Lord Of Nothing Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 Question first: Do we know what Gavilar's 'most important words a man can say' actually are? Musing: (Stop me if I'm babbling nonsense) Something has been bothering me about Dalinar's visions- specifically, his shardblade. If a shardblade can be stolen with hemalurgy, and hemalurgy affects the spiritweb, then that seems to me to imply that the ability to summon a shardblade is wholly based on the spiritweb. Which then raises a question: Why doesn't the shardblade come in his visions? Whichever way I try to explain it to myself, it doesn't sound right. If the spiritweb changes during the visions, that seems very odd. If the shardblade is somehow left behind, that seems very odd. And if the shardblade summoning is an aspect of a magic system that's present in the world, then it not working seems very odd as well. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) Question first: Do we know what Gavilar's 'most important words a man can say' actually are? Musing: (Stop me if I'm babbling nonsense) Something has been bothering me about Dalinar's visions- specifically, his shardblade. If a shardblade can be stolen with hemalurgy, and hemalurgy affects the spiritweb, then that seems to me to imply that the ability to summon a shardblade is wholly based on the spiritweb. Which then raises a question: Why doesn't the shardblade come in his visions? Whichever way I try to explain it to myself, it doesn't sound right. If the spiritweb changes during the visions, that seems very odd. If the shardblade is somehow left behind, that seems very odd. And if the shardblade summoning is an aspect of a magic system that's present in the world, then it not working seems very odd as well. ? The most important words is a literary reference to The Way of Kings (in world), the impelling document for the Knights Radiant (pg 227). We don't know what the actual words are, but I think people have been operating under the assumption that it has to do with the Ideals of the Knights Radiant, perhaps just the First Ideal "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." That's an excellent question about Shardblades. Perhaps Dalinar actually does summon his Shardblade, in the real world, but Adolin or someone else knocks it out of his hand as it forms (crazy man with Shardblade != Good)? Or Honor set the dreams up to disrupt the connection between the spiritweb of the dreamer and a Shardblade? Shardblades probably aren't wholly contained within the spiritweb's of their holders--instead, they probably rest in the Spiritual Realm as unique entities with a connection to their holder through that holder's spiritweb. Edited January 6, 2013 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little wilson she/her Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 In answer to the first question, I agree with Kurkistan. Something to do with the Ideals of the KR. As for the musing. This is going to take some explanation. First, I think the Blades are connected to both the Physical and the Spiritual Realms, especially in relation to the individual holding the Blade. The Shardblade is in the Spiritual Realm when not in the Physical one, connected to the individual's spiritweb. Like what Kurkistan says. But when Summoned, it transverses between the two, going from the person's Spiritual connection with the Spiritual Realm, to their Physical connection with the Physical Realm. Both Spiritual and Physical aspects of the person must be present for the Shardblade to be Summoned successfully. Most cases, this wouldn't matter, because when does a person's Spiritual and Physical self become separated? That doesn't happen. Except in the case of Dalinar. The Blade doesn't come to Dalinar in the vision because the person whose Physical he is connected with is not connected with his Shardblade. At the same time, the Shardblade wouldn't come to his Physical self, because his Spiritual self isn't there. It's elsewhere. I'm gonna take this one step further and say that if Dalinar was in a vision where he was a Knight Radiant, he wouldn't be able to Summon that Radiant's Blade, because his Spiritual self is not connected to the same Blade that the Physical one is. Does that make sense? And all this talk about the Physical and Spiritual in reference to the visions makes me wonder about something else along this same line. How much control does Dalinar have in these visions, over the people he is connected to Spiritually, yet controlling Physically? Is he changing history, or is history only being bent (meaning others react to his actions and words, but when the vision ends, things go bounce back and are redone without Dalinar's influence)? For example, did Heb really fight the Midnight Essence? Or did he, Taffa, and Seeli all die, like I'm sure would've happened if Dalinar hadn't been there to fight them off? Did Karm really give Nohadon the advice to write a book? If Heb and Karm both really did that, do they remember? Were their Spiritual selves riding alongside Dalinar's? Or would it be some black-out period where their Spiritual self left their body and then when it returns upon Dalinar's vacating of it, they find out what they did? On a side-note, I'm not sure which of those would be more weird. Heb watching himself kick Midnight Essence butt, yet not knowing how he's doing such things, or Heb finding out later that he was such a good fighter that a Knight Radiant