Era Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 How did the alethi manage to lose 560 shards and why is there no history of this happening. I am talking about the vision dalinar had where the 300 soldiers in shard dropped their shards and walked off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 That's an almost certain RAFO, there's plenty of speculation though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 My personal theory is that some secret organizations gathered some of them up, and also that a Herald went around collecting them all. And that at some point that Herald will die and scatter a thousand Shardblades around. I'm not sure if that can be done for Plate as well, or if those were hidden away elsewhere. Your estimate of 560 is actually pretty low compared to most. If we consider that those two Orders weren't even fully represented and that there were 300 of them, and that every Radiant had a Shardblade and Plate most estimates put the numbers of Shardblades at over 1500. Dalinar knows of less than 100 Blades in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 My personal theory is that Hoid collected them all, took them back to his home base and uses them to cut his hair when he needs to disguise himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Your estimate of 560 is actually pretty low compared to most. If we consider that those two Orders weren't even fully represented and that there were 300 of them, and that every Radiant had a Shardblade and Plate most estimates put the numbers of Shardblades at over 1500. Dalinar knows of less than 100 Blades in existence. Waaaaay more than1500 I think. You are only considering he last generation of radiants. If they all had blades and plate and they were around for 10 generations or so (around 800 years) then the figure would be closer to 15,000! That is a lot of missing shards. Even if he older ones are buried with their holders they would still be around somewhere... Urithiru maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Waaaaay more than1500 I think. You are only considering he last generation of radiants. If they all had blades and plate and they were around for 10 generations or so (around 800 years) then the figure would be closer to 15,000! That is a lot of missing shards. Even if he older ones are buried with their holders they would still be around somewhere... Urithiru maybe? I may have missed something (again), but what gave you the idea that "they were around for 10 generations or so" or "800 years"? And why do you think, that each generation got new Blades (and Plates)? Ah, I see, if they were buried with their holders. Today this would be kind of a sacrilege on Roshar, but it may have been usual back then -- after all, back then the creation of new Shards were well-known. Still I'd like to hold on my next idea: I think the Plates and Blades would be given away to the next generation (whereas "generation" not exactly means a familiar generation but the next trained Knights). So even if sometimes a Knight or two got lost (and their Blades/Plates with them), the number of Shardblades/-Plates wouldn't increase so much. Apart from this I like the idea of staples of Blades and Plates lost in Urithiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Waaaaay more than1500 I think. You are only considering he last generation of radiants. If they all had blades and plate and they were around for 10 generations or so (around 800 years) then the figure would be closer to 15,000! That is a lot of missing shards. Even if he older ones are buried with their holders they would still be around somewhere... Urithiru maybe? I don't think they had an endless supply of Blades and Plates or the ability to produce more, but that they were passed on. Even if the Blades weren't quite as rare back then, I think they were still too valuable and useful to bury with their users. Also, 10 generations would be more like 250 years, if we consider average age at childbirth to be 25, and it would usually be even lower for agrarian societies. I think hundreds of years could pass between Desolations, and the Knight Radiant Orders might not have been around for all of the Desolations, but they were around for more than just a few of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Knights Radiants were around for thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 I always supposed they got lost or shattered beyond repair. 3000 years are a long time. a shardbearer on a ship sink to the bottom of the ocean, another shattering his plate beyond repair to not let it fall in enemy hand, a blade sank in a mudslide... granted, losing a shard is not common, but it may happen eventually in 3000 years. It is also possible that most of them are left in urithiru, and no one knows how to go there. or that someone is gathering them, but why? if they have 500 shards, they can already conquer the world, so I don't see why they should work in secrecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 I don't think they had an endless supply of Blades and Plates or the ability to produce more, but that they were passed on. Even if the Blades weren't quite as rare back then, I think they were still too valuable and useful to bury with their users. Also, 10 generations would be more like 250 years, if we consider average age at childbirth to be 25, and it would usually be even lower for agrarian societies. I think hundreds of years could pass between Desolations, and the Knight Radiant Orders might not have been around for all of the Desolations, but they were around for more than just a few of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Knights Radiants were around for thousands of years. I am not sold on the idea of heirloom blades myself, but only because it doesn't fit in with my theory of how they are made :P/>. I think that the plate and blade are the ultimate expression of surgebinding, spiritual energy made manifest as weapons and armour, tied to the maker's soul. I also think that it doesn't have to be a sword, just that the KR were trained in the sword, so that is what got made by them. In that sense the blade / plate is very personal item and would be interred with the holder on their death. If they were passed down then this implies that there were only a certain number ever made (presumably by one of the Shards / Heralds) and were given to the KR. SO did the KR never get any larger than the number of Blades / Plate Sets? Alternatively, how did they decide who should weild the limited number? Also I guess there is a narrative point (although not a strong argument I admit) in that I am sure that Kaladin will end up weilding a Shard Weapon and if they cannot be created then that will have to be a sword... only Kaladin doesn't know how to use a sword. My hope is that he will create a Shardspear as the ultimate expression of his power. damnation that would be cool I am getting goose bumps just thinking about the awesome of that! Another thought has occurred to me as I type this... Suppose that a blade (or Plate set) crumbles to dust when the origninal holder / maker dies UNLESS it was voluntarily given away by them? That would allow them to be made for all KR and for there to be a limited number in the modern era. Sorry, ended up rambling again.... need to take my pills... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 What if the numbers of Blade and Plate are fixed, but Knight Radiants could adapt these to themselves upon reaching the pinnacle of their training? Kaladin could still get a Shardspear like that. The Plate has already shown a lesser degree of adaption with its "one size fits all" ability. Either through their own power, or with the aid of their Nahel bondspren. Also, in Dalinar's flashback, the Knight Radiants appeared to have the ability to conjure up their helmets and dismiss them at will. There are aspects to Plate which aren't known modern day users on Roshar, there might also be something unknown about the Blades as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I am not sold on the idea of heirloom blades myself, but only because it doesn't fit in with my theory of how they are made . I think that the plate and blade are the ultimate expression of surgebinding, spiritual energy made manifest as weapons and armour, tied to the maker's soul. I also think that it doesn't have to be a sword, just that the KR were trained in the sword, so that is what got made by them. In that sense the blade / plate is very personal item and would be interred with the holder on their death. If they were passed down then this implies that there were only a certain number ever made (presumably by one of the Shards / Heralds) and were given to the KR. SO did the KR never get any larger than the number of Blades / Plate Sets? Alternatively, how did they decide who should weild the limited number? ... Sorry, ended up rambling again.... need to take my pills... Do this pills work? If yes, please send me some :-). Now earnest, I like your idea how the Blades/Plates could have been made ... but where then do the ones come from that are in use "nowadays"? As for the number of Knights Radiant: I think one could say the were the elite of soldiers. And I think no elite is endless. So for example if there would be 100 KR per order then they will be filled if they lose one. KR were not immortal. Maybe there were times when there were less than 100 in an order. The invitation that Harlaykain made to Heb/Dalinar did not mean that it was sure he would become a KR too. This, I think, not only because he might have been not good enough to ascend as KR. The more fights, the more KR would have died, the more aspirants were needed and could ascend. But I think that there were times when aspirants could not ascend because of "no need". And Harlaykain said it was not his decision who ascends and who not, what implies that this decisions were made by man, and not by spren as one could believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 It seems to me that the Shardblades and Shardplate represented a significant investment of the power of creation. If new knights made their own weapons, the weapons of knights who died would have been destroyed somehow to preserve Shardic investment. I read the knights in the Midnight Essence vision as implying that they recruited in the buildup to a desolation. Thus there would be a peacetime size and larger Desolation numbers. Kaladin was a natural with a spear. I don't see why he couldn't be equally "natural" with a sword and pick it up quickly enough to work effectively in less than a book or two. If he were superbly talented in all aspects of fighting, that leaves me wondering about his genetic endowment. Does "Child of Honor" imply something about his ancestors? It also seems to me that the Shardblades and Shardplate are a destabilizing force, so any dictator would want to limit the number in circulation. Thus the Hierocracy and the Sunmaker would each have reason to hide or destroy them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Shardblades are way less magical than nightblood, though. So they can't be *that* significant an investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Shardblades are way less magical than nightblood, though. So they can't be *that* significant an investment. If we assume that the two orders we saw at feverstone keep are the only ones with the Shardblades and Shardplate and that's all there is, then 600 sets. If all orders each have 300, then 3000 sets. If all orders have them, have normal lifespans, are buried with them, and each new knight gets a new set, then many, many thousands. I think even the 600 sets are a significant shardic investment, and the 3000 would definitely be. My point is that while 3. is appealing, I doubt it works like that (unless the plate and blades decay underground) just from the point of view of Shardic energy (not to mention the danger of grave robbers, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Well, the quote we have is that nightblood is 'orders of magnitude' more magical than a shardblade. Even if we're going on a high end, and saying that shardblade is equivalent to ~50 breath... the god-king alone has 50,000+ Breaths, and each of the Returned has 2000 - and there about 25 of those in the court of the gods, so that's another 50k. Plus, of course, the Breath that everyone has to start off with. I really don't think that the amount gathered in Hallandren's capital should be enough to be a 'significant' shardic investment. After all, if a shardblade's magicalness is at maximum equal to fifty random guys on Nalthis, it doesn't feel like they should be metaphysically expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirShemmington VI Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 I see the lost blades turning up in a situation similar to the end of The hero of ages, suddenly turning up to turn an army into a badass army of death machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptoss1 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I see the lost blades turning up in a situation similar to the end of The hero of ages, suddenly turning up to turn an army into a badass army of death machines. All for Kaladin's bridgemen. They all die anyways, but they'll be epic doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Where do the shardplades come from when they are summoned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 Where do the shardplades come from when they are summoned? Some people seem to believe that they are stored in the Spiritual or Cognitive Realm, but I can't find confirmation anywhere. Back in November 2011 Brandon said it was RAFO that would be addressed in later books: http://brandonsanderson.com/article/93/Tweets-November-14-16-2011 I always thought they were summoned from a central location in the physical realm, but that's pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj26792 he/him Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 the spiritual realm is where the blades are stored while not in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja he/him Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 the spiritual realm is where the blades are stored while not in use. I'm trying to find the source for that, since I've seen it repeated a few times on here. It's on the wiki too, but there's no source there either, so it could just be speculation that someone added. I find it strange that something with a physical form can be stored in a place where there are no physical forms, but there is something similar that happens with the Shardholder's bodies. The power of the Shard 'vaporizes' their body, but it doesn't actually destroy it, when a Shardholder dies, their body drops to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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