Question 10

[Voidus]

Thanks.

 

By the way, did you want to have Backtrack and MV talk at all while trying to track Impact?

Yes, I've been meaning to get an MV post up for a while now but I guess I've been busy building Wikias

I'll try to get something up soon.

 

 

Meaning there's still room for an Epic whose real name is Victor or Victoria McPhail.

Well most of my main characters have profiles, just need Cornucopia and my Astoria characters so I'll soon start adding my legions of unclaimed Epics to the mix, plenty of room for a Victor and Victoria McPhail if you want

[Kobold King he/him]

There's a Backtrack article up on the wiki now. I added a couple more sad details about his life, in case any of you want to hear more about his suffering.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Yes, I've been meaning to get an MV post up for a while now but I guess I've been busy building Wikias

I'll try to get something up soon.

Well most of my main characters have profiles, just need Cornucopia and my Astoria characters so I'll soon start adding my legions of unclaimed Epics to the mix, plenty of room for a Victor and Victoria McPhail if you want

We need some Epics whose names are actually a legitimate reason for adopting code names

[Kobold King he/him]

An idea for the wiki, can we introduce categories for player's characters? "Kobold King's Characters," "Voidus' Characters," "TwiLyghtSansSparkles' Characters," etc?

[Voidus]

Well The Adventurer's up, complete with a short version of his backstory.

[Voidus]

An idea for the wiki, can we introduce categories for player's characters? "Kobold King's Characters," "Voidus' Characters," "TwiLyghtSansSparkles' Characters," etc?

I'm happy to do that, I asked a while ago if we should have an option in the infoboxes for it, but I'm happy with both or either.

[Kobold King he/him]

Well The Adventurer's up, complete with a short version of his backstory.

 

That is tragic.

 

 

I'm happy to do that, I asked a while ago if we should have an option in the infoboxes for it, but I'm happy with both or either.

 

An infobox option would also be useful.

[Voidus]

Alright well there's now an optional infobox field so if it's not filled in it just won't show up but if people want to they can tag themselves in like Kobold just did with Deathwish.
I think the categories are probably a good idea as well for searching purposes.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Well The Adventurer's up, complete with a short version of his backstory.

Wow. That's super sad.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

....unlike Deathwish's backstory, which just makes him even more of a sleazeball.

[Kobold King he/him]

....unlike Deathwish's backstory, which just makes him even more of a sleazeball.

 

Mission accomplished.

[Voidus]

Haha, just started putting in my name in the new field, Kobolds already done it for all my Epics. Well played my friend, well played.

[Comatose he/him]

I want to like this but there are a couple of points that made me double take and then I started becoming really nitpicky. I'm just going to list everything but I'm aware that some of those points are minor.

 

That's all right!  I posted them to get feed back, and since they are nobility in the other setting, there are bound to be some issues changing them into Vanillas in the Reckonerverse.

 

Grouping this together because it boils down to the same argument. How is she not dead? It's not like Epics would just let a normal person act as if they are anywhere their equal, even less if they get funny ideas and use threaths, and no kind of contacts are going to help for the simple reason that any form of important contacts would also be Epics, so we are back to the same problem. Bribes also don't work as they are rather worthless with a group of people that can just kill her and take her money if they fell like it, withouth any ill effect whatsoever.

I was operating under the impression that there are epics of various power levels or offensive capabilities.  Many epics could kill them both without looking back, but there are some who could not.  For threats, I wasn't meaning physical threats, but mostly blackmail.  With Bribes as well, I was thinking more that they could bribe epics with information or favours.  

 

As for Daerra's attitude, I was referring here to her personality, not to her MO.  Keep in mind that she is an excellent actress, a key talent she uses to her advantage.  What I meant to say here is going up against an epic will not usually deter her from the pursuit of a goal.  Is she going to walk up to Rainmaker and start acting superior?  Absolutely not.  What Daerra would do is read the social situation (which likely means staying as far away from people like Rainmaker as possible), and then finding minor epics and Vanillas she can manipulate, and leverage to use against them.  

