Duel to the Death: The Lord Ruler or Vasher?

[Turos]

Aye. That does it indeed. Nice finds, Voidus.

[kaellok]

TLR has atium, which is a pretty easy win... if he uses it.

[DreamEternal]

It is easy for him anyway, since he could just fly away and shoot at vasher from a distance.

[Charononus]

Toss in nightblood, "a gift for you my lord" pull nightblood out of the Lord rulers chest later.

[natc]

From early June to late October huh.

More recent than usual, but still.

Rashek can tell if you are lying pretty well, not sure if that would work.

[Yata]

Toss in nightblood, "a gift for you my lord" pull nightblood out of the Lord rulers chest later.

Probably Allomantic Copper is enough to stop Nightblood's Mind-Influence. And if There isn't i suppose that with Feruchemical Identity He will be Immune to Mental Influence.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Yata

[Voidus]

Toss in nightblood, "a gift for you my lord" pull nightblood out of the Lord rulers chest later.

He's kind of insanely invested, not sure that Nighthound would work on him. And even if it did he's functionally immortal unless you remove his metalminds, gold can even heal spiritual wounds so not sure he'd stay dead.

[Yata]

He's kind of insanely invested, not sure that Nighthound would work on him. And even if it did he's functionally immortal unless you remove his metalminds, gold can even heal spiritual wounds so not sure he'd stay dead.

I don't think that the "amount of Investiture" count about the "mind-control" in the Cosmere and if I remember right a lerasium-Mistborn are near at the level of a Sliver about "amount of Investiture".

Of course you have right about the Insane amount of Healing that Rashek may use.

[Voidus]

I don't think that the "amount of Investiture" count about the "mind-control" in the Cosmere and if I remember right a lerasium-Mistborn are near at the level of a Sliver about "amount of Investiture".

Of course you have right about the Insane amount of Healing that Rashek may use.

Sorry, not entirely sure what your first point is, and I think that quote about Lerasium Mistborn was just that they're 'closer' than regular Allomancers would be to being a Sliver, I don't think we can gain much else from it.

[Yata]

Sorry, not entirely sure what your first point is, and I think that quote about Lerasium Mistborn was just that they're 'closer' than regular Allomancers would be to being a Sliver, I don't think we can gain much else from it.

Sorry I mean :

If you are a guy with average level of Investiture or you are Susebron (that I suppose is the Most Invested Human saw in the Cosmere until now) don't change anything at all when it comes about Mind-Controll, Emotional Allomancy and similar abilities.

 

Or at least it's what seems to me.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Yata

[Voidus]

Sorry I mean :

If you are a guy with average level of Investiture or you are Susebron (that I suppose is the Most Invested Human saw in the Cosmere until now) don't change anything at all when it comes about Mind-Controll, Emotional Allomancy and similar abilities.

 

Or at least it's what seems to me.

Ah, gotcha, not sure that I agree, I mean we haven't seen anyone who has been immune to it yet but the prime candidates (Susebron, TLR, Herlads maybe) Haven't been tested on yet so it's hard to say for sure. That being said Malatium did work on TLR so maybe Nightblood would, though I still think that even if it did effect him he wouldn't die no matter how many times Nightblood made him stab himself.

[Yata]

To my own interpretation (that may be horrible wrong).

Emotional Allomancy and Cosmere-Mind-Control don't work exactly InvestitureVSInvestiture. It's something like Pushing/Pulling a Metal. Also if it's an Investiture-powered effect the real match is weightVSweight and I suppose that also in the Mind Controll/Emotional Allomancy is just an EgoVSEgo (or to be more precise IdentityVSIdentity).

Not sure if I made myself clear but it's complicated to explain my thought in English 

[Tarion]

I think Vasher has a few more strengths than people are crediting him with.

 

Firstly, he's Cosmere aware, and the Lord Ruler doesn't seem to be (Vin didn't become Cosmere aware when she Ascended.  It's only when Sazed took in both powers and traced their histories that he did).  That's a pretty big advantage.

 

Secondly, Vasher is a student of Investiture.  There's no formalised science of Investiture on Scadrial, and the lack of understanding will hold the Lord Ruler back.  Together, it means that the Lord Ruler sees a guy with a sword.  Vasher sees a Sliver with access to multiple forms of Investiture.  

