Religions?

[Ammanas]

3 hours ago, Erunion said:

@Deliiiiiightful - Judea was the southern kingdom. After Solomon died, Jeroboam rebelled against Rehoboam (Solomon's son) and the northern tribes followed him. After that point, the Loyalists (Judea, some of Simeon and most of the Levites and Benjamites) became the kingdom of Judah or Judea. 

A great example of the church/state interaction under that rule would be the prophet Nathan's interaction with David w.r.t. the Bathsheba incident. Although it's interesting too, because generally there would be a High Priest, in charge of religious duties, a Prophet, in charge of delivering the word of God, and a King, in charge of leading the people. 

 @Ammanas - Gonna sort of disagree with you there; Deuteronomy lists some requirements for kings, which implies that it was intended for there to be a king. Check out Deuteronomy 17:14-20. (Del, out of curiosity, do the Hebrew scriptures use a similar chapter/verse division as we do? It makes finding references easier, but if you're using a Hebrew book and we're using the western references it may be hard to follow. This is, of course, in the Torah). 
While Samuel does decry the motives and behaviors of the Israelites here, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Israelites were never to have a King. 
Especially consider the later importance of the Messianic/Davidic line, and the promises made to King David. 

 

I and the ESV study bible I have interprets the passage in Deuteronomy as God knowing the Israel would eventually have a king despite it going against Gods wishes. There was a plan in place bc He knew it would happen and tried to offset the damage by placing restrictions like the king must be "among your brothers". This view seems to be popular among biblical scholars.

This might be another thing we might agree to disagree with though

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ammanas

[Jedal he/him]

Anyone here have to rapidly put on a fake persona due to hatred against religion? Like I'm Roman Catholic and there is some major hate for it at my school. It's like I'm the devil because I'm conservative.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

3 minutes ago, Jedal said:

Anyone here have to rapidly put on a fake persona due to hatred against religion? Like I'm Roman Catholic and there is some major hate for it at my school. It's like I'm the devil because I'm conservative.

I do find it ironic that some who put an emphasis on hearing all sides and respecting all viewpoints will stop listening the second someone espouses a viewpoint they personally dislike. 

[Delightful]

True that Saul was appointed king after the people asked for a king "to be like the other nations", but there are also rules in the bible for a Jewish king. There was supposed to be kingship, but not in the time and the way Saul was appointed. 

 

 

Re mass revelation: many people saw Jesus perform miracles. So by your theology is Jesus equal to G-d? Would Jesus performing miracles be a religious equivalent to revelation at Mt Sinai?

[Silverblade5 he/him]

8 hours ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

 

Re mass revelation: many people saw Jesus perform miracles. So by your theology is Jesus equal to G-d? Would Jesus performing miracles be a religious equivalent to revelation at Mt Sinai?

As a Christian, I would say yes, as I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, God on earth.  I'd also say yes because anything done by Jesus is an act of God through Jesus. Jesus is the tool being used, God is the person using the tool. 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

8 hours ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

Re mass revelation: many people saw Jesus perform miracles. So by your theology is Jesus equal to G-d?

According to Christian theology—which holds that Jesus fulfilled all Old Testament Messianic prophecies—Jesus is God Incarnate. So by that standard, he isn't just equal to God, he is God. 

[Left he/him]

17 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

According to Christian theology—which holds that Jesus fulfilled all Old Testament Messianic prophecies—Jesus is God Incarnate. So by that standard, he isn't just equal to God, he is God. 

If you believe in the trinity that is. Not all christians do, and not all of those who don't are LDS. 

We believe that Jesus is the messiah and the only begotten son of God. 

[+Slowswift he/him]

So I just read this article: You're Not Messing Up God's Plan for You

The takeaway I got from it was that God isn't going to send you down some random path (like say "no, go get certified as a mechanic" when you wanted an English degree), but that you should do what you want to -- but do it with God involved.

I'm curious to see what y'all think about it.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

27 minutes ago, Left said:

If you believe in the trinity that is. Not all christians do, and not all of those who don't are LDS. 

We believe that Jesus is the messiah and the only begotten son of God. 

And the God of the Old Testament. And the creator of the universe...And the judge, and so on and so forth. Really, the only thing he isn't is God the Father.

An interesting semantic fact is that Mormonism would be polytheistic because it practices worship of God the Father AND God the Son. (I do not include God the Holy Ghost since he is not worshipped, even if he is considered a third "God")

[The Honor Spren she/her]

1 hour ago, Orlion Determined said:

And the God of the Old Testament. And the creator of the universe...And the judge, and so on and so forth. Really, the only thing he isn't is God the Father.

An interesting semantic fact is that Mormonism would be polytheistic because it practices worship of God the Father AND God the Son. (I do not include God the Holy Ghost since he is not worshipped, even if he is considered a third "God")

I guess you're not technically wrong . . . ? 

To clarify the LDS perception of the Trinity, which we call the Godhead, this is copied and pasted directly from the doctrinal mastery handbook:

Quote

1. The Godhead

There are three separate personages in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. The Father and the Son have tangible, glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22–23). They are one in purpose and are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation.

• God the Father

God the Father is the Supreme Being whom we worship. He is the Father of our spirits (see Hebrews 12:9). He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He is also just, merciful, and kind. God loves each of His children perfectly, and all are alike unto Him (see 2 Nephi 26:33). His work and glory is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.

• Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of the Father in the spirit and is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. Under the Father’s direction, Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth. He is Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Messiah of the New Testament.

Jesus Christ does the will of the Father in all things. He lived a sinless life and atoned for the sins of all mankind (see 3 Nephi 11:10–11). His life is the perfect example of how we are to live (see 3 Nephi 12:48). He was the first of Heavenly Father’s children to be resurrected. In our day, as in ancient times, He stands at the head of His Church. He will come again in power and glory and will reign on the earth during the Millennium (see D&C 29:10–11). He will judge all mankind.

Because Jesus Christ is our Savior and our Mediator with the Father, all prayers, blessings, and priesthood ordinances should be done in His name (see 3 Nephi 18:15, 20–21).

• The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit and does not have a body of flesh and bone. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, and the Comforter.

The Holy Ghost bears witness of the Father and the Son, reveals the truth of all things, and sanctifies those who repent and are baptized. Through the power of the Holy Ghost, we can receive spiritual gifts, which are blessings or abilities given by the Lord for our own benefit and to help us serve and bless others.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by The Honor Spren

[Orlion Blight he/him]

46 minutes ago, The Honor Spren said:

I guess you're not technically wrong . . . ? 

Correct, from the LDS website http://jesuschrist.lds.org/testimonies-of-him/articles/the-living-christ-the-testimony-of-the-apostles-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?&lang=eng

Quote

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament,

That identifies him as a God, one worshipped even! He bears witness to the Father, and the Father is, of course, worshipped. 

That's two distinct gods that are worshipped. It's not even henotheistic because Mormons worship both God the Father and Jesus Christ instead of just worshipping God the Father solo.

Edit to add the following from the LDS website (link after the quote)

Quote

The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as Lord (in small capitals), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god

Edited February 27, 2017 by Orlion Determined

[Erunion he/him]

@Deliiiiiightful - Christian theology is interesting here, but yes.
Traditional Christian theology considers Jesus/Yeshua to be God (YHWH), or more accurately an aspect of God, God incarnate (Immanuel, God With Us, as in the book of Isaiah) one of three 'persons' in the Triune God. This is part of trinitarian Christian theology, and is accepted by most Christian churches, whether catholic, orthodox or protestant (for generally accepted statements of belief, look to the Nicene Creed or the Apostolic Creed). 


Interesting note: the distinctions made here are, among others, the main reasons that mainstream Christianity does not consider some Christian offshoots, like the Church of the Latter Day Saints, to be 'Christian', because they disagree with some core theological points w.r.t. the nature of God and the nature of salvation. 
Naturally, these churches disagree with this characterization, but there it is. 