 

In general, I figured their targets would be weak to mid level epics who have resources that can be stolen.  I kind of conceptualized them as similar to the Reckoners, but less altruistic, more self centered.  They aren't fighting the system, they are working within it.  I wanted to write some Vanilla characters with some wealth and resources, who weren't starting from square one.

 

For example, how many people in The Dalles would pay them to steal from Reader?  Or to uncover secrets he is hiding?  Reader is an example of a very important epic who, as long as Daerra and Aaron did their job right and didn't get caught, would have a very difficult time retaliating.  Euphoria or some of the other (physically) weaker Queens would also be valid targets.  Keep in mind that they are working from the shadows, gathering information before they make their move.  It would be unlikely any of their targets ever meet them face to face, knowing who they are.  Bribes and threats to reveal information can also happen electronically, or through intermediaries, meaning Daerra would not need to risk threatening a physically dangerous epic to his or her face.  

 

That said, there isn't enough money in the world to pay them to go to a place like Astoria at this point, and they generally avoid the most powerful High Epics, since they'd be put in severe danger.  

 

Again how? And this is a more complex question that it looks like. This is still before the capitulation act, so if anything the fact that all Epics have a weakness wasn't common knowledge yet, there clearly wasn't enough known about them to work with any data. Plus, if he was still a relatively new Epic, he probably didn't know his weakness himself. Meaning she couldn't have noticed it from his behaviour. Using any kind of deductive reasoning here seems effectively impossible. The best she could have hoped for is accidentially stumbling across it and kill him right then and there, otherwise he would have killed her for knowing to much.

 

I was going off the fact that epics often kill their families during, or soon after their rending, in order to hide their weaknesses, which I thought was a pretty automatic thing.  In my head, Daerra figuring out the weakness was a more haphazard thing, not nearly as meticulous as her other plans.  As for how she and Aaron stayed alive, in my imagination it was mostly by playing her father and uncle against each other, and by making themselves useful in the struggle.  As for how the weakness was used, I tried to be deliberately vague here, so that I wouldn't get caught up on faulty details.  While Andrew was a new epic, his rending would have been over at this time, so I figured it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have an awareness of his weakness, but then again, we really don't know how that works.  

 

I'll keep playing around with this in my head, and try to make it a little more plausible though.  Likely making her defeat of her father more of a fluke will help.  

 

Two problems here. 1)They were fairly imporant people from what you described, so there's no way the police, which would still exsist at this point, would just have let them go without investigation and large amounts of money from a person they just killed. Given that the law apparently didn't adapt to Epics yet they might actually have gotten a murder charge with realistic chances of being convicted for this entire mess. Founds would certainly have been frozen for the time being.

2) Those assets would have been useless shortly afterwards, when the capitulation act hit and any form monetary system collapsed.

 

(1) In my mind, the battle between the brothers would have been fairly chaotic and far reaching, and since Andrew was a public figure, I thought the police would know he had become an epic, and Daerra and Aaron's actions would be treated as self defense, or they would have been lost in the shuffle, because the city had been destabilized by this conflict.  Again, I tried to be vague with the timing here, because I'm reallly bad at timelines and didn't want to contradict anything, but in my head the conflict, from the Rending (which Daerra and Aaron were not present for) to the death of Daerra's father, would have lasted about a year.  

 

I was also vague with how Daerra got the money, and how long it took to get it.  This was also intentional.  If you would like me to put thought into this, please let me know.

 

(2)  Would the assets have become worthless everywhere?  How do people pay for things like Epic Tech?  I know that many epic despots probably develop their own currency, but would that make old currency useless?  I also imagined Aaron and Daerra divesting their funds quite quickly, before their usefulness degraded to nearly nothing, using it to purchase supplies, equipment, information, and contacts, before the country totally devolved into chaos.  The plot purpose of the money, in my mind, was to give them a head start, and help to explain how they've done so well since the apocalypse, and have contacts at places like Knighthawk.  If the money bothers you, please let me know if you can think of a replacement that serves a similar plot purpose.  

 

Again a bit of repetition but the only possible cliente for them would have been rather powerful Epics and those wouldn't want Vanillas to get any illusions of power and probably kill them.

 

We do know that epics work with Vanillas some times, even powerful ones.  Steelheart had humans in his bureaucracy, and Nightwielder dealt with the human weapons merchant (a pretty important role).  Would they have to be careful not to go rubbing their 'importance' in epics faces?  Absolutely.  Daerra would be as good at playing the bowing and scraping game as anyone, and would make every effort to appear useful, but unimportant, when it suited her purposes.  

 

We know about eactly one organization that really researches weaknesses are the lorist and those are so heavy in hiding they don't even openly work with the Reckoners, so that doesn't bode well for this buisness practice.

 

I was picturing Daerra and Aaron to work a little differently from the lorists.  I pictured them more as free lancers than researchers.  Instead of compiling a huge data base of weaknesses, they research the weaknesses of their targets, and then sell them to the person who hired them to find those weaknesses.  I thought maybe they could even do some field work for the lorists on the side, since to me, it doesn't seem like the lorists get out much.  

 

Also, this was meant to be a side business.  Their primary specialty is stealing things.  I never meant for them to go around like the Reckoners defying the epics.  My intention was for them to be integrated into the scenery, and somewhat adapted to life in the Fractured States.  While I would like for them to be hired by epics from time to time, I did not intend for them to be working openly.  They are still VERY underground (similar to the Recknoners), moving from city to city, and primary contact would likely happen through intermediaries, and safe-guards would be put in place before any in person meeting (if one of those happens at all).  I didn't really want to get into the specifics of their business, but if you feel it is important I can.  

 

I assume those are more bulky than just gloves, otherwise they wouldn't even fit the motivator.

Epics also seem to frown about Motivator tec, looking at Regalia talking about them being made from their corpses and Steelheart one of the guys that could really afford it not equiping his forces with Epic tec, this again makes their only logical cliente more likely to kill them.

 

I might change it to some sort of harness or chest  brace.  Gloves looked cooler, but I was having some other issues with them in my head, so that can be easily adjusted.  

 

They don't widely advertise their use of epic technology either, so I was hoping they could avoid some of the stigma.  

 

Also, wasn't the Guass (sp?) gun epic tech?  I know Nightwielder didn't end up buying it, but didn't he seem to consider it?  Maybe I'm getting my facts wrong, it's been too long since I reread Steelheart.  

 

I'm not sure on that. I know I myself have pinpointed him as prime target for the Reckkoners, but it seems unlikely for Epics that, given Iconoclasts MO, probably just lost their domain and have taken extreme hits to their founding, assuming they still have any, to hire vanilas to find out anythig about him, if the only thing they know about his is that he can turn vanillas into his minions. Someone more public seems like he would make more sense.

That's true. Iconoclast was also a little high power for them. Is there someone well known a little lower on the food chain who would have enemies?

 

In general, it seems like this overall clarification needs to be made.  I never intended for these two to be walking around with Daerra acting like Queen of the world overthrowing High Epics left and right.  Their scope is less than that of the Reckoners at the beginning of Steelheart, especially considering they don't kill epics, they just steal items and information from them.

 

Anyways, if you have points you'd like to come back to, or anything to add let me know.  I'll keep turning some of these suggestions around in my head, and see about making some edits.  Thanks for the critique!

[Kobold King he/him]

Haha, just started putting in my name in the new field, Kobolds already done it for all my Epics. Well played my friend, well played.

 

 

Can we make the category "'s Characters" instead of "'s Epics"? A lot of us have both Epic and vanilla characters.

[Voidus]

 

Can we make the category "'s Characters" instead of "'s Epics"? A lot of us have both Epic and vanilla characters.

Good point, yeah I'll change mine now.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Once I get a few minutes to get a feel for the site, I'll add profiles for Nathan, Autumn, and Koschei. Unless King of the Overachievers Kobolds beats me to the punch.

[Kobold King he/him]

Once I get a few minutes to get a feel for the site, I'll add profiles for Nathan, Autumn, and Koschei. Unless King of the Overachievers Kobolds beats me to the punch.

 

I've already got Nathan's article image cropped for an infobox, so I'll upload it when you make the article.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I've already got Nathan's article image cropped for an infobox, so I'll upload it when you make the article.

I won't be able to make the article until late tonight, so you may as well start it and I can add more detail when I get home.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I should really get to work on this Wiki sometimes.