 

With that in mind, the Lord Ruler is unlikely to take action until it's too late - Consider his 'fight' with Kelsier.  He was willing to let random Skaa stab him with spears, because he didn't feel threatened (and perhaps felt it important to show off his invincibility).  If he didn't notice Vasher, or consider him a threat, he'd be in a lot of trouble.

 

Which time period we pull Vasher from matters too.  If we're talking about him with Peacegiver's Treasure, or the even greater sum of Breaths that the God-Kings have by the time of Warbreaker (50,000 from the treasure, plus extra every week for 300 years), with his degree of control, he might well be capable of animating a lot.  

 

If Kredik Shaw eats the Lord Ruler before he even knows there's a fight happening, that's a problem for him.  In fact, of everything out there, Awakened cloth is probably one of the better options for disabling the Lord Ruler.  Between it's low metal content and it's Investiture, he wouldn't be able to push or pull it.  I doubt it'd stop him forever, but it's certainly a problem for him.  

 

The Lord Ruler wins provided he knows about Vasher and takes him seriously.  But by the time of Mistborn, he's arrogant.  He doesn't take any threat seriously other than Ruin.  Between that and his lack of Cosmere/Investiture awareness, I think Vasher has a decent chance.  

 

Or to put it another way, if Vin can do it as she is at the end of Mistborn, Vasher probably could to.  Even if he just steals her move and has Awakened cloth pull out his Atium bracers.  

Edited October 29, 2015 by Tarion

[Voidus]

I think Vasher has a few more strengths than people are crediting him with.

 

Firstly, he's Cosmere aware, and the Lord Ruler doesn't seem to be (Vin didn't become Cosmere aware when she Ascended.  It's only when Sazed took in both powers and traced their histories that he did).  That's a pretty big advantage.

 

Secondly, Vasher is a student of Investiture.  There's no formalised science of Investiture on Scadrial, and the lack of understanding will hold the Lord Ruler back.  Together, it means that the Lord Ruler sees a guy with a sword.  Vasher sees a Sliver with access to multiple forms of Investiture.  

 

With that in mind, the Lord Ruler is unlikely to take action until it's too late - Consider his 'fight' with Kelsier.  He was willing to let random Skaa stab him with spears, because he didn't feel threatened (and perhaps felt it important to show off his invincibility).  If he didn't notice Vasher, or consider him a threat, he'd be in a lot of trouble.

 

Which time period we pull Vasher from matters too.  If we're talking about him with Peacegiver's Treasure, or the even greater sum of Breaths that the God-Kings have by the time of Warbreaker (50,000 from the treasure, plus extra every week for 300 years), with his degree of control, he might well be capable of animating a lot.  

 

If Kredik Shaw eats the Lord Ruler before he even knows there's a fight happening, that's a problem for him.  In fact, of everything out there, Awakened cloth is probably one of the better options for disabling the Lord Ruler.  Between it's low metal content and it's Investiture, he wouldn't be able to push or pull it.  I doubt it'd stop him forever, but it's certainly a problem for him.  

 

The Lord Ruler wins provided he knows about Vasher and takes him seriously.  But by the time of Mistborn, he's arrogant.  He doesn't take any threat seriously other than Ruin.  Between that and his lack of Cosmere/Investiture awareness, I think Vasher has a decent chance.  

 

Or to put it another way, if Vin can do it as she is at the end of Mistborn, Vasher probably could to.  Even if he just steals her move and has Awakened cloth pull out his Atium bracers.  

Awakened anything doesn't have much of a chance, even without using Iron or steel he can compound strength and speed, the second that Vasher took any actions against him (Which he could just heal from anyway) he could tap enough speed to tear Vashers head off before the latter could do anything about it. He's basically immortal, other than getting rid of his metalminds (Which I doubt Vasher would know to do) I'm not sure it's even remotely possible to kill him. Pull Kredik Shaw on him and he can just turn into the hulk and throw it back at you. Even stabbing him repeatedly with Nightblood might not actually kill him.

[Charononus]

Awakened anything doesn't have much of a chance, even without using Iron or steel he can compound strength and speed, the second that Vasher took any actions against him (Which he could just heal from anyway) he could tap enough speed to tear Vashers head off before the latter could do anything about it. He's basically immortal, other than getting rid of his metalminds (Which I doubt Vasher would know to do) I'm not sure it's even remotely possible to kill him. Pull Kredik Shaw on him and he can just turn into the hulk and throw it back at you. Even stabbing him repeatedly with Nightblood might not actually kill him.

I disagree with this.  He heals via investiture.  Nightblood eats investiture.  Pretty sure a Nightblood wound will be fatal no matter who or what you are.

[Voidus]

I disagree with this.  He heals via investiture.  Nightblood eats investiture.  Pretty sure a Nightblood wound will be fatal no matter who or what you are.

If Nightblood stabbed the metalmind that might work, not if it just stabbed him, he uses the Investiture as quickly as he gets it, there's no moment for Nightblood to start tapping it. Plus even if it could he taps far more than Nightblood uses.

Plus if he has any Aluminium he might just be able to disintegrate Nightblood as soon as it enters him. Which would be very bad.

Or hell, as soon as Nightblood enters him he could burn it, not only destroying Nightblood but gaining god only knows what powers in the process.

Trying to go up against TLR is basically suicide, Vin got insanely lucky, had help from a Shard, was being set up to become a Shard and had a hell of a lot of information about TLR to puzzle out exactly how to defeat him.

[Thunder_93]

Definitelly for me, the Lord Ruler would win.

No doubt Vasher is strong, but TLR has just to many advantages.

Like many people said, his speed is incredible with steel.

Then with his Pushes and Pulls he could even effect the Metals inside of vin.

Pretty sure Vasher has some Metal inside of him as well (just from eating, and what the normal human being has).

TLR could just push on them, or push/pull at different locations at the same time and literally rip him into pieces from the distance. I mean he did that to Vin with a normal push, if he uses Duralumin he surely could do that.

And I remember Sanderson saying, with Nicrosil you could cause somebody to burn his metals outside his stomach.

So, with Duralmin, TLR could literally burn Nightblood when he gets stabed by it, like Voidus said. I'm sure this would cause some cool effects

 

And when everyone says, IF Vasher has this, and this, and this, then TLR should have everything as well, for example Bendalloy.

With his compounded physical and mental speed, he could just push on thousands of coins at the same time, while he's in a speedbubble, and release the bubble before the coins are at the border --> thousands of coins piercings vasher at the same time.

 

damnation, the Lord Ruler has just way to many options to give Vasher a real chance.

The only way Vasher could win is, as people said, that the Lord Ruler would underestimate him, and not fight in his full power.

But i assume, if we have an "arena-like-battle" both sides fight with all they have

[RenegadeShroom]

For the record, the Lord Ruler was aware of the Cosmere, he just didn't care about anything beyond Scadrial.

 

QUESTION

Did the Lord Ruler know how to worldhop?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He was familiar with the idea that people lived on other planets, but had no interest—or experience—in visiting other places. During his Ascension, he could have left Scadrial, if he'd wished.

 

 

[Tarion]

Awakened anything doesn't have much of a chance, even without using Iron or steel he can compound strength and speed, the second that Vasher took any actions against him (Which he could just heal from anyway) he could tap enough speed to tear Vashers head off before the latter could do anything about it. He's basically immortal, other than getting rid of his metalminds (Which I doubt Vasher would know to do) I'm not sure it's even remotely possible to kill him. Pull Kredik Shaw on him and he can just turn into the hulk and throw it back at you. Even stabbing him repeatedly with Nightblood might not actually kill him.

Except he didn't use his Feurchemy against Vin.  Or against Kelsier.  Or against the Skaa who stabbed him.  If he was using Feruchemical Zinc or Steel (Even without Compounding) Vin's method of killing him wouldn't work.  Even if he had them prepared and just wasn't using them, he would have been able to tap them in the time between his Atiumminds being stolen and him ageing, which would have given him near-infinite time to react.  He didn't.  

 

The Lord Ruler's supreme arrogance and a thousand years without a serious threat mean that he's just not prepared to fight something that's actually as threat to him.  And I suspect that he generally looks down on Feruchemy as less impressive than his Allomancy - For him it was just a tool, not a mystical power, whereas he still seems to find his Allomancy special.  