invited him to Urithiru.... I would think that he wouldn't have control over history like that, even though he's able to control a past person's actions. And yet, maybe he did. I mean, everything he did was pretty trivial, that it wouldn't really matter if he actually changed anything. The only thing that would matter is if that advice is what made Nohadon write the Way of Kings later in life. But he probably didn't even remember that advice when he got around to writing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 I'll go with wilson's theory, but also offer up the possibility that the visions are entirely in Dalinar's mind, and like a bad dream where you can't make your legs move he finds himself unable to get out that stupid sword. An entirely different and rather cool option is that the visions are literally taking place in the spiritual realm, which could work depending on how you view it but probably doesn't. Ah heck now I'M blabbering. /post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I'm gonna take this one step further and say that if Dalinar was in a vision where he was a Knight Radiant, he wouldn't be able to Summon that Radiant's Blade, because his Spiritual self is not connected to the same Blade that the Physical one is. Unless he was inhabiting the Radiant who previously carried Oathbringer... what then? Your theory pre-supposes that Dalinar's spirit is inhabiting a physical historical person at the time of the events... (i.e that either one or other of the Physical / Spiritual connection to the blade are present) I think this is unlikely due to the very paradoxes that you state. On the other hand, if Dalinar enteres a pocket of the Spiritual realm during his vision then there can be no physical manifestation of his own shardblade by definition as only the Cognitive / Spiritual aspects are avaiable to him in the visions. And all this talk about the Physical and Spiritual in reference to the visions makes me wonder about something else along this same line. How much control does Dalinar have in these visions, over the people he is connected to Spiritually, yet controlling Physically? I think it is more like a guided dream or 'virtual reality simulation'. Based on real events but actions are only possible within certain constraints, in order to show the point of the vision. I would say that Dalinar's actions were either partly guided, or that the visions are in someway attuned to his likely actions. After all, it would be a poor message from Honour if Dalinar got 'killed' by the midnight essence just after the start of the vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Why doesn't the shardblade come in his visions? I've reread the "Starfalls"-Chapter (Chapter 19) because I think this would be the only one to be interesting. In his other Visions I don't see a need to be armed. If I remember right in (nearly) every situation when he summons his blade this is explicitly mentioned. One example: Ten Heartbeats.... The tenth heartbeat sounded in Dalinar's chest; he could always hear the beats when he was summoning his Blade, no matter how loud the world around him was. (TWoK, Chapter 26) IMHO Dalinar never just tried to summon his blade during this event (vision). Nothing in "Starfall" hints that Dalinar tried to summon his blade, not even he was thinking about that. He looked for a weapon and found an iron fire poker. And with this he fought. Yes, he thought about wishing his Plate, but not one word is said that he tried to summon his blade. Not even when he saw the Knights Radiant and when the female Shardbearer "turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand"; even now he joined the fight without trying to summon his blade but with his poker. What is confusing me is that Dalinar knows of his Shardplate. So I think he knows of his Shardblade to. Heb wouldn't have known about either. My idea is, that Dalinar's mind is "in Heb's body" (in this vision). Dalinar thinks (not Heb) and Dalinar acts (not Heb) but his action is constrained by the circumstances he was tossed in. This would (or could?) explain why he knew about the Plate, why he fought so well and why he felt the Thrill even in a state where he was "cut off" Plate and Blade. Can anyone follow my thoughts? I myself feel constrained by lacking experience with English and dict.cc is nice but doesn't give much help on phrases. edit: deletion because of falseness (or better not crossing out but really delete?) Edited January 8, 2013 by Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) ^Sorry, but you must have missed the relevant paragraph. In that very chapter (19), he tries and fails to summon his Shardblade. "Instinctively, he held his hand out to summon his Shardblade, but nothing happened. It would never come during his visions" (pg 296). P.S. Your English is fine. A few odd turns of phrase here and there, but perfectly readable. Edited January 7, 2013 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Thanks Kurkistan I feel so stupid. I really read this chapter a few times but missed this. And I have to admit that I focused on the fight in the house and later. I edited my posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Of Nothing Posted January 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Hmm. Interesting, thank you. That does all seem to make sense about the shardblade. Now to find something else to muse about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts