Hemalurgy on Steroids?

[Guest]

So I was just doing some WoB reading and I came across this: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1108#30

 

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets. Q: Through the heart seems to pick up universally. A: It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This is designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerves you're hitting and things like that Q: So the spike will never pick up more than one power. A: Not the way they know how to do it.

 

So this got me thinking, "What is the minimum required to steal an ability, and how many can you get at once?"

The answer's pretty terrifying... let me explain

 

What we know:

Hitting a Bindpoint with the right Metal/Alloy steals some of an ability

Multiple Bindpoints can steal the same ability

Bindpoints are at least as small as nerves

The Subject does not have to die

Spikes do not have to be particularly large (Koloss Spikes are fairly small, and yet Sazed says that the Koloss were increasing the charge by respiking)

Melting down or reshaping a spike does not destroy the charge (though it may hasten Hemalurgic decay)

 

All together, this tells me that it should be possible to get 100% of an individuals Hemalurgic capability without actually killing the subject, so long as you have enough needles in enough bindpoints, and the needles are small enough and accurate enough...

 

The result would be something like this:

 

You would then take all the needles containing the same ability, melt them together, and spike yourself.

Edited May 20, 2015 by LabRat

[Fatel28]

Would melting them together work? Wouldn't certain alloys be created, changing what ability they can steal?

[Arook he/him]

You could melt the ones of the same metal and combine them but that would not be as effective as just using one spike. The loss created would be to great just pushing the spike through the subject into the intended recipient would be far more effective. you lose very little charge by not having any time out of a body. Though you should be able to use the same one over to steal more until it is full. More bodies not needles is a better way.

[Guest]

You could melt the ones of the same metal and combine them but that would not be as effective as just using one spike. The loss created would be to great just pushing the spike through the subject into the intended recipient would be far more effective. you lose very little charge by not having any time out of a body. Though you should be able to use the same one over to steal more until it is full. More bodies not needles is a better way.

 

This depends on a couple of factors:

1) How much of a persons total capability is stolen with a single Spike? It can't be 100%, or else a Gold Compounder would only be capable of creating a single Gold Feruchemy Spike and I've seen multiple people talking about Gold Compounders making a number of Spikes.

If we assume that a single Spike steals even as much as 50% capability (I would suspect less, probably 12-25%, given there are 8 known bind points), then my idea will drain a much larger amount and make up for the Hemalurgical decay. (90-100% then 50% decayed, vs 25% with no decay)

 

2) How many abilities does the person have? Using 1 Spike per person would mean wasting 1 of a Twinborn's abilities, or 15 of a Mistborn's abilities.  Also, any "normal" resident of Scadrial will still have Investiture that can be stolen (eg: physical strength, better senses)

 

3) Where are you doing this? Local law enforcement is far more likely to pay attention to someone leaving a trail of smashed corpses than they are if you leave behind a few crazy people still alive and walking around.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

It can't be 100%, or else a Gold Compounder would only be capable of creating a single Gold Feruchemy Spike and I've seen multiple people talking about Gold Compounders making a number of Spikes.

 

Gold Compounders would only be able to create multiple gold Allomancy spikes.  Their Feruchemy is healing the part of the soul that is removed.  If you spike out their Feruchemy they can't heal it back.

[Moogle]

Gold Compounders would only be able to create multiple gold Allomancy spikes.  Their Feruchemy is healing the part of the soul that is removed.  If you spike out their Feruchemy they can't heal it back.

 

Actually, Gold Compounders could just burn a goldmind they made to heal back their Feruchemical gold ability. Though it is possible the burn would not be strong enough to do so, I recall a big deal was made about it being very 'bursty' in the books.

[Arook he/him]

This depends on a couple of factors:

1) How much of a persons total capability is stolen with a single Spike? It can't be 100%, or else a Gold Compounder would only be capable of creating a single Gold Feruchemy Spike and I've seen multiple people talking about Gold Compounders making a number of Spikes.

