2 large containers one half the weight of the other, you acting as the force in between push on both. Which will move first? I think this is the mechanism that Kelsier was trying to teach Vin. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I believe there is a miss-understanding here. Being heavier doesn't make your pushes/pulls stronger but helps give you a stronger foundation to push from.

 

Imagine yourself between 2 large containers one half the weight of the other, you acting as the force in between push on both. Which will move first? I think this is the mechanism that Kelsier was trying to teach Vin. 

 

No, higher weights actually make you legitimately stronger. 

 

That's consistent with how Wax describes (and uses) his powers, how Kelsier talks about pulling and pushing to Vin, how Gemmel talks about pulling and pushing to Kelsier, and with how Brandon has responded in interviews about it.

[kroen]

No, higher weights actually make you legitimately stronger. 

 

That's consistent with how Wax describes (and uses) his powers, how Kelsier talks about pulling and pushing to Vin, how Gemmel talks about pulling and pushing to Kelsier, and with how Brandon has responded in interviews about it.

But Wax usually makes himself lighter in order to fly better, not heavier.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

But Wax usually makes himself lighter in order to fly better, not heavier.

Since it's proportional, the strength of the pushes on yourself cancels out.  However, being lighter means that you can treat just about any object around you as a very good anchor, so you generally fly better. 

 

Force scales with mass, so if you have a perfect anchor your acceleration is unchanged by weight.  If you have an anchor that moves when you push on it, then the lower your weight the less acceleration you lose to the anchor moving.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Morsk he/him]

And remember that being heavier actually increases how strong your pushes and pulls are.

The books say that a lot, but I think it's POV'd and the characters are wrong. In MB-3 Ham actually comments on Vin packing an equally strong push into a smaller package by being so small, and it making her faster as a result. So he's in a position to understand the whole thing. It's ironic that a Thug comes up with better physics than an era of Mistborn, and without realizing that he's done it.

edit: Dur, I didn't see Page 3 when I replied to this. It's probably already said by now.

edit: Yeah it was, it's like the entire page...

Edited April 23, 2013 by Morsk

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The books say that a lot, but I think it's POV'd and the characters are wrong. In MB-3 Ham actually comments on Vin packing an equally strong push into a smaller package by being so small, and it making her faster as a result. So he's in a position to understand the whole thing. It's ironic that a Thug comes up with better physics than an era of Mistborn, and without realizing that he's done it.

You're thinking of mistborn 2, when Vin was using pewter.  She has a higher inherent allomantic strength - which is what Ham was noticing.

Ham shook his head. "No, I doubt it."

"Then how?" Elend asked.

"Allomancers draw strength from their metals," Ham said, sighing and putting his foot down. "Some can squeeze out more than others—but the real power comes from the metal itself, not the person's body."

Elend paused. "So?"

"So," Ham said, "an Allomancer doesn't have to be physically strong to be incredibly powerful. If Vin were a Feruchemist, it would be different—if you ever see Sazed increase his strength, his muscles will grow larger. But with Allomancy, all the strength comes directly from the metal.

"Now, most Thugs—myself included—figure that making their bodies strong will only add to their power. After all, a muscular man burning pewter will be that much stronger than a regular man of the same Allomantic power."

Ham rubbed his chin, eyeing the passage Vin had left through. "But. . .well, I'm beginning to think that there might be another way. Vin's a thin little thing, but when she burns pewter, she grows several times stronger than any normal warrior. She packs all that strength into a small body, and doesn't have to bother with the weight of massive muscles. She's like. . .an insect. Far stronger than her mass or her body would indicate. So, when she jumps, she can jump."

 

Wax can directly mess with his weight and see the results.  His observations about Pushing and mass (assuming he isn't a total idiot) should take precedence over Ham talking about a completely different metal.

[Khmauv he/him]

No, higher weights actually make you legitimately stronger. 

 

That's consistent with how Wax describes (and uses) his powers, how Kelsier talks about pulling and pushing to Vin, how Gemmel talks about pulling and pushing to Kelsier, and with how Brandon has responded in interviews about it.

I fail to see the consistency. Kelsier teaches her that if the object is bigger than you you will be pulled to it, and if you are bigger it will be pulled to you. This is a parallel to the real world.

 

when she burns pewter, she grows several times stronger than any normal warrior. She packs all that strength into a small body, and doesn't have to bother with the weight of massive muscles.

This directly counters what your argument.

 

She has a higher inherent allomantic strength - which is what Ham was noticing.

Yes it is allomantic strength we are discussing is it not?

Edited April 23, 2013 by Khmauv

[dj26792 he/him]

Being heavier does not make your pushes stronger, that is an in world misconception, being better anchored allows you to push harder.

On to the topic at hand, as people have already speculated, while purely pushing on metals is theoretically amazing you can't outperform a gun without leaving yourself open to being shot, which I feel most people would prefer to avoid. You can use a gun and add a bit of extra force with your powers when necessary, something that works quite well for Wax, even doing that you cant be as accurate or fire as rapidly using purely pushing as you can with a gun