Bronze senses Investiture

[Red Ferring he/him]

Bronze is often cited in-world as one of the least useful metals to burn, worse than copper. It senses the use of Allomancy and is able to detect which metals are being burned by a skilled Seeker. However, during my reread/listen to HoA, it goes over again that Vin can sense Ruin's presence with bronze, in a similar (if not identical) fashion as sensing the Mist Spirit (i.e. Preservation). Since we know Allomancy is of Preservation, yet bronze can sense Ruin as well, I'd like to propose than Bronze actually senses Investiture (or Shardic presence) in general. And as it applies to the Cosmere more fully, Hoid is an Allomancer from the bead of Lerasium he stole from the Well and he can now seek out Shards/Investiture throughout the Cosmere with enough practice. Thoughts, WoBs, Contradictions?

Edited June 4, 2015 by Red Ferring

[Argent he/him]

There are few WoBs that support this. The bottom line is that a Seeker (or a full Allomancer) with enough strength, skill, and experience can recognize not only other magic systems, but they intricacies as well (e.g. they could differentiate between Surges).

[Oudeis he/him]

Keep in mind, it's also been said that a skilled Seeker could detect feruchemy; despite this, with a thousand years of research and excellent motivation, slavishly devoted Seekers (the Inquisitors), many with double Bronze, were never able to do it.

 

In short, it prolly is possible to use Bronze to sense other forms of Investiture. It will absolutely not be easy, and I suggest it's prolly not something you can just "figure out" via trial and error.

 

On the other hand, it's possible you'd be able to find any Shardpool or any direct manifestation of a Shard with Bronze; perhaps something that powerful is just so loud that even without training, you can sense it. Or, contrariwise, maybe Ruin being Invested in Scadrial is what allows a Scadrian Investiture to sense him; other Shards might not be quite as easy.

[Guest]

For Feruchemy,it's likely hard to detect just because of the low levels of Investiture involved in normal Storing. I suspect that a Feruchemist going super-Hulk might show up as a weak signature pointing to the piece of metal being Tapped.

[Argent he/him]

I seem to recall a recent WoB about how the powers of Feruchemy are internal, which makes them more difficult to detect than, say, Allomancy - where, since the power source is actually external to the Allomancer, the disturbances in the Investiture are louder.

[Chaos he/him]

Not only that, but Vin could sense Ruin with bronze, essentially because Ruin was a giant ball of power, so this is entirely accurate in my opinion. Some will be harder than others to detect.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I've always assumed that in WoR, that is what surprised Hoid when he first meets Shallan as he can detect her use of investiture and surges

[Argent he/him]

I've always assumed that in WoR, that is what surprised Hoid when he first meets Shallan as he can detect her use of investiture and surges

 

I don't think she was actively Surgebinding when she met him. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I don't think she was actively Surgebinding when she met him. 

 

I kind of assume, though you are correct that it's not explicitly stated, that she must be holding some stormlight when she comes up. 

 

She had just done a "transforming" type experience on Balat to get him to leave the tent and go walk with his later gf, so I'm thinking she was hold stromlight, otherwise what is surprising to Hoid? 

 

Even if not Bronze, if he's using Breaths from Nalthis to do aura reading (which I believe will be similar to Bronze in it's ability to identify other types of investiture, though maybe not as nuanced as bronze can be), she would still have to be holding investiture for him to see/feel/id it. 

 

What's the other option? He sees Pattern? His glance, to me, its too fast other than to notice investiture emanating from her. 

[coppercloud]

I kind of assume, though you are correct that it's not explicitly stated, that she must be holding some stormlight when she comes up.

/

I think marsh says something about a good enough seeker could sense type and reserve of allomancy so if bronz can sense investure he could sense her sphere's.

Makes you wonder if Hoid could use Bronze to sense the difference in amount in a sphere ,spren type,surge binding ,voidbinding. Wonder if a Neil bond could be sensed .

[Icaf4ll3n he/him]

I think marsh says something about a good enough seeker could sense type and reserve of allomancy so if bronz can sense investure he could sense her sphere's.

Makes you wonder if Hoid could use Bronze to sense the difference in amount in a sphere ,spren type,surge binding ,voidbinding. Wonder if a Neil bond could be sensed .

 

I would assume based upon what i understand about it that this is indeed possible as you would be able to tell the difference in the 'wavelengths' for everything.

[Guest]

So if Bronze can sense all Investiture, and Nicrobursts exist, and there's going to be an Interstellar Mistborn series... anyone else wondering what the maximum range for a Nicrobursted Seeker is? Or maybe a Mechanized Seeker?

[natc]

So if Bronze can sense all Investiture, and Nicrobursts exist, and there's going to be an Interstellar Mistborn series... anyone else wondering what the maximum range for a Nicrobursted Seeker is? Or maybe a Mechanized Seeker?