 

 
That's all right!  I posted them to get feed back, and since they are nobility in the other setting, there are bound to be some issues changing them into Vanillas in the Reckonerverse.

Alright, that's good then.

 

 

I was operating under the impression that there are epics of various power levels or offensive capabilities.  Many epics could kill them both without looking back, but there are some who could not.  For threats, I wasn't meaning physical threats, but mostly blackmail.  With Bribes as well, I was thinking more that they could bribe epics with information or favours.

The power level of the Epic doesn't seem to matter, they just can kill them and nobody cares. Could they kill some weakner Epics? Sure but then they have a murder on their hands and I doubt most Epics bother to run prisions.

 

 

In general, I figured their targets would be weak to mid level epics who have resources that can be stolen.  I kind of conceptualized them as similar to the Reckoners, but less altruistic, more self centered.  They aren't fighting the system, they are working within it.  I wanted to write some Vanilla characters with some wealth and resources, who weren't starting from square one.

Then why wouldn't a more powerful Epic just come along and claim those for himself? In case you're answer is that they are under protection by a higher Epic then stealing it would also risk angering said Epic.

 

 

I was going off the fact that epics often kill their families during, or soon after their rending, in order to hide their weaknesses, which I thought was a pretty automatic thing.  In my head, Daerra figuring out the weakness was a more haphazard thing, not nearly as meticulous as her other plans.  As for how she and Aaron stayed alive, in my imagination it was mostly by playing her father and uncle against each other, and by making themselves useful in the struggle.  As for how the weakness was used, I tried to be deliberately vague here, so that I wouldn't get caught up on faulty details.  While Andrew was a new epic, his rending would have been over at this time, so I figured it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have an awareness of his weakness, but then again, we really don't know how that works.

The books state that as a reason for Epics killing their family but nothing really indicates that they should know it any easier than anyone else.

Is it just me or are you working on contradicting logic here? First you say that family members are inherent threats for knowing each other weakness but then you both neglect that it would mean that both Epic brothers should know each other weakness, ending the fight rather quick, and have him keep his children which should be too gigantic danger to him for it to make sense that he would keep them around.

 

 

(1) In my mind, the battle between the brothers would have been fairly chaotic and far reaching, and since Andrew was a public figure, I thought the police would know he had become an epic, and Daerra and Aaron's actions would be treated as self defense, or they would have been lost in the shuffle, because the city had been destabilized by this conflict.  Again, I tried to be vague with the timing here, because I'm reallly bad at timelines and didn't want to contradict anything, but in my head the conflict, from the Rending (which Daerra and Aaron were not present for) to the death of Daerra's father, would have lasted about a year.

So the police knew he was a High Epic (I assume given that no one just shoot him) but didn't think about passing of his celebrety children at the airport for protection and information?

 

 

(2)  Would the assets have become worthless everywhere?  How do people pay for things like Epic Tech?  I know that many epic despots probably develop their own currency, but would that make old currency useless?  I also imagined Aaron and Daerra divesting their funds quite quickly, before their usefulness degraded to nearly nothing, using it to purchase supplies, equipment, information, and contacts, before the country totally devolved into chaos.  The plot purpose of the money, in my mind, was to give them a head start, and help to explain how they've done so well since the apocalypse, and have contacts at places like Knighthawk.  If the money bothers you, please let me know if you can think of a replacement that serves a similar plot purpose.

It depends a bit on what form the assests were in. If they were digital like bank accounts then yes, they would have become worthless as there's no way an intercity bank system would still function, even more so if he was openly going around killing people before the capitulation act, as they would most like would have frozen his accounts.

 

The only reliable currency we still know of is good old gold and in the right underground circles Epic corpses.

 

 

We do know that epics work with Vanillas some times, even powerful ones.  Steelheart had humans in his bureaucracy, and Nightwielder dealt with the human weapons merchant (a pretty important role).  Would they have to be careful not to go rubbing their 'importance' in epics faces?  Absolutely.  Daerra would be as good at playing the bowing and scraping game as anyone, and would make every effort to appear useful, but unimportant, when it suited her purposes.

There is one gigantic difference. Those examples don't actively defy Epics. And stealing from Epics is the same as defying them.

