Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I don't buy that argument. I'm pretty sure Roshar had more gender equality back in the Heraldic Epochs, the woman Knight we saw didn't seem at all subservient to the male Knight. And, with Jasnah's distance lightening Soulcasting and the fact that Kaladin is yet to perform a basic lashing, I'd bet on her winning at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 In the Heraldic Epochs I'd imagine they couldn't really afford gender bias, I just mean that as Jasnah has been raised in Alethkar and they do apply gender bias that she would be far less experienced in a combat situation. She might be more adept with her Surgebinding but that doesn't mean she'd be a better leader, especially in a military environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 That's fair, my apologies. I was thinking more in a historical sense. I do hope that any reformation of the Radiants will manage to buck more modern gender roles though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I don't buy that argument. I'm pretty sure Roshar had more gender equality back in the Heraldic Epochs, the woman Knight we saw didn't seem at all subservient to the male Knight. And, with Jasnah's distance lightening Soulcasting and the fact that Kaladin is yet to perform a basic lashing, I'd bet on her winning at the moment. If you're talking about winning against Kaladin, we have word from Brandon that various forms of investiture are immune to one another. Jasnah couldn't turn Kaladin to a pillar of salt any more than Kaladin could Lash her to an object and hurl her away. Assuming Jasnah had charged stones and Kaladin was holding Stormlight at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'd like to see a quote on something this specific. I've seen plenty on the fact that investitures tend to interfere with one another, like no lashing with Plate, or no pushing and pulling on spikes, for the most part, but nothing to suggest magic users can't use their magic on each other. How many times does Breeze Soothe Vin or Kelsier? If this is true, it'll definitely be disappointing for me, I think it'll take away from some of the awesomeness of the Kaladin-Szeth confrontation we have brewing. Also, as a side note, Jasnah doesn't have to even Soulcast Kaladin directly. Wouldn't turning the air around him to flame or crystal be equally devastating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'd like to see a quote on something this specific. I've seen plenty on the fact that investitures tend to interfere with one another, like no lashing with Plate, or no pushing and pulling on spikes, for the most part, but nothing to suggest magic users can't use their magic on each other. How many times does Breeze Soothe Vin or Kelsier? If this is true, it'll definitely be disappointing for me, I think it'll take away from some of the awesomeness of the Kaladin-Szeth confrontation we have brewing. Also, as a side note, Jasnah doesn't have to even Soulcast Kaladin directly. Wouldn't turning the air around him to flame or crystal be equally devastating? Well, Kaladin/Szeth will likely be epic no matter what. I don't think Brandon meant that powers were nullified totally, just that you couldn't use them directly against other people holding significant investiture. Jasnah, for example, couldn't deal with Kaladin the same way she did the muggers, assuming he was holding Stormlight. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be a fight, or that it'd be one-sided. Jasnah could still turn the ground under him into water, for example. Or maybe even the air into a liquid or solid around his head.... I think between various holders of investiture on Roshar, it's going to come down to speed and knowing your opponent has abilities as well. That may be why Shardplate and Shardblades were created to begin with, actually.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 No offense, but I'd still like to see a quote where Brandon specifically says that you cannot Surgebind someone holding Stormlight, or something to that effect. Every single person in the cosmere is invested to a certain degree, so I'd like to see where Brandon has firmly drawn the line about how much investiture someone needs for this effect you're describing to manifest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 No offense, but I'd still like to see a quote where Brandon specifically says that you cannot Surgebind someone holding Stormlight, or something to that effect. Every single person in the cosmere is invested to a certain degree, so I'd like to see where Brandon has firmly drawn the line about how much investiture someone needs for this effect you're describing to manifest. I'm terrible with searching down interviews, but I know for a fact that there's a quote that Allomancy could not affect Shardplate/Shardblades because they hold too much investiture. And Szeth cannoth directly act on Shardplate or use his Surgebindings effectively while wearing Shardplate. I'm not saying it's impossible, since we also have interviews where Brandon says Hemalurgy can steal Shardblades. But in the normal course of things, it seems fair to say different forms of investiture have a fair amount of insulation from one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Well you'd need at least as much Stormlight as Plate holds to be sure of not being affected, and that's assuming that Plate doesn't actively use its Stormlight to block Surges in some way, after all the KR of old had no trouble affecting theirs. And it would really just be a matter of using more Stormlight than they held, if Kaladin was invested with stormlight from one clearchip and Jasnah tried to Soulcast him using all the Stormlight of a gemheart then I think that'd certainly work. I'm terrible with searching down interviews, but I know for a fact that there's a quote