Bloodlines and the Knights Radiant

[Meg]

Bear with me, I have another idea (not a theory, no evidences, just a thought coming up reading another thread):

I feel still confident that the Heralds are immortal. Whether or not they can sire children isn't my question, too.

But what about the Knights Radiant? We don't no anything about their personal life. But would it be far-fetched to assume that at least some of them founded families or/and sired children? And, maybe this bloodlines will be of importance now, when the True Desolation is announced (or has just begun whereof I'm not convinced). So maybe Kaladin, Shallan, "the Kholinars" (for Dalinar as well as Navani as well as Adolin were mentioned as Radiants-to-be) and whomever have blood of the Knights Radiant and are therefor forgone to become the nowadays Knights Radiant.

Could this be an aspect to discuss?

[Dros]

I don't think that's ever been mentioned or asked, actually. Interesting. I'm trying to remember what the name of the group is that is awaiting the return of the KR, but I'm coming up with nothing. One of Kaladin's Bridge 4 mates used to be tangentially involved with the group, but I can't remember his name either. In any event, maybe such a group was founded by children/grandchildren of the Radiants?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Droz

[Cheese Ninja]

Teft and his family had belonged to the Envisagers.

And I need to tell the Envisagers, he thought. I need to…

The Envisagers were gone. Dead, because of what he had done. If there were others, he had no idea how to locate them.

“Maybe,” Teft said. “My parents believed in all of it. The Immortal Words, the Ideals, the Knights Radiant, the Almighty. Even old Vorinism. In fact, especially old Vorinism.”

I don't think that bloodlines are nearly as important in the Stormlight Archive as they are in Mistborn. The way to become a Surgebinder on Roshar seems to be to attract spren, form a Nahel bond with it/them, and then, depending on what type of spren was bonded (I think that determines which Order the Surgebinder is in.), use Stormlight to power their two particular Surges. It doesn't matter who your parents were.

I do think it's possible that more of the Kholinars will become Surgebinders, but I think it will be due to environmental factors, and not hereditary factors. If spren that can form Nahel bonds are attracted to presence of pre-existing Surgebinder bonds, they may end up gathering around Kaladin, Jasnah, and Shallan, and then being attracted to individuals who meet their criteria. Since Dalinar follows the philosophies of the Way of Kings book, which is something of a manual for Knights Radiants, and encourages his troops to follow those precepts as well, that might be another part of forming Nahel bonds.

[Dros]

I was thinking more along the lines of knowing the history of the Radiants, not really having the predisposed DNA to become one. If the KRs had family, I imagine they didn't just leave them too. And if they didn't, wouldn't those children have grown up with some stories of life before, during and after the Recreance? As fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, nieces, etc, certianly someone in their family would have at least observed some behaviors or conversations of particular interest. Unless they really did just vanish without a trace.

[Cheese Ninja]

That sounds completely reasonable.

They may have vanished without a trace, but I'm more prone to believe the same as you, that the Knights Radiants alive at the time simply faded into obscurity after abandoning their Plates and Blades.

[Meg]

It may or may not be that the bloodlines are unimportant. But I still think a kind of inheritance (deliverance) was left.

We don't know much about the Envisagers but we know that they held up the memories of the Knights Radiant. There may be others doing this too. Teft's mother had read 'The Way of Kings' and she taught Teft about the KR. Shallan's father apparently had the book too and she had read it ("I have read through ..., and -- of course -- Nohadon." TWoK Chapter 5). This book also is a kind of inheritance and it seems that it is not that rare than one (Dalinar) might think.

So, please, don't pin me down on the bloodlines :)/>.

(And another "spark" in my mind: May Lirin be an Envisager too or descended from one or was taught by one?)

[Stormfather]

Droz, this could be an Elantrain situation. Galladon grew up in Elantris and knew very little about them and how things worked. The KR may be a similar thing, war and fighting were viewed as a necessary evil that they bore and so it might have been something they didn't like talking about even to their family.

[Voidus]

I like this theory, but mostly just because it supports my own theory that Shallan's father also had Soulcasting abilities and his Soulcaster was a fake as well.

[Meg]

Interesting thread, Voidus, I enjoyed reading even without cookies. :-)

So, okay, there is no classical bloodline-heritage. :-)

But I still cling on my idea of deliverances.

