Please replace the "half-breed" rank

[Vaidd]

There's something that's been bothering me since I started coming to this site a few months ago, and I've decided I have to say something about it.  Please note that my intention is not to make any accusations toward anyone, nor do I want to inflame any angry debate.  I would encourage anyone who contributes to this conversation to do so in a reasonable and respectful manner.  If the mods feel that this topic will lead to--or has led to--a massive flame war, I'll completely understand if they wish to lock or even delete this thread.  (I just ask that they don't dock me 15 reputation points from my current 33, for reasons that I will explain in the next paragraph.)

 

When a person has between 16 and 19 reputation on these forums, he or she is given the rank of "Half-breed."  I'm fully aware of the connection between this term and Sanderson's work.  However, we Sharders live in the real world, and in our world, "half-breed" is often used as a racial slur to describe a bi-racial person.  If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself.  I'll wait here.

 

Everyone on this site makes great efforts to be friendly and agreeable, so I know that we all want to be as welcoming as possible to everyone who comes here.  I'd hate it if a new user came here, made a few posts, earned a few rep points, and then was made to feel unwelcome because the label "half-breed" was suddenly applied to him or her.  This would be especially true if he or she had only read, say, The Reckoners and didn't understand the context from which the rank was derived.

 

I'm certain that the admins who came up with the ranks had no intent of being offensive or insulting when they put "half-breed" in the list.  That doesn't mean it can't legitimately offend or insult someone. Unintentional insults can inflict just as much pain as malicious ones, and it's important that we always do our best never to give offense, whether accidentally or on purpose.

 

Of course, if we're going to do away with a rank, we need to think about what to replace it with.  I nominate "Slontze" because we don't seem to have any Reckoners ranks on the current list, but really, just about any Sanderson-related term we pick would be better than what we've got.

 

I'm certain that an admin could, in far less time than it took me to compose this post, change whatever table governs the ranks and replace "half-breed" with something more appropriate, and this brings me to my final argument: cost versus benefit.  With only a few seconds of effort by one admin, we'd all gain the benefit of being even more welcoming to potential new members of our community.  I'd say that's worth the cost, wouldn't you?

[Chaos]

Oh, you're so silly. We would never take away rep for something like this--heck, the only time rep is ever changed if there's rep abuse, or some other disciplinary action, I guess. So don't worry about it; it is never something you need to fear.

I guess I can sort of understand why you'd feel this way. However, it is my opinion that half-breeds are awesome. Feel free to take that statement entirely out of context. I mean, Kelsier and Vin? Yeah, I'll be a half-breed, please.

I suppose it is something to think about, maybe, but that is my opinion now.

[KamorianKandra]

It is not my intention to start an argument, but I do think that Vaidd has a valid point.

I think that if anyone is offended by this, it should be changed.

Even if no one has taken it the wrong way yet, it could happen.

Again though, I don't mean to start an argument.

[Arook]

I understand your point but I disagree with one thing. I work very hard not to live in the real world. That place sucks.

[Voidus]

I'm of the opinion that most people visiting a fantasy authours fan site would be able to make the connection but on the off chance someone does just find it offensive it can't hurt to change it.

[Young Bard]

I would be fine with it going either way.

 

I believe there was a similar argument with Rick Riordan's use of the word "Half-blood" in the Percy Jackson series. So far as I know, no-one ever actually took offence at the term, but everyone was worried everyone else would.

 

Personally, I don't think it matters overly much. True, to the average person on the street, if the term "Half-Breed" were mentioned to them, particularly out of context, it could be taken to be offensive, but the average Sanderfan who visits the 17th Shard would no better.

 

And for reference, there are a number of younger people here who have only read 'Alcatraz'. And, so far as I am aware, none of them have had any qualms with the term.

 

Ultimately, it's up to the administrators. I don't think it's as big a deal as you seem to be making it out to be, but if they think that it should be changed for peace of mind, then that's fine too.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, I in no way think that the term half-breed is appropriate to be used in reference to African-Americans, nor do I think that racial discrimination is something to be treated lightly. I just find it unlikely that someone would mistake an innocent term from a reputable forum to be meaning anything derogatory.

 

Also, maybe you should start a poll, and see what everyone else thinks.