that Allomancy could not affect Shardplate/Shardblades because they hold too much investiture. Allomancy is also a fair bit weaker than the magic from the other Shardworlds we know of I think. Edited March 12, 2013 by Voidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 I know both of these things, but they're both different from what we're talking about here. These are people having trouble using magic on or through an invested object. Nothing about another person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Allomancy is also a fair bit weaker than the magic from the other Shardworlds we know of I think. Well, on average, yes. Full Mistborn Feruchemists could compete with pretty much anyone I think. Hell, Brandon said Scadrial will naturally develop faster than light travel based on their abilities. I wouldn't take his statement as a judgement on absolute relative investiture. Edit: As far as the KR affecting their Plate, where do we see anything like that? The only time we see Surgebinding in combination with Shardplate is when Szeth assasinates the king at the very beginning of the novel... Kaladin didn't even try to engage the Parshendi Shardbearer with Surgebinding, so we have no idea whether that's a viable combat choice or not... Edited March 12, 2013 by Krelian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 As far as leading the order goes, I tend to think that it will be Kaladin, if it matters. If Jezrien ends up leading the combined forces of anti-Odium, then the leader of the knights will just be a lieutenant, anyway. I favor Kaladin because leadership is the primary windrunner trait and his inclinations, not gender or level of advancement. I see Jasnah doing independant things, and would rather not bother leading because it would restrict her research activities. I could also imagine an administrative leader, like Dalinar's new role, with Kaladin as more of a field commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Edit: As far as the KR affecting their Plate, where do we see anything like that? The only time we see Surgebinding in combination with Shardplate is when Szeth assasinates the king at the very beginning of the novel... Kaladin didn't even try to engage the Parshendi Shardbearer with Surgebinding, so we have no idea whether that's a viable combat choice or not... I would agree we haven't overtly seen any Radiants doing any Surgebindings while wearing Plate. Although, some magic beyond that of regular Plate was clearly going on in Starfall, during Dalinar's vision. Dalinar's cracked Plate jumping from 40 feet up, and the Radiant from the vision fell out of the sky, going quick enough to make a crater in solid stone. Dalinar would have been killed if he'd tried something like that just wearing Plate. But anyway, I think that it's heavily implied that the Radiants must have had a way to Surgebind with their Plate on. Szeth's shown us that one of the most powerful weapons in a Windrunner's arsenal is their mobility and the ease speed at which they can move using the Lashings. Without that, a large portion of a Windrunner's advantage is gone. Again, going back to Dalinar's vision, I'd say it is a safe bet that the man in blue Plate was a Windrunner. He had to get in the sky somehow, didn't he? I think a lashing is the most viable option there, but the man was wearing Plate. Personally, I tend to believe that there is a way to form a bond with Plate just like you can with a Blade. The fact that bits an pieces of Plate seem to appear and disappear at will implies to me that it could once be summoned and dismissed like a Shardblade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Personally, I tend to believe that there is a way to form a bond with Plate just like you can with a Blade. The fact that bits an pieces of Plate seem to appear and disappear at will implies to me that it could once be summoned and dismissed like a Shardblade. I agree with that, on a personal level. I don't see where that implies you can easily affect other KR, etc. through Surgebinding or Soulcasting. I'm not saying it CAN'T, just that all evidence on Roshar and in the Cosmere so far seems to say that any investiture provides insulation. Szeth's Lashings against Shardplate, Allomancy against Feruchemical things in the body, etc.. Not necessarily that they can't be overcome, but I think it's a significant deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yeah, I did get off on a tangent there, didn't I? XD Where I was going with that, is that perhaps such a bond would allow you to get around Plate's dampening effects. Anyway, I still strongly believe that Surgebinders are able to effect one another, whether they're currently holding Stormlight or not. I don't see any easy way to definitively prove this one way or another short of asking him (and I think I've filled my quota for the day ) so I guess we'll see for sure in hopefully like 8ish months. If I am proven wrong, you have full gloating rights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Haha, I have my understanding right now. If Brandon smashes it to pieces in WoR, it's all good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Shardplate is heavily invested and, in turn, heavily invests the wearer. Its also heavily invested with the same power a Surgebinder is using. Lashings also seem to work by adding Investiture to another object or objects. All that combined makes it so a Surgebinder can't lash someone wearing Shardplate. However, a coinshot could probably push off of said plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 We have Word of Brandon that Allomancers can't push/pull off Shardplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Well, on average, yes. Full Mistborn Feruchemists could compete with pretty much anyone I think. Hell, Brandon said Scadrial will naturally develop faster than light travel based on