For anyone who wants to understand Christianity, I strongly recommend "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. It's older, a bit out of date in one section, but it's Lewis. Brilliantly written, extremely thoughtful, and actually easy/enjoyable to read (again, this is Lewis, author of Narnia). 
It was originally a radio series he gave over the BBC during WWII to help people understand what Christianity really was. It was later transcribed and edited into a book. 

[Delightful]

15 hours ago, The Honor Spren said:

He was the first of Heavenly Father’s children to be resurrected. 

 

So......there will be others?

 

So. I don't understand the Trinity. Are they all aspects of one G-d? How do you worship Jesus as G-d but not G-d as G-d (re the polytheism argument). Or are they different...beings?

 

16 hours ago, Slowswift said:

So I just read this article: You're Not Messing Up God's Plan for You

The takeaway I got from it was that God isn't going to send you down some random path (like say "no, go get certified as a mechanic" when you wanted an English degree), but that you should do what you want to -- but do it with God involved.

I'm curious to see what y'all think about it.

Too lazy right now to read the article but. I think that when you feel a strong pull towards doing something, it's a sign that it's what G-D wants from you, and on the flip side, G-D made it something you enjoy and find meaningful so that you will do it. There are a million jobs and for each people who would never do it if they were paid a million dollars an hour, and there are people who would do it if they were paid five dollars an hour because they love it so much. Essentially, follow your heart but make sure you use your brain too. 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

@Deliiiiiightful Re: the Trinity: According to the theology I was raised with (mainline evangelical Christian--pretty common here in the States) the Trinity is God in three persons, as one hymn goes. God the Father (the God we see throughout the Old Testament, and who Jesus refers to as God) God the Son (Jesus, God in the flesh) and God the Holy Spirit (a helper who provides guidance and sometimes enables followers to do miracles, sent after Jesus ascended into Heaven). Christians believe they are all aspects of the same God, and worship all three. So they do worship God, but they worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well, believing they are all the same God. So in a Christian church, you'll hear prayers directed at God and at Jesus, perhaps asking him to send the Holy Spirit, sometimes within the same prayer. 

The way I heard it explained at times was like an egg: You have the shell, the yolk, and the white. They're all different things with different functions, but they are all a part of the same egg. One egg, in three parts, that make up one complete egg. 

[Pinnacle-Ferring he/him]

On 27/02/2017 at 0:59 AM, Ammanas said:

There was never supposed to be a king. But according to scripture God gave it to them even though it was a bad idea. From 1st Samuel ch 8 KJ translation:

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 ¶ But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

 

On 27/02/2017 at 2:26 AM, Erunion said:

 @Ammanas - Gonna sort of disagree with you there; Deuteronomy lists some requirements for kings, which implies that it was intended for there to be a king. Check out Deuteronomy 17:14-20. (Del, out of curiosity, do the Hebrew scriptures use a similar chapter/verse division as we do? It makes finding references easier, but if you're using a Hebrew book and we're using the western references it may be hard to follow. This is, of course, in the Torah). 
While Samuel does decry the motives and behaviors of the Israelites here, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Israelites were never to have a King. 
Especially consider the later importance of the Messianic/Davidic line, and the promises made to King David. 

According to the Talmud, there is supposed to be a king, but the way the people were requesting one was wrong.

[Jedal he/him]

4 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

@Deliiiiiightful Re: the Trinity: According to the theology I was raised with (mainline evangelical Christian--pretty common here in the States) the Trinity is God in three persons, as one hymn goes. God the Father (the God we see throughout the Old Testament, and who Jesus refers to as God) God the Son (Jesus, God in the flesh) and God the Holy Spirit (a helper who provides guidance and sometimes enables followers to do miracles, sent after Jesus ascended into Heaven). Christians believe they are all aspects of the same God, and worship all three. So they do worship God, but they worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well, believing they are all the same God. So in a Christian church, you'll hear prayers directed at God and at Jesus, perhaps asking him to send the Holy Spirit, sometimes within the same prayer. 