 

Using the 65,000-100,000 Breaths that Susebron has by the end of Warbreaker gives Vasher the potential to create up to a hundred Nightbloods.  Sticking those Breaths into Kredik Shaw, or something similar, would create something that I think could be a threat to the Lord Ruler.  

 

Also, more generally, I doubt The Lord Ruler could actually handle something that heavy - Allomantic pewter strengthens his bones, but Feruchemical pewter just adds muscle mass.  That'll give him a pretty hard cap, as he won't be able to lift anything heavy enough that his skeletal structure can't handle it.  His sheer Allomantic pewter strength is the important bit, rather than his ability to compound Feruchemical pewter.  

 

Finally, I suspect that Vasher, as a Returned, would be resistant to someone pushing on the metals inside him, but I'm not sure.  

[Thunder_93]

Pushing the Metal inside of him is in my opinion just one of many options. Maybe you're right, and he'd be imune to that, but still, just with his ferrochemical speed, like many said, he could kill him before Vasher could react.

 

But you're right tough.... If TLR would have fight with all he had, Vin would never have won.

But the Lord Ruler was just to arrogant, maybe the same would happen against Vasher. But in my opinion, you can't take the full power of Vasher, but not of TLR, because "he wouldn't use it anyways".

I think we have to asume, that both of them use all they've got. 

[Voidus]

 

Except he didn't use his Feurchemy against Vin.  Or against Kelsier.  Or against the Skaa who stabbed him.  If he was using Feruchemical Zinc or Steel (Even without Compounding) Vin's method of killing him wouldn't work.  Even if he had them prepared and just wasn't using them, he would have been able to tap them in the time between his Atiumminds being stolen and him ageing, which would have given him near-infinite time to react.  He didn't.  

 

The Lord Ruler's supreme arrogance and a thousand years without a serious threat mean that he's just not prepared to fight something that's actually as threat to him.  And I suspect that he generally looks down on Feruchemy as less impressive than his Allomancy - For him it was just a tool, not a mystical power, whereas he still seems to find his Allomancy special.  

 

Using the 65,000-100,000 Breaths that Susebron has by the end of Warbreaker gives Vasher the potential to create up to a hundred Nightbloods.  Sticking those Breaths into Kredik Shaw, or something similar, would create something that I think could be a threat to the Lord Ruler.  

 

Also, more generally, I doubt The Lord Ruler could actually handle something that heavy - Allomantic pewter strengthens his bones, but Feruchemical pewter just adds muscle mass.  That'll give him a pretty hard cap, as he won't be able to lift anything heavy enough that his skeletal structure can't handle it.  His sheer Allomantic pewter strength is the important bit, rather than his ability to compound Feruchemical pewter.  

 

Finally, I suspect that Vasher, as a Returned, would be resistant to someone pushing on the metals inside him, but I'm not sure.  

 

Because he doesn't need to, he had the upper hand on Vin the entire time to such a degree that she was barely worth noticing, and this is Vin, one of the strongest Mistborn to exist since the days of Lerasium. As for why he didn't use it once his bracers were removed, he was dead the second his Atiumminds were removed from his body, his body relapsed to its natural state, it doesn't matter how much you increase your speed if you're already 900 years dead.

Yes he's arrogant and probably wouldn't treat Vasher as a threat, though he would notice Nightblood pretty much straight away, but with good reason, Vasher really can't do anything to hurt him, he's immortal. Unless Vasher gets an incredibly lucky hunch that he really should remove those bracers then he's toast.

With either his Allomancy or feruchemy he could kill Vasher a thousand times before the latter could reach for Nightblood, with both he could kill Vasher along with an army of lifeless soldiers even if every one of them had Nightblood. Vin won through Shardic intervention and an insane amount of luck, without one at the least and preferably both Vasher just doesn't stand a chance.

[Tarion]

I think we have to asume, that both of them use all they've got. 

That's fair, and I did say in my original post that if the Lord Ruler gives it all he's got, he wins. 

I just think that, of the two of them, Vasher is most likely to actually give it all he's got.  The Lord Ruler just isn't.  He's a character who never gives it all he's got, in the entire book.  He just relies on his strong Allomancy and the fact that he doesn't think anything can actually kill him.  Throw in his inexperience in the Cosmere, and his minimal understanding of Investiture, and Vasher has a lot stronger chance than it looks when just comparing powersets. 