their abilities. Feruchemists are a bit of a special case, since they can vary the rate at which they use Investiture. I wouldn't say that a feruchemist-mistborn is stronger than a Surgebinder, if they didn't have any metalminds until entering the fight I'd say that it's quite possible a Surgebinder would win. In both cases it depends on how much resources are available, how much stormlight to the Surgebinder and how much time and metal is available to the feruchemist-mistborn. FTL travel is also a matter of use, not strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Didn't Brandon say that Investiture interferes with other magics, or other types of investitures? That would suggest that whether they can affect each other depends primarily on how invested each of them are when they hold Stormlight and how powerfully they use it. I suspect that Kaladin holding Stormlight is not nearly as invested as a Shardplate, so although it would probably be harder for other Magic-users to affect him, would it be hard enough that they would notice the difference? That's the real question. "Not being lashed as strongly" or "being slightly more likely to cause a gem to crack when soulcast" is a far cry from being immune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=715#1 SwiftxJustice (Mon Jan 16) Quick question to help me settle a debate. Could allomancy affect a shard plate/blade? Brandon Sanderson (Mon Jan 16) No. Investiture interferes with most magics. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=593 In your gut instinct, who would win in a fight, Marsh (no atium, limited feruchemy) or Szeth? (Or maybe we could go Zane & Szeth since I see a lot of similarities in their characters. They also happen to be my favorites from their respective series)One of the interesting things I really liked about the book was Jasnah's lack of faith. It seems like during a lot of the scenes where that is an issue, you give her the upper hand. She makes some argument or point and the other characters leave it unchallenged. For instance the line where she says something like "Religion looks for super natural explanations to natural phenomena, science looks for natural explanations to super natural phenomena." That side of her seemed incredibly well written and genuine. Was it hard to do? Where did you get her arguments/points from? I swear a lot of what she says could of been ripped from comments of /r/atheism. Lastly, I've been rereading the Mistborn series again after reading The Way of Kings twice in a row so I could decide which I liked more. So far...it's still a tie. I'm really liking getting back into the Mistborn world though. That has me super excited for Alloy of Law. Once it get's a bit more polished would it be possible to get an early copy? :)/> Brandon Sanderson First question: It's always hard to answer these questions, since there are so many factors. Do the combatants start at a distance? If so, Marsh/Zane have a huge advantage; they have the ability to fling coins. Does Szeth have metal on him? Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object. But he'd still have trouble getting to them if he had a clasp on his shoes, for example. He doesn't carry a lot of metal, but he might have some. Overall, I'd say that a full-blown Mistborn would be tougher than Szeth in most cases. Also, send me a PM with your Email, Phaz. I can't find your email in my address book. I remember that it's not something I expect it to be, so I'm having trouble looking it up. Question of mistborn vs shardbearer is kinda given. Edited March 13, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 So if Investiture interferes with most magics, it's probably not absolute. For instance, the total investiture on Scandrial is pretty low. For example, somebody burning steel can still be affected by emotional Allomancy. It's probably a bit harder, though, but not much. So I doubt that the "immune to magic" effect just turns on or turns off as things become more invested. It seems more likely that it is more like weight, which adds up until it can't be moved. Shardplate and Shardblades are then "several tons" in this system, while Allomancers are feather-weight. Then the real question is how invested Kaladin is while holding stormlight. I'd say more than an Allomancer but less than an Elantrian. (He glows, but not that much.) But that's just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkthinker Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) It's also easy to point out that Plate and Blades aren't necessarily made of "metal". It's shiny and tough like metal, but it shatters rather than dents and it grows back. Both Plate and Blade exhibit other non-metal properties. Edited March 12, 2013 by Inkthinker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Szeth's Blade, at least, is made of metal of some kind, according to that Brandon quote, since it's only "mostly immune" to pushing and pulling, and Brandon attributes that immunity to its Investiture. Another Investiture quote: Q: Szeth mentions that Lashings don't work with shardplate (on?). Is there any way to get around this (As in, lashing with shardplate on, or lashing people with shardplate on), and, if so, does it have anything to do with the Knights Radiant and/or their ideals?A: This has to do with the nature of the magics in the cosmere. They interfere with one another. Something that contains a lot of power--we call it investiture--resists the efforts of magic to influence it. A strong spirit can interfere as well. Nothing really new besides Investiture being akin to spirit, but the more the merrier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Nothing really new besides Investiture being akin to spirit, but the more the merrier. Well, a distinct thing from spirit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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