How do you know it's range is what's boosted?

For all we know it just increases the immediate clarity. And maybe pierces copperclouds perhaps?

[Guest]

I don't know, that's why I'm WONDERING

[yurisses]

So if Bronze can sense all Investiture, and Nicrobursts exist, and there's going to be an Interstellar Mistborn series... anyone else wondering what the maximum range for a Nicrobursted Seeker is? Or maybe a Mechanized Seeker?

 

Woah, bronze radars, yo. Automatically identifies the type of magic being used too.

[pi_rho_man he/him]

Woah, bronze radars, yo. Automatically identifies the type of magic being used too.

I would also imagine that investiture would be used on the ship itself to cause... probably FTL shenanigans.  (I haven't thought about investiture uses on ships, but it seems useful!)

If that were the case, barring making an aluminum ship, that would detect ships as well. Though, if a ship is moving FTL, I'm not sure how useful that bronze would be.  For, assuming that bronze can only detect and transmit information at the speed of light, a FTL object would probably skip through any bronze "defenses."

Great. Now I'm wondering if the "wave length" of an investiture is impacted by the doppler effect. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by pi_rho_man

[Guest]

Woah, bronze radars, yo. Automatically identifies the type of magic being used too.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of locating Invested worlds. IF a Nicrobursted Seeker has their range enhanced, could one detect, say, Sel from in orbit around Scadrial?

[Argent he/him]

For, assuming that bronze can only detect and transmit information at the speed of light, a FTL object would probably skip through any bronze "defenses."

 

I don't know if we can make this assumption. I am pretty sure the Elantrians' ability to teleport violates the principle that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. If one example breaks the rule, there is no more rule.

[natc]

I don't know if we can make this assumption. I am pretty sure the Elantrians' ability to teleport violates the principle that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. If one example breaks the rule, there is no more rule.

You'd think spanreeds would be a better example than what could easily be a vector function slapped on top of their spacial coordinates.

[yurisses]

For, assuming that bronze can only detect and transmit information at the speed of light, a FTL object would probably skip through any bronze "defenses."

 

I don't know if we can make this assumption. I am pretty sure the Elantrians' ability to teleport violates the principle that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. If one example breaks the rule, there is no more rule.

 

Well, to be sure sure, "a FTL object" also "violates the principle that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light".

[Odium's_Shard]

Whilst we have no evidence that Selian teleportation and Stormlight's spanreeds do in fact transport information faster than the speed of light (since for the kind of distances used throughout the books the light transfer would be almost instant and there would be no way for them to record whether there was the required 'lag' in motion)... it would imply that if Investiture forms used from Scadrial's system can go FTL then there are ways to use the other magic systems to also go FTL if the systems are balanced (they may not be since it seems its easier to worldhop using Selian magic, seem to remember a WOB on that).

 

But I'm guessing its harder to go FTL than a ruby spanreed or one of the most basic Aons? Unless the reason its so easy using Selian magic is because teleportation is built into the magic system for use by any Invested party. The way to go FTL using Scadrial magic involved complex concentric time bubbles to create the warp drive effect, so it seems to a bit anti climactic if just about anyone on other planets can move ships FTL using simple mechanisms, it seems like it should be a technology that is hard to develop.

 

Beside, spoilers for Sixth of the Dusk:

In Sixth of the the Dusk there are lots of mentions of the Ones Above 'riding the stars themselves' and whilst this might be ordinary space travel, for them to ride the stars with any meaningful pace, to conduct trading and business transactions regularly with a civilisation on the other side of a solar system, we must presume they are an FTL civilisation. In my opinion, Sixth of the Dusk may take place far in the future from Mistborn books where Scadrial (because Scadrial is the only planet I know of that shares a system with the planet from Sixth of the Dusk) has gained FTL and is the civilisation described as 'the Ones Above'.

[Guest]

To send an object anywhere with an Aon isn't a "basic Aon", but rather an equation that has to specify direction, distance (including defining the measure of said distance), and provide power for the effect. As such, any teleportation beyond a few dozen kilometers becomes very exacting and complex

Worldhopping is harder to/from Sel, not easier.

[natc]

Pretty much trying to Aon yourself onto another planet would involve figuring out exactly where it is and where you want to land on it, work out the angle and distance, and draw it out. You have to factor in the fact that due to the distance being multiple lightyears where you see it to be isn't actually where it is, and that since both Sel and the target are both moving through space ridiculously quickly, by the time you finish drawing the numbers would be off, so you gotta calculate ahead and have perfect timing to not risk sending yourself into the vacuum of space.

And then you can't come back once you get there due to distance decay of AonDor strength, and even if you hack it to work without the large Elantrian Aon it might still not be strong enough. And you'll need to math it out again.

There is nothing basic about any Aon when used for complex applications, let alone using Tia to skip outer space.