The way I heard it explained at times was like an egg: You have the shell, the yolk, and the white. They're all different things with different functions, but they are all a part of the same egg. One egg, in three parts, that make up one complete egg. 

This is a good explanation, but I have to throw my own hat in the ring. @Deliiiiiightful

This is how I personally interpret the Trinity:

In the beginning, there is one God, the Father. He creates the universe and all the creatures and things of the Earth. During the Old Testament, this is the God which is referred to. He empowers the prophets and guides the Israelites, promising them one day a Deliverer. This is the first we hear of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is an aspect of God put in flesh. Basically, He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man. Although Jesus is incredibly insightful into the workings of the Church and theological debates, He has no knowledge of His true origins until the Father claims Him as His one and only Son when Jesus is baptized. Jesus lives on earth and gives teachings until He is crucified at the age of 30. He is resurrected three days after, and gifts each of His twelve Apostles the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Up until this point, not much was said about the Holy Spirit. However, it was said to grant the apostles the ability to speak all languages of the world and the courage and wisdom to spread the Christian faith. During Confirmation, each and every child to be Confirmed has the Holy Spirit sealed within them, to give them strength and guide them.

 

God the Father acts as the supreme Creator and supernatural being, who dispenses punishment as He sees fit. Jesus is the more loving, understanding aspect of God after he returns to Heaven. Jesus is the one who forgives sins. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives strength to follow faith.

It's like a God with three faces. Each one represents a different aspect of the same divine being. One is Creator, one is Redeemer, and one is your Guide.

[Kaymyth she/her]

7 hours ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

Too lazy right now to read the article but. I think that when you feel a strong pull towards doing something, it's a sign that it's what G-D wants from you, and on the flip side, G-D made it something you enjoy and find meaningful so that you will do it. There are a million jobs and for each people who would never do it if they were paid a million dollars an hour, and there are people who would do it if they were paid five dollars an hour because they love it so much. Essentially, follow your heart but make sure you use your brain too. 

So my strong pull towards polytheistic Paganism was pre-approved!  Sweet. 

[Orlion Blight he/him]

9 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

So my strong pull towards polytheistic Paganism was pre-approved!  Sweet. 

More gods to pull you towards it

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

All hail BANJO!

It was prophecied that there would be a time when the mystics would uncover the Banjo Mythos, and reawaken him!

ALL HAIL THE ELDER PUPPET

 ALL HAIL.

[Delightful]

4 hours ago, Jedal said:

This is a good explanation, but I have to throw my own hat in the ring. @Deliiiiiightful

This is how I personally interpret the Trinity:

In the beginning, there is one God, the Father. He creates the universe and all the creatures and things of the Earth. During the Old Testament, this is the God which is referred to. He empowers the prophets and guides the Israelites, promising them one day a Deliverer. This is the first we hear of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is an aspect of God put in flesh. Basically, He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man. Although Jesus is incredibly insightful into the workings of the Church and theological debates, He has no knowledge of His true origins until the Father claims Him as His one and only Son when Jesus is baptized. Jesus lives on earth and gives teachings until He is crucified at the age of 30. He is resurrected three days after, and gifts each of His twelve Apostles the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Up until this point, not much was said about the Holy Spirit. However, it was said to grant the apostles the ability to speak all languages of the world and the courage and wisdom to spread the Christian faith. During Confirmation, each and every child to be Confirmed has the Holy Spirit sealed within them, to give them strength and guide them.

 

God the Father acts as the supreme Creator and supernatural being, who dispenses punishment as He sees fit. Jesus is the more loving, understanding aspect of God after he returns to Heaven. Jesus is the one who forgives sins. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives strength to follow faith.

It's like a God with three faces. Each one represents a different aspect of the same divine being. One is Creator, one is Redeemer, and one is your Guide.