 

 

I was picturing Daerra and Aaron to work a little differently from the lorists.  I pictured them more as free lancers than researchers.  Instead of compiling a huge data base of weaknesses, they research the weaknesses of their targets, and then sell them to the person who hired them to find those weaknesses.  I thought maybe they could even do some field work for the lorists on the side, since to me, it doesn't seem like the lorists get out much.

I doubt that Epics care much about their classification systems. What's a problem is the information about their past and weakness, which is what "freelancers" would still come into contact with.

 

 

Also, wasn't the Guass (sp?) gun epic tech?  I know Nightwielder didn't end up buying it, but didn't he seem to consider it?  Maybe I'm getting my facts wrong, it's been too long since I reread Steelheart.

Looking back at it, I don't think it was, actually. They never mentioned a Motivator, the Spyrill didn't use much if any energy and Prof didn't mention it interfering with gifted powers like with the Spyrill.

 

 

That's true. Iconoclast was also a little high power for them. Is there someone well known a little lower on the food chain who would have enemies?

Well, my first instict for well known with enemies wanders to Nighthound but he isn't exactly low on the food chain either.

[Comatose he/him]

I should really get to work on this Wiki sometimes.

 

Alright, that's good then.

 

The power level of the Epic doesn't seem to matter, they just can kill them and nobody cares. Could they kill some weakner Epics? Sure but then they have a murder on their hands and I doubt most Epics bother to run prisions.

 

They don't kill epics though, they spy on them. and steal from them.  When I say bounty-hunting in the original application, I was meaning kidnapping rather than assassination.  The targets of that particular side business would almost always be Vanillas, or perhaps some very weak epics.  Some epics might want to kill them yes, but that's only a problem if they get caught, isn't it?  I'm kind of confused about what this criticism is.  We have Vanillas (Remington Springfield for example) who epics might want to kill, but who are still around.  David from the books is another example.   Again, I'm not saying Aaron and Daerra walk in fully armed and challenge epics face to face.  They work from the shadows, steal things and information, then leave.  How would epics retaliate if they don't know who to retaliate against?  The only ones who would have a chance to do this are ones who are kidnapped.  On that point, I take your criticism, and would be willing to edit that part out, since it isn't really necessary.  

 

What I think you are criticizing here is why epics still hire them, when they are defying the authority of other epics.  I thought their talent would be enough.  Let's say Curveball is angry because Fortuity stole his lucky gun.  He then hires someone like Daerra and Aaron to get it back for him, without leaving any traces, because they are good at what they do, even if they don't have powers.  He can't challenge Fortuity directly, do he acts indirectly (ignoring the fact that this is entirely out of character for Curveball).  Epics like to keep Vanillas in their place, but they also have disagreements with one another, and don't seem above using Vanillas against each other.  

 

Also, I don't see why two thieves would be attracting so much negative attention that they could not get work, when you have so many epics in the Dalles who are not only working with, but working under Vanilla leaders.  

 

Maybe I'm missing your point here, or there is some miscommunication, but I'm not really seeing the issue.  

 

Then why wouldn't a more powerful Epic just come along and claim those for himself? In case you're answer is that they are under protection by a higher Epic then stealing it would also risk angering said Epic.

Again, the challenge would be finding them.  They aren't working in the open or putting out advertisements.  The reason Daerra's contacts are important is because they work on a 'friend of a friend' basis, usually using intermediaries or electronic communication.   

 

The books state that as a reason for Epics killing their family but nothing really indicates that they should know it any easier than anyone else.

Is it just me or are you working on contradicting logic here? First you say that family members are inherent threats for knowing each other weakness but then you both neglect that it would mean that both Epic brothers should know each other weakness, ending the fight rather quick, and have him keep his children which should be too gigantic danger to him for it to make sense that he would keep them around.

 

I'm not saying family members automatically know of an epics weakness, but that they have the best chance of figuring it out.  I also see the contradiction.  Andrew would have been planning to kill his children once they were done being of use to him, but Daerra got to him first.  In the books, once an epic is done with their rending, they seem capable of calculation, and also of restraining themselves from killing threats (otherwise Prof or Regalia would have killed someone like Tia immediately).  Once his rending passed, and his children returned, Andrew realized he had an opportunity to use them against his brother, and so he put off killing them until they had served their purpose.  Using others instead of getting his own hands dirty is a core piece of his character.  