If we assume that a single Spike steals even as much as 50% capability (I would suspect less, probably 12-25%, given there are 8 known bind points), then my idea will drain a much larger amount and make up for the Hemalurgical decay. (90-100% then 50% decayed, vs 25% with no decay)

 

2) How many abilities does the person have? Using 1 Spike per person would mean wasting 1 of a Twinborn's abilities, or 15 of a Mistborn's abilities.  Also, any "normal" resident of Scadrial will still have Investiture that can be stolen (eg: physical strength, better senses)

 

3) Where are you doing this? Local law enforcement is far more likely to pay attention to someone leaving a trail of smashed corpses than they are if you leave behind a few crazy people still alive and walking around.

 

ya but how much is lost is hard to tell and my understanding of taking directly from one to the next person gets far more then 25%.

 

I did not disagree with keeping them alive until you finished taking all powers just that melting down a hundred spikes would not be as efficient that is all.

 

Also don't leave the bodies, crazy people can talk still.

[Voidus]

Yeah as was mentioned it's only gold that allows for multiple spikes, spikes take very near to 100% of the ability.

As for using multiple spikes to get all powers, we have no way of knowing if this would work and I suspect that it wouldn't, we have yet to see anyone be non-lethally spiked but I suspect it would damage their other abilities too much for them to be retrievable, otherwise TLR and Ruin wouldn't have wasted so many feruchemists just stealing one ability from them.

[Guest]

Yeah as was mentioned it's only gold that allows for multiple spikes, spikes take very near to 100% of the ability.

100% of the Ability, or 100% of the USABLE Ability? All the Terris people have Feruchemical heritage, but only ones with concentrated Feruchemy can use it, meaning that a person can have a Feruchemical value greater than 0 that does not allow Feruchemy to be used. Depending on how high that threshold is, there might be nothing worthwhile or there might be a wealth of power below that threshold.

Allomantic ability is similar.

I remember reading somewhere that you could spike even a non-misting Scadrian for allomantic ability and get a (weak) Hemalurgic Charge out of it.

[Arook he/him]

100% of the Ability, or 100% of the USABLE Ability? All the Terris people have Feruchemical heritage, but only ones with concentrated Feruchemy can use it, meaning that a person can have a Feruchemical value greater than 0 that does not allow Feruchemy to be used. Depending on how high that threshold is, there might be nothing worthwhile or there might be a wealth of power below that threshold.

Allomantic ability is similar.

I remember reading somewhere that you could spike even a non-misting Scadrian for allomantic ability and get a (weak) Hemalurgic Charge out of it.

 

In this context I would say that the % of the portion of the SDNA associated with that power. 

 

So if it is possible to take power from someone that does not actually have the ability but is a recessive trait laying dormant in a person it should grant power albeit very little but usable. Feruchemy is more complex because what is the limiting factor what is lost while the charge is transferred. It can not be power because that is internal and speed is the other factor in power. Capacity is not a function of the user but the metal the user has available. So what is the difference from 100% feruchemical power and 10% other than available metals to store into. For that matter is there any benefit from 200 % over 100% power. 

[natc]

Well whether that dormant fragment gives useable power at all, I assume, depends on whether the total of the recipient and the spike add up enough to reach the minimum threshold.

[Guest]

Also don't leave the bodies, crazy people can talk still.

 

Hemalurgy takes memories

 

In this context I would say that the % of the portion of the SDNA associated with that power. 

 

So if it is possible to take power from someone that does not actually have the ability but is a recessive trait laying dormant in a person it should grant power albeit very little but usable. Feruchemy is more complex because what is the limiting factor what is lost while the charge is transferred. It can not be power because that is internal and speed is the other factor in power. Capacity is not a function of the user but the metal the user has available. So what is the difference from 100% feruchemical power and 10% other than available metals to store into. For that matter is there any benefit from 200 % over 100% power. 

 

I've been wondering about this myself, and the only conclusion I can come to is one of accuracy. On the low end of the spectrum, you can store stuff but in a general type of way (I can store my weight in 20% increments. I can gauge how full a metalmind is to about 10%), but on the high end you can be much more precise (I can store my weight in 2% increments.  I can gauge how full a metalmind is to about 1%).

 

I don't mean that normal people would THINK in 2% increments when storing, but rather if you were to take someone on the high end of power and put them on a scale, they could adjust their weight 2% at a time (So a 200lb person could be 196lbs, 200lbs, or 204lbs, but never 202lbs).