Edited June 3, 2015 by TheYoungBard

[yurisses]

Perhaps I give younger users too much credit, but I would think that by 16 rep a user would have understood that the ranks are in-universe references. Racism is a natural part of medieval and high fantasy that is mostly taken for granted; Darkeyes, for example, has at least as much racial and discriminatory weight as Half-breed. I trust a confused user reaching "Half-breed" to look at other people's rank and intuit that they are fantasy role-play winks.

Yeah, there's a risk. But it's infinitesimal, and half-breeds are awesome. Cost versus benefit.

edit: So apparently, I'm Half-breed now. How fortuitous.

Edited June 3, 2015 by yurisses

[Tyson]

I'm mixed race. I've been called all sorts and i've almost never felt offended by any term used to describe my ethnicity. Call me half-cast, bi-racial, mixed race, coloured etc. in no way do I find it racist. Thats what I am. No one else should be made to watch their tongue everytime my ethnicity is brought up in a conversation.

 

Person: "So what are you? Like I mean...erm...what nationality. No I mean what are your parents? Like are you mixed or something?"

 

Me: "For god sake, just ask me if i'm half-cast."

 

I don't want anyone to ever feel awkward discussing the topic, just because they struggle to find the correct term. I term my parents as "White" and "Black" even though no human has white or black skin, so why would I be offended if someone termed me as "half-something". I am half "white" and half "black".

 

I've never understood how some people think you need to be careful with words. A word is just a sound, shaped in a way to give a meaning. Sounds and meanings can't hurt people, its the way they are delivered that stings.  

 

Here's a quote that I love from Peter Dinklage (plays Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones) who is a dwarf and is asked about the correct terms of his condition:

 

“I hate all that ‘little person’ rust. Call me a midget, but just be real. I am all for correct terms, but please don’t tiptoe around feelings. Don’t be too careful, because that shuts you off from people"

Edited June 3, 2015 by Tyson

[Argent]

I believe it is better to err on the side of caution here. None of the people I hang out with out be offended if I used the word "gay" in a derogatory sense (e.g. "That's gay!"), but I don't do it regardless. This situation is similar in quality, though far less severe, I think. 

[Orlion Blight]

In a genre that is replete with such terms that are gleefully displayed (i.e. Half-Blooded Prince), I feel this is a non issue. There is no actual societal or cultural context where "half-breed" is terribly derogatory. I imagine that's why Sanderson probably chose it to begin with instead of, say, the N-word. It would take a cultural movement of bigots several years using the term "half-breed" before it actually gained any status approaching that. 

 

As a result, it is not really a problem. Just because some hypothetical person could hypothetically get offended does not mean we should do anything besides take hypothetical action.

[PeterAhlstrom]

There is no actual societal or cultural context where "half-breed" is terribly derogatory.

I am personally not aware of any such actual societal or cultural context, and have never heard it used that way myself, but are you so certain you can make this claim? Vaidd says above that it is often used exactly that way.

[Vaidd]

Oh, you're so silly. We would never take away rep for something like this--heck, the only time rep is ever changed if there's rep abuse, or some other disciplinary action, I guess. So don't worry about it; it is never something you need to fear.

I guess I can sort of understand why you'd feel this way. However, it is my opinion that half-breeds are awesome. Feel free to take that statement entirely out of context. I mean, Kelsier and Vin? Yeah, I'll be a half-breed, please.

I suppose it is something to think about, maybe, but that is my opinion now.

 

Oh, I know you wouldn't dock rep points.  It was more of a lame joke to let me segue from my disclaimer to my actual point. 

 

Okay, so Vin and Kelsier are awesome.  But would you walk up to Vin and say to her face, "Yeah, I guess you're doing pretty well for a half-breed?"  If you did, there'd be two half-people standing where you used to be.  Even in a fictional world, a label can hurt no matter how widely it is used or even accepted.  In the real world, race relations are much more complicated.  (And besides, if all "half-breeds" are really that awesome in the Cosmere, this rank would be much higher up the list.)

 

 

I understand your point but I disagree with one thing. I work very hard not to live in the real world. That place sucks.

 

If only it were this easy to avoid the real world. 

 

I'm of the opinion that most people visiting a fantasy authours fan site would be able to make the connection but on the off chance someone does just find it offensive it can't hurt to change it.

 

This is basically my point, except expressed in a single sentence instead of an essay. 