I don't think it is that important whether (or better: how much of) the Knights Radiant passed on their knowledge. Some did, I'm sure. And there might have been others around them who kept their knowledge too. Just like 'The Way of Kings' survived. There are the Envisagers (my sweeties): holding up the remembrance for, I think, a good intention. There are the Ghostbloods who, I think, know about Surgebinding but don't seem to be on the "good side" (as far as I understood about them until know). There may be other groups, families or tribes that know about the Knights Radiant's lore and kept this knowledge (perhaps more or less (un)wittingly).

But I personally think that somebody without any linkage to this lore will be the exception rather than the 'rule' to become a 'Radiant-to-be' (what, maybe, is kind of contrary to the premise that actions bring magic on Roshar). That would explain the increased occurrence of 'Radiants-to-be' in the Kholin-family (if only because they are linked to 'The Way of Kings').

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I like this theory, but mostly just because it supports my own theory that Shallan's father also had Soulcasting abilities and his Soulcaster was a fake as well.

Which supports my theory that all soulcasters are fake.

[Meg]

Which supports my theory that all soulcasters are fake.

Ha! Now I have an excuse for going (slightly) off topic: After reading Voidus' thread and remembering how Kaladin (actually: Syl) found out, how Kaladin (and Szeth too) uses the Stormlight I think that the "item Soulcaster" is just the battery that holds the energy (Stormlight) which is used for (Surgebinding and) Soulcasting. Just like spheres but bigger, capable of holding more Stormlight than just that "little" spheres. So I think a Soulcaster (the person) could also have a big pouch full with spheres instead of a "Soulcaster" (item). And I think, the Soulcaster (item) is not needed to be shown to others while soulcasting -- it's more of a show for making soulcasting more mysterious. And sure it would be easier to have one item instead of a lot of spheres.

And -- my brain rumbles around -- why is soulcasting known 'nowadays' (it seems that soulcasting Ardents are normal) but not the other abilities of the KR? Did I miss something here?

[Dros]

I imagine the splintering of Honor has impacted the magic system in unpredictable ways. People would need to find new ways to access Honor's power, maybe Soulcasting is the only way they found out how to do that again without the Oaths.

[Voidus]

I imagine the splintering of Honor has impacted the magic system in unpredictable ways. People would need to find new ways to access Honor's power, maybe Soulcasting is the only way they found out how to do that again without the Oaths.

Well if they really do Soulcast with fabrials then all of those still access Honor's power, if it's Surgebinding then there's no reason that the other Order's shouldn't still exist either. And the splintering of Devotion hasn't seemed to do much damage to the magic on Sel, so I can't see why it should on Roshar.

[Stormfather]

Droz your post gave me a random thought. What if the reason the Shardplate doesn't glow anymore like it did with the KR is because Honor has been killed since then and their stuff was in association with him, so then their power is now a bit random and doesn't work as it used to.

any thoughts?

EDIT: or maybe it's people taking the armor without speaking the oaths?

Edited February 1, 2013 by Stormfather

[Voidus]

Droz your post gave me a random thought. What if the reason the Shardplate doesn't glow anymore like it did with the KR is because Honor has been killed since then and their stuff was in association with him, so then their power is now a bit random and doesn't work as it used to.

any thoughts?

EDIT: or maybe it's people taking the armor without speaking the oaths?

I think that second one is the one that most people think, either that or it has something to do with Spren, although I do like that first one.

[Meg]

Droz your post gave me a random thought. What if the reason the Shardplate doesn't glow anymore like it did with the KR is because Honor has been killed since then and their stuff was in association with him, so then their power is now a bit random and doesn't work as it used to.

any thoughts?

EDIT: or maybe it's people taking the armor without speaking the oaths?

Hm, when I read this part I understood that loosing of light more as a consequence of abondoning the Shard-Sets by the Knights Radiant. Because their intention was to leave their duty and so the Sets stayed but without the right persons to wear them they are minor to the combination KR/Sets.

I read your posting more the other way around: Honor Splintered and then the KR left their duty. But would not the Sets have lost their "radiance" then before the KR put them off?

[Dros]

EDIT: Double post-sry

Edited February 1, 2013 by Droz

[Dros]

I tend to agree with Voidus on this. The Shardplate immediately stopped glowing when the KR dropped them and I believe the modern Shardplate must have gems in them to operate...isn't that correct? So, in my opinion whatever made them glow came from the KR themselves.