This + Twis egg theory has got to be the best explanation of this that I've seen. Thanks guys!

2 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

So my strong pull towards polytheistic Paganism was pre-approved!  Sweet. 

Hehehe  

[Oversleep]

@Jedal, I'm fairly sure that your post - from Catholic perspective - contains some heresy

6 hours ago, Jedal said:

In the beginning, there is one God, the Father.

For example this. The Trinity always was.

6 hours ago, Jedal said:

Jesus is an aspect of God put in flesh. Basically, He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man. Although Jesus is incredibly insightful into the workings of the Church and theological debates, He has no knowledge of His true origins until the Father claims Him as His one and only Son when Jesus is baptized.

But mostly these. Jesus is not an aspect of God. He is not a part of God. He is God.

And also that part about Jesus learning about his true nature. First off, He has spoken of His nature when He was lost and then found in the temple (childhood). But anyway, He always knew He is God.

And that part about "He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man" is very close to arianism.

[Jedal he/him]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

@Jedal, I'm fairly sure that your post - from Catholic perspective - contains some heresy

For example this. The Trinity always was.

But mostly these. Jesus is not an aspect of God. He is not a part of God. He is God.

And also that part about Jesus learning about his true nature. First off, He has spoken of His nature when He was lost and then found in the temple (childhood). But anyway, He always knew He is God.

And that part about "He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man" is very close to arianism.

Oh lol. I was just trying to simplify it. Both in my church and in my true father's teachings, the ethics of Christianity are more important than the actual supernatural story. I still believe all of it, but it seems that how I interpret it differs from others.

When I say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are an "aspect" of God, I mean it in the sense that They are all considered the same being. God, in the way I mean it is everything to ever exist and will exist. These "aspects" are different components of this being as perceived by humans. God the Father creates and administers punishment, Jesus walked the Earth and lived as one of us, and redeemed us through death, and the Holy Spirit guides us on our path to spiritual maturity. They are all the same Being, simply three different interpretations/interactions with His creations.

And in terms to the arianism thing, "allowed" was the wrong word. I meant more of "sent". Although it wasn't subservience it seemed more like the Father divided/copied Himself and "downloaded" it into Mary. The whole not knowing He wasn't God thing was my mistake. I must have forgotten that part.

 

Edit: And I'm Roman Catholic lol. My family somehow focused more on how Christianity empowers us to do good things. From what I've been taught, what you believe is negligible if you are a good person otherwise.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jedal

[ThirdGen]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

@Jedal, I'm fairly sure that your post - from Catholic perspective - contains some heresy

For example this. The Trinity always was.

But mostly these. Jesus is not an aspect of God. He is not a part of God. He is God.

And also that part about Jesus learning about his true nature. First off, He has spoken of His nature when He was lost and then found in the temple (childhood). But anyway, He always knew He is God.

And that part about "He is a divine part of God who is allowed to walk the Earth as any other man" is very close to arianism.

The insistence on "1=3, don't ask how, it just is" was one of the first easy steps in my journey from Catholic to atheist.

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, ThirdGen said:

"1=3, don't ask how, it just is"

... but why shouldn't you ask? To quote somebody I talked to "If one has to not think to believe then weak is his faith". Anyway, it's a fascinating philosophical problem, the Trinity.

[Erunion he/him]

@Oversleep & @Jedal - This protestant Christian approves your trinitarian conclusion. 
 @ThirdGen - That's really sad, actually. It deeply bothers me when people shut down questions; all it really does is leave them unanswered and shows your own ignorance. Much better to say 'good question' and then not be a lazy bum and do proper research. 
Faith unquestioned is no faith at all - if it's not strong enough to stand up to questions and facts, then you need to start 'working out' your faith. Which is what questioning it and examining it is for; making it stronger through trial (or exposing flaws, if they're there). 




.... On a slightly less reverent note, I just had this pop into my head 'dude! Look at your faith! Sick gains bro!'