 

I'm mixed race. I've been called all sorts and i've almost never felt offended by any term used to describe my ethnicity. Call me half-cast, bi-racial, mixed race, coloured etc. in no way do I find it racist. Thats what I am. No one else should be made to watch their tongue everytime my ethnicity is brought up in a conversation.

 

Thanks for weighing in--it's good to have an "insider's" view on this.  I agree that it should not be awkward to discuss race when it is relevant, although if I found myself in such a discussion, such as this thread, I would try to avoid terms that historically have been used to disparage or insult others.  That way, if my my listener(s) would be insulted by such terms, I would avoid giving offense (at least in that particular way--I'm perfectly capable of putting my foot in my mouth in other ways.)

 

I have one question for you, and this is to help me understand your point of view, and not to try to bait or entrap you.  If someone posted and said "I'm bi-racial and I get really mad when people use this term," what would your reaction be?  Would you accept it as a valid response, or would you say that person is too sensitive?  Or perhaps some other response that didn't occur to me?  And yeah, that was technically three questions, but they're all asking the same thing.

[Curious Anamaximder]

I am not taking a side in this argument, but we should not replace Half-breed with slontze. If you want Reckoners, try Minor Epic.

[Vaidd]

In a genre that is replete with such terms that are gleefully displayed (i.e. Half-Blooded Prince), I feel this is a non issue. There is no actual societal or cultural context where "half-breed" is terribly derogatory.

 

If you're referring to the Harry Potter series, "Half-Blood" was used pejoratively.  Rowling made a point of showing us how hurtful it was when the "old" wizarding families were dismissive of a "half-blood" or "mud-blood's" talents or accomplishments.

 

Going back to the real world, I'm afraid the term is much, much more common than you realize.  In the U.S., it was historically applied to people of both Native American and White descent, but its use has expanded to include people of both Black and White descent.  In both cases, it was a way for racists to categorize someone as "not White" or specifically as "less than White."  If you still don't believe me, try a few Google searches with "safe search" turned off.  Be prepared, though: you will see some truly vile, racist screeds if you do this, but maybe that will help you understand why I felt I had to speak up.

[Delightful]

I've never understood how some people think you need to be careful with words. A word is just a sound, shaped in a way to give a meaning. Sounds and meanings can't hurt people, its the way they are delivered that stings.

I beg to differ. Meanings can definitely hurt people. The same word may have a different meaning dependent on context including who is saying it and what relationship you have with them, but words can hurt. Words can hurt more than physical pain. Verbal abuse can be painful enough to drive people to suicide, words can be used to incite hatred or reinforce negative stereotypes that do the same. "It's just words" is not a valid argument, not ever.

Historically half-caste was used to describe part-aboriginal Australians as they were then kidnapped from their families so they would grow up """"nice and white and civilised""""". I don't know if this term is still considered offensive by their descendants.

In context of 17th Shard, I see both sides and don't mind either way until proven otherwise.

[Orlion Blight]

There is no actual societal or cultural context where "half-breed" is terribly derogatory. 

 

 

I am personally not aware of any such actual societal or cultural context, and have never heard it used that way myself, but are you so certain you can make this claim? Vaidd says above that it is often used exactly that way.

A valid critique. This discussion (my reply being a top offender) is not really being conducted in a rigorous, scholarly matter to establish such absolute claims. I stand mildly rebuked and shall clarify that these are based on my personal awareness.

 

If you're referring to the Harry Potter series, "Half-Blood" was used pejoratively.  Rowling made a point of showing us how hurtful it was when the "old" wizarding families were dismissive of a "half-blood" or "mud-blood's" talents or accomplishments.

 

Going back to the real world, I'm afraid the term is much, much more common than you realize.  In the U.S., it was historically applied to people of both Native American and White descent, but its use has expanded to include people of both Black and White descent.  In both cases, it was a way for racists to categorize someone as "not White" or specifically as "less than White."  If you still don't believe me, try a few Google searches with "safe search" turned off.  Be prepared, though: you will see some truly vile, racist screeds if you do this, but maybe that will help you understand why I felt I had to speak up.

 

You are correct, the terms Skaa, dark-eyes, mud-blood, etc. are used with an authorial intent to look at discrimination and prejudice towards less-privileged classes. My point, however, is that these terms are so far removed from racial slurs that exist in the real world that they do not create the same feeling of discomfort... to the point that fans will even adopt the terms to describe themselves/their own.