[Arook he/him]

Well whether that dormant fragment gives useable power at all, I assume, depends on whether the total of the recipient and the spike add up enough to reach the minimum threshold.

 

But see that is the thing is there a minimum. With how ferrings and mistings are, you have the genetic potential of a feruchemist or mistborn but are unable to use more than one. With power level in allomancers some are stronger than others like vin an Eland. But even vin is only slightly stronger in power than others in this age. Even with mistings verses mist born they all are about the same strength. With allomancy the power's strength is what is lost when a spike sits before implantation. So what is lost when a feruchemical spike sits?

 

I think it is more of an on off option that gets stolen and the power level in allomancy weakens

[WindrunnerRadiant he/him]

Hemalurgy takes memories

 

 

I've been wondering about this myself, and the only conclusion I can come to is one of accuracy. On the low end of the spectrum, you can store stuff but in a general type of way (I can store my weight in 20% increments. I can gauge how full a metalmind is to about 10%), but on the high end you can be much more precise (I can store my weight in 2% increments.  I can gauge how full a metalmind is to about 1%).

 

I don't mean that normal people would THINK in 2% increments when storing, but rather if you were to take someone on the high end of power and put them on a scale, they could adjust their weight 2% at a time (So a 200lb person could be 196lbs, 200lbs, or 204lbs, but never 202lbs).

I doubt this has much to do with innate ability. Sure, there might be some talent, but it is more like a trained thing. Just like using bronze takes practice to know what Allomancers are using and how, rather than the pure feeling of knowing Allomancy is being used.

[Guest]

I doubt this has much to do with innate ability. Sure, there might be some talent, but it is more like a trained thing. Just like using bronze takes practice to know what Allomancers are using and how, rather than the pure feeling of knowing Allomancy is being used.

Vin's Duralumin Bronze scan of Breeze shows that at least for Allomancy, power=sensitivity.

With my idea, there'd still be skill involved. Someone at the 2% end of the spectrum would work in 8 or 10% jumps when they first start storing, refine the ability to 4% through practice, and learn to accomplish 2% only with careful concentration.

[natc]

But see that is the thing is there a minimum. With how ferrings and mistings are, you have the genetic potential of a feruchemist or mistborn but are unable to use more than one. With power level in allomancers some are stronger than others like vin an Eland. But even vin is only slightly stronger in power than others in this age. Even with mistings verses mist born they all are about the same strength. With allomancy the power's strength is what is lost when a spike sits before implantation. So what is lost when a feruchemical spike sits?

I think it is more of an on off option that gets stolen and the power level in allomancy weakens

Dormant mistings snapped by the mist apparently have the potential that was buried too deep to function awakened by the power, so there probably is a minimum threshold somewhere.

[Arook he/him]

To awaken maybe but once awakened I think most had a fair amount of power once awakened. I mean a coin shot that can't move a coin faster than a BB gun is not very useful.

[Guest]

Dormant mistings snapped by the mist apparently have the potential that was buried too deep to function awakened by the power, so there probably is a minimum threshold somewhere.

 

In HoA's Annotations Brandon talks about what and how the Mist's are snapping people.  From what I recall, the Mist's are actually raising a persons Allomantic Potential to make them "Snappable"

[Guest]

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-mistborn-3-chapter-forty-nine-part-2/

[Arook he/him]

Ok so then you would need to reclaim something like 50% from a group of people to gain access to the person's power. being there is no way to tell how much you got if any it makes stealing from none powered relatives harder.

[natc]

Well thanks for not even contradicting me :/

[Guest]

Eh? I confirmed what you were saying

[natc]

Tone doesn't come across very well on the internet, and honestly that could've gone either way.

[Adamir he/him]

That... is... terrifying.

 

Just an idea: Put a group of people in a straight line, and have the one in the lead standing slightly to the side, so that a bullet that hits the others through the heart will instead strike one of his bind points, and get stuck. Shoot through them (don't ask me how one bullet would get through ten people in one shot, only to get stuck in the eleventh), and even if there's hemalurgic decay, with the speed of bullets it will be almost completely unnoticeable.

[Guest]

I like the idea of lining people up if you're just going for 1 ability, but I think bullets are to erratic... *pulls out 20 foot lance made of pure pewter* Human shish kabob anyone?