A couple odd thoughts

[Rlain]

1. Is there an upper limit on the number of Returned that can be alive at once?
   
2. Do decedents of Returned (the royal family) have enhanced BioChroma? I can't find another reason why they would have the ability to change their bodies (usually seen with their hair color). That being said, in his excerpts from warbreaker chapter 22 Sanderson says that "Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks."
   
3. Does a returned need to perform something pertaining to endowment (their supernatural healing) in order to pass their breaths onto a child of theirs? If so, this would explain why the godkings always give up their lives closely following their child's birth.
   
4. What happens if you give more breaths to a lifeless after they have been awakened.?
   
5. The Returned ability to modify your physical appearance reminds me of Soul Stamps. They're convincing themselves that they are something else.
   

Shabbat is starting soon, so I'll post more odd thoughts later, but I thought maybe someone here had thought of these as well and it was possible someone has an answer to some of them.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Twinborn

[Senor Feesh]

[*] Does a returned need to perform something pertaining to endowment (their supernatural healing) in order to pass their breaths onto a child of theirs? If so, this would explain why the godkings always give up their lives closely following their child's birth.

I'd pretty much taken it as read that the god-king's probably DON'T have children - the priesthood just wait until they have another instance of a Returned child, find the god-king a wife to make things plausible, and bang! 9 months later, we have a new god-king!

[Kurkistan]

On the other questions:

1. Almost certainly. Divine Breaths are Splinters of Endowment, who has only finite amounts of power to distribute at any one time. It's almost certainly an absurdly high threshold, though.

2. The Royal family somehow passes around a sliver of a Divine Breath from the first Returned, likely through Cognitive interactions with inheritance, which gives them the Locks. As far as I know, it's just a weird, limited, oddly expressed, and more fluctuating version of the full-body makeovers full Returned are capable of. So it flows more from a special expression of the Divine Breath than from a simple excess of BioChromatic power.

4. No idea. Since Lifeless aren't properly sentient, extra Breaths may just sit in them like Vivienne's Breaths stuck to her shawl, not really interacting with the Lifeless, but just being deposited on its body for awhile.

5. Similar to that, but probably working from the other direction. Soulstamps change the Spiritual aspect within the bounds allowed by the Cognitive, while Returneds' ability to change their forms seems based on a Cognitive "how you see yourself," with maybe a bit of Spiritual "what should X look like?" thrown in.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Cheese Ninja]

As for point 3: There's a bit in the spoilers of the chapter 44 annotations.

Following the birth of an infant Returned from a Returned parent, it doesn't actually seem to require anything on the part of the parent. Note the last paragraphs:

The problem is, now they’ve got to push Siri to get pregnant, because they’re on a deadline. They don’t want to have to replace the God King with this infant; they’d rather use his own child. Hence the push for her to have a child.

But if she doesn’t, they’ll go with plan B. Note that there’s not, in fact, any danger to her either way, no matter what Bluefingers says. She and Susebron, following the change in power, would have been taken to one of the isles in the middle of the Inner Sea and kept in a lavish lifestyle as long as they lived.

It could be read either way, but it looks like Brandon is saying that even if Susebron and Siri have a child, they'd still get to retire to an tropical island. And if I remember correctly, the stories about the other God King's deaths sounded a bit fake, so I think they pretty much always retire out of public view like that, and the priests make up some story about how they sacrificed their lives.

On the other hand, from the first few paragraphs of the spoiler, it seems like something is required prior to the infant Returned being born from a Returned parent, possibly even before fertilization or conception. It is known to the priests, but not most Returned, Vasher and the other sages probably know how. We're also told we would find out in the sequel. Which kinda ties into my theory of Yesteel's Returned baby mill to gather Divine Breaths to Awaken swords like Nightblood. (It's cheaper than using thousands of normal breaths each time, you just need to raise them to be old enough that you can convince to give their Divine Breath away. Much more evil though.) Which is actually kind of an argument against #1, if you can force the births of Returned babies, there's no real limit to the amount of Returned in existence. I think that once you find a way to exploit a Cosmere magic system, there's very little the Shard can do to stop you outright. It's the opposite of how they can freely give their power to others. (Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy in HoA.)

Edited January 12, 2013 by Cheese Ninja

[Phantom Monstrosity]

4. No idea. Since Lifeless aren't properly sentient, extra Breaths may just sit in them like Vivienne's Breaths stuck to her shawl, not really interacting with the Lifeless, but just being deposited on its body for awhile.