So the question at hand is how separated from real life prejudices "half-breed" is... which we courteously disagree on (I hope at least, I'm not terribly confrontational in this discussion, and if I appear that way, feel free to call me out on it).

[Arook]

 

 

If only it were this easy to avoid the real world.  

 

I did say I work hard at it. 

 

But I am not a fan of censorship for the sake of censorship.

 

 

 

 

I have one question for you, and this is to help me understand your point of view, and not to try to bait or entrap you.  If someone posted and said "I'm bi-racial and I get really mad when people use this term," what would your reaction be?  Would you accept it as a valid response, or would you say that person is too sensitive?  Or perhaps some other response that didn't occur to me?  And yeah, that was technically three questions, but they're all asking the same thing.

 

 

See that is an entirely different conversation. I would hope that explaining what the rank meant would simply be a reasonable response, if the person truly felt hurt about it I would happily give them the needed 5 rank points to move past it. A person bent on being angry will find reason to be angry.

 

As for your concern about the person who has only read a few book and is fairly new to the forum, I would be fine with moving it up a 100 ranks. Then a person no longer has that excuse and that would give them lots of time to read. I don't feel we need to.

[Smye]

Despite the significance, and awesomeness, of the in-world meaning of 'half-breed' I have to agree wholeheartedly with Vaidd on this one. Despite the ability to 'see beyond' the real world connotations among those who haven't suffered as a result of constant racism, classism, sexism, etc., for those who have lived with the hatred and discrimination of others, the very phrase, even in this context, may prove alienating, etc. For example, if (in a 100% hypothetical), someone were to have a creature in their series known as a n***er, we'd still never use that as a ranking. Never would we say 'get over it, it's a different context." We understand that, as the word so many innocent, beaten down people heard as their last sound in the noose, that this word is hateful and we take great efforts to avoid even the appearance of condoning its use. The same logic, if less obvious, applies here.

 

Also, Peter makes an excellent point, having never experienced something ourselves, who are we to claim it doesn't exist or doesn't happen. It's like a certain popular news commentator who recently claimed that privilege doesn't exist, despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary.

 

And Arook, I think it's less about apeasing those who are easily offended and more about ensuring that the 17th shard is a safe place for every individual to the extent that it is reasonably within our power. Sure, there will be things here that offend folks that we can't predict - but if it's brought to our attention that something so simple as changing a rank name (which takes, what, 5 minutes max if you're on dial up and an admin?) can prevent potential microagressions and implicit unintentional racism, then sparks, what argument can be made against the change?

 

Those of us who carry buckets of privilege with us whereever we go (and I'm not just talking race here, or class, but any siginificant amount of privilege in our society) often feel our hackles go up when someone points out a group of people potentially being UNINTENTIONALLY maligned or marginalized by our actions. It's easy to fall back on "I'm not a racist, of course not, therefore they're just overreacting" and/or "they're racist towards me" and/or "you don't know what you're talking about." And of course that's our reaction, it's totally reasonable. Prejudice is filthy, evil stuff and we all know it. So of course we want to distance ourselves from it as soon as possible and take on a 'colorblind' view of the world.

 

But when we do so, we ignore the injustice that still exists in our world, especially if we've never been part of it. And by doing so, we become part of it as complicit bystanders. Should we not, rather, accept the fact that we don't all share the same backgrounds, experiences, trauma, joys, etc. and take simple steps to avoid harming our fellow sharders, no matter how ridiculous it may feel to us.

 

Thanks all for reading my thesis - I just finished a post-graduate degree on this very topic and so am still a little fired up - my apologies for the length.

 

Lastly, I want to thank everyone who's actively thinking about this. Regardless of where you stand, if we're going to improve our messed up little world, it's got to start with these kinds of conversations. My hat is off to you all.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Smye

[Rubix]

Thank you all for the input, and the level headed discussion. We're definitely going to take this under advisement, but please know that if we do change the name of the reputation level, it will not be changed to Slontze. Slontze is used in a defamatory manner in the books, and we do try to put things like that into the negative reputation levels. If anyone has any questions, or suggestions for what we could change the title to, feel free to drop me a PM. Coming up with a replacement title tends to take me a little while, so options would help me greatly.

 

Thanks again!

 

Rubix

 

Edit: The reputation level has been changed.