[Elwynn]

Got to go with Voidus and Droz here, and probably many others as well.

But to back it up.

Dalinar's Plate starts to glow a little bit like the KR of old when he is rescuing Elhokar from the Greatshell.

Almost like an early version of Kaladin almost glowing when he's fighting the Shardbearer in the beginning.

Probably a telling of something to come.

[hoser]

We have a vision wherein two orders of radiants abandon their weapons and armor and march away. What happened to them then?

Possibilities:

1. Merged w/society and their descendents are lighteyes (but wouldn't they have been recognized and we'd know that that was what happened?)
   
2. Mass suicide/vow of Chastity (but why walk away to commit suicide rather than do it right away)
   
3. Form a Radiant society somewhere else secretly
   
4. Form a non-Radiant society somewhere else
   

I think the descendents are somewhere and we will find them.

On the subject of bloodlines, why is Kaladin such a good fighter? He is not a lighteyes. His fighting abilities manifested as a child before his behavior was particularly honorable. He was also an amazing fighter in the army before Syl was attracted to him. Is it inheritance, or was he chosen somehow? Tien doesn't seem to have the same abilities.

[Meg]

At first I have to admit, that don't understand some of the postings here (not the one I quote below). So there could be a gasp in my thoughts because of this.

On the subject of bloodlines, why is Kaladin such a good fighter? He is not a lighteyes. His fighting abilities manifested as a child before his behavior was particularly honorable. He was also an amazing fighter in the army before Syl was attracted to him. Is it inheritance, or was he chosen somehow? Tien doesn't seem to have the same abilities.

Kaladin is not a lighteyes but does this mean that nobody of his ancestors had been one? At least he has black hair what points to a longer row of Alethi ancestors. This I only add though I see that bloodlines seem not to be really important on Roshar.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Meg

[Meg]

I hope this doesn't count as a double-posting :-).

I take this thread for may question because it's sort of relating, but my question is mostly about understanding/translating:

Jasnah says:

“Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability;"

(TWoK Ch. 72)

Please, may someone help me about "inherent". If I look this up in a dictionary there are different translations given:

angeboren:

• inherent {adj}
  
• innate {adj}
  
• congenital {adj}
  
• native {adj}
  
• inherently {adv}
  
• hereditary {adj} [factor, characteristic]
  
• inborn {adj}
  
• inbred {adj}
  
• congenitally {adv}
  
• constitutional {adj}
  
• natural {adj}
  
• connate {adj}
  
• natively {adv}
  
• instinctive {adj}
  
• temperamental {adj} [laziness etc.]
  

innewohnend

• inherent {adj}
  
• intrinsic {adj}
  
• immanent {adj}
  
• indwelling {adj}
  

dazugehörend

• inherent {adj}
  
• appertaining {adj} {pres-p}
  
• belonging to it
  
• appertaining to
  

anhaftend

• inherent {adj}
  
• adhesive {adj}
  
• adherent {adj}
  
• inherently {adv}
  
• inhering
  
• adhesively {adv}
  
• adherently {adv}
  
• adherent to
  
• inherent (in)
  

... ... ...

In the German book it's transcribed with "angeboren" which I also would prefer.

But: If actions are the most important basis for any change on Roshar, why is it mentioned that the KR had "inherent abilities"?

How did you read this sentence? Did you understand "inherent" as "born with" or more as "adhesive"?

Sorry for such questions but as reading is always interpreting too I might do some mis-interpreting also because of mis-understanding (the "-" are intended :-))

[FlashWrogan]

Innewohnend seems to be the best translation for how I would interpret the word in that context. Either that or some of the words under angeboren such as natural or innate. In the context of that conversation we see Jasnah and Shallan talking about truthspren, and the common belief held is that spren are what give the KR powers. I think it likely that Jasnah is thinking the same way, and her stating that the KR powers are inherited seem out of place.

[Senor Feesh]

My interpretation of this was that they have possess/wield the power instinctively, much as Kaladin does with his Windrunner powers. So, rather than needing to be taught, they possess the power by 'being', or acting, a certain way (according to the ideals of the KR).

I'm afraid I don't know German to be able to weigh in on the best translation.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think by 'inherent' they mean 'these orders can soulcast without using a fabriel'.