They're a lot more aware than people give them credit for, though.

[Kurkistan]

They're a lot more aware than people give them credit for, though.

Yes, but only "90%".

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Yes, but only "90%".

Still, aware enough to be a viewpoint character is aware enough for me.

Lightsong Sees the Lifeless and Takes Command of Them

They keep them in the dark. This is a bad idea. They don't realize it, but the Lifeless are far more aware than everyone assumes. Clod in this book is a foreshadowing of that, and there won't be much more about it in the rest of the novel. It's one of the focus points for the sequel, if I ever write it. (Which will actually have a Lifeless as a viewpoint character, if I can find a way to swing it.)

[Kurkistan]

Still, aware enough to be a viewpoint character is aware enough for me.

But still not aware enough to consciously give up their Breath (can't find the link just now), so Lifeless are qualitatively different from humans and possibly interact with extraneous invested Breath differently.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Rlain]

It might also be important to not that, since Clod is Arsteel, his increased personality may have to do with Arsteel being a Returned. That sliver in him may be how Sanderson will make a viewpoint character out of a lifeless.

[name_here]

1. Yes. They're Splinters of a Shard, and Shards have finite power, because Preservation became less powerful than Ruin by expending a finite amount of power. That being said, Shards have a lot of power. The limit may be higher than the entire population of the Cosmere.

2. The Royal Locks are somehow tied up with inheritance law. It's not purely genetic or even spiritually genetic.

3. No. Vasher's massive emergency Breath reserve can be transferred in the normal fashion. What's difficult is them actually having children.

4. I'm not entirely sure you even can. Probably more-or-less the same thing that happens if you add more Breaths to a normal awakened object, whatever that is. Note that once upon a time people needed 50 breaths to Awaken a Lifeless before the Five Scholars figured out a better Command, so I expect it wouldn't be too dramatic.

5. Sort Of. It's the same principle, but their cognitive aspect isn't being edited. Basically, instead of becoming convinced they're something different and their physical aspect changing to match, their physical aspect changes to match how they think of themselves without their self-image being altered.

[ReaderAt2046]

As for point 3: There's a bit in the spoilers of the chapter 44 annotations.

Following the birth of an infant Returned from a Returned parent, it doesn't actually seem to require anything on the part of the parent. Note the last paragraphs: It could be read either way, but it looks like Brandon is saying that even if Susebron and Siri have a child, they'd still get to retire to an tropical island. And if I remember correctly, the stories about the other God King's deaths sounded a bit fake, so I think they pretty much always retire out of public view like that, and the priests make up some story about how they sacrificed their lives.

On the other hand, from the first few paragraphs of the spoiler, it seems like something is required prior to the infant Returned being born from a Returned parent, possibly even before fertilization or conception. It is known to the priests, but not most Returned, Vasher and the other sages probably know how. We're also told we would find out in the sequel. Which kinda ties into my theory of Yesteel's Returned baby mill to gather Divine Breaths to Awaken swords like Nightblood. (It's cheaper than using thousands of normal breaths each time, you just need to raise them to be old enough that you can convince to give their Divine Breath away. Much more evil though.) Which is actually kind of an argument against #1, if you can force the births of Returned babies, there's no real limit to the amount of Returned in existence. I think that once you find a way to exploit a Cosmere magic system, there's very little the Shard can do to stop you outright. It's the opposite of how they can freely give their power to others. (Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy in HoA.)

Possibly it requires some kind of special potion (possibly derived from Endowment's physical aspect, whatever that is) to make Returned fertile? They could easily slip whatever they wanted into Susebron's food.

[nightbug08]

I have a feeling that Seb's priests know whatever it is, but a good portion of them are dead now.  I'm sure they wrote it down, but they would also want to keep it as secret as possible.  Soo maybe it's encoded into something?  Or it could just be written down someplace, the priests were sneaky, but maybe not that sneaky.

 

Also I'm pondering the Royal Locks.  The fact that they can only, Only, ONLY, be passed by a Royal has some implications.  Whatever passes the Locks can read power, not just power really, but Kingship.  Is this a case of true Divine Kingship?  Or does it have something to do with the various pressures of belief on the royal family?  I mean it's been a few hundred years, more than enough for the trait to have been influenced by the people's belief in it.

Edited June 18, 2013 by nightbug08