Because he doesn't need to, he had the upper hand on Vin the entire time to such a degree that she was barely worth noticing, and this is Vin, one of the strongest Mistborn to exist since the days of Lerasium. As for why he didn't use it once his bracers were removed, he was dead the second his Atiumminds were removed from his body, his body relapsed to its natural state, it doesn't matter how much you increase your speed if you're already 900 years dead.

 

That's not actually how it happened.  He had plenty of time - He went after his bracelets, and Vin had to push them away.  A Steelrunner or a Sparker should have been able to get them back no problem.  With Compounding, it shouldn't have been an issue at all.  

The bracelets ripped free. The Lord Ruler cried out in pain, a faint, distant sound to Vin’s ears. The weight suddenly released her, and she dropped to the floor, gasping, her vision swimming. The bloody bracelets hit the ground, released from her grip, skidding across the marble to land before her. She looked up, using tin to clear her vision.

The Lord Ruler stood where he had been before, his eyes widening with terror, his arms bloodied. He dropped Marsh to the ground, rushing toward her and the mangled bracelets. However, with her last bit of strength—pewter gone—Vin Pushed on the bracelets, shooting them past the Lord Ruler. He spun in horror, watching the bracelets fly out the broken wall-window.

In the distance, the sun broke the horizon. The bracelets dropped in front of its red light, sparkling for a moment before plunging down into the city.

“No!” the Lord Ruler screamed, stepping toward the window.

His muscles grew limp, deflating as Sazed’s had. He turned back toward Vin, angry, but his face was no longer that of a young man. He was middle-aged, his youthful features matured.

He stepped toward the window. His hair grayed, and wrinkles formed around his eyes like tiny webs.

 

 

[Voidus]

 

That's fair, and I did say in my original post that if the Lord Ruler gives it all he's got, he wins. 

I just think that, of the two of them, Vasher is most likely to actually give it all he's got.  The Lord Ruler just isn't.  He's a character who never gives it all he's got, in the entire book.  He just relies on his strong Allomancy and the fact that he doesn't think anything can actually kill him.  Throw in his inexperience in the Cosmere, and his minimal understanding of Investiture, and Vasher has a lot stronger chance than it looks when just comparing powersets. 

That's not actually how it happened.  He had plenty of time - He went after his bracelets, and Vin had to push them away.  A Steelrunner or a Sparker should have been able to get them back no problem.  With Compounding, it shouldn't have been an issue at all.  

 

It didn't kill him instantly but he was still dead as soon as he lost the bracers, he can't undo what's been done, he was already reverting to his natural state, however long it takes to completely revert it would take just as long for the tapping to take effect once again.

You'll notice he also didn't use Allomancy in that scene too, he's not avoiding feruchemy because he hates it or distrusts it (Indeed the power he's desperately trying to retrieve is feruchemical, it's where most of his more dramatic abilities come from) he's not using any powers because he was just murdered and he knows it, he's not thinking rationally.

[Thunder_93]

I think so he'd have the chance to get them back.

But what would you do, if you thought yourself for 1000 years immortal, and then something like this happens?

I guess he was to shocked, to surprised, to react. Or he didn't have a steelmind with him to go get it (which would be stupid, I'd always keep one with me, but like we all said, he's like the definition of arogant).

[Tarion]

It didn't kill him instantly but he was still dead as soon as he lost the bracers, he can't undo what's been done, he was already reverting to his natural state, however long it takes to completely revert it would take just as long for the tapping to take effect once again.

You'll notice he also didn't use Allomancy in that scene too, he's not avoiding feruchemy because he hates it or distrusts it (Indeed the power he's desperately trying to retrieve is feruchemical, it's where most of his more dramatic abilities come from) he's not using any powers because he was just murdered and he knows it, he's not thinking rationally.

I didn't say he hated or distrusted Feruchemy - He just seems less enamoured of it than of his Allomancy.  

 

And I disagree - He's clearly capable of stopping and starting his Atium tapping to some extent.  He spends some time aged, to store more in his Atiumminds, after all.  If he could have gotten his Atiumminds back, I think he would have been fine.