 

To sum things up, basically I see things going like this: Daerra was able to figure out her father's weakness because she knew him VERY well.  Andrew did not kill his children immediately because they were of use to him, and because he was in control of himself post-rending.  

 

So the police knew he was a High Epic (I assume given that no one just shoot him) but didn't think about passing of his celebrety children at the airport for protection and information?

 

I was deliberately vague about his powers, because I thought it would avoid technical problems like this.  I said he was powerful, but didn't specify whether or not he was physically powerful, or whether he had a prime invincibility.  Maybe one of his powers involved some form of mind manipulation, or maybe he had other means of avoiding assassination.  I don't think the fact that he avoided assassination necessarily means he was a high epic, even if the combined actions of him and his brother threw the city into a chaotic state.  I'm sure Euphoria's rending caused chaos, and she isn't a high epic.  

 

I wasn't really thinking the children would be celebrities.  Here in Canada, we don't really treat the children of our politicians as celebrities, and though Andrew was prominent, he wasn't Prime Minister or anything.  I'm from a small town in the middle of nowhere, and I know someone who could at one time have been considered a prominent provincial politician, and you'd never guess.  While they do have a famous mother, she retired from acting when they were born, so I kind of figured her fame would have faded, and wouldn't have accrued to the children.  Personally, I don't know much about the children of people who were celebrities fifteen years ago.  

 

I was also vague about how they escaped.  What you say about airport security might be correct, but maybe they didn't choose to fly.  When they first arrived back from Europe, I'm assuming the police did hold them for information.  Who knows, maybe they were held for information and then eventually released after Andrew's death as well.  Again, I didn't really want to work out every little logistical piece of their history, so I tried to be vague in places so that we could fill in that history as we went.  Would their escape have been easy?  Probably not.  Did the cities recovery from a battle between two epics probably help them a little, it probably did. 

 

It depends a bit on what form the assests were in. If they were digital like bank accounts then yes, they would have become worthless as there's no way an intercity bank system would still function, even more so if he was openly going around killing people before the capitulation act, as they would most like would have frozen his accounts.

 

The only reliable currency we still know of is good old gold and in the right underground circles Epic corpses.

 

Again, I wanted to be flexible.  Daerra would have kept up with currency, and transferred it into a useful form at the earliest convenience.  Remember, they took the funds before the Capitulation Act, and before things got too chaotic.  Since David and his father were visiting a bank the day Chicago was taken over, I'm assuming electronic banking systems were still functioning at that point.  After she had the money, Daerra could do what she wanted with it, perhaps buying gold, or other valuables, that she could use in place of money when the system collapsed.  

 

You present a good point with the freezing of accounts issue.  Here's a couple ways I can see getting around that difficulty.  (1) The twins had private funds set aside for them personally by their grandfather (who was the wealthy one), and only the funds Andrew could access were frozen.  (2) The wealth they took in was all taken from the family's estate, and not from a bank (maybe they had some money in a safe in case of something like this).   (3) The twins waited around Andrew's death until the assets became unfrozen, cooperating with the police all the way.  Maybe they rushed things a bit, out of recognition of what they went through, and because they had other epics to worry about.  (4) Maybe I could dial back the effect Andrew and his brother's war had on the city, making it more private and scope.  In this scenario, Daerra and Aaron could flee before Andrew's death is discovered.

 

I'm open to other options or solutions though, so feel free to suggest some.   

 

There is one gigantic difference. Those examples don't actively defy Epics. And stealing from Epics is the same as defying them.

 

I doubt that Epics care much about their classification systems. What's a problem is the information about their past and weakness, which is what "freelancers" would still come into contact with.

I'd say the Vanillas in The Dalles are defying epics.   I know that is not the best argument, especially because they are about to be destroyed, but Daerra and Aaron are a lot more mobile than a whole town.  What I am saying is if Vondra and Autumn can work with and over epics, surely there would be some epics who might want to hire Vanillas to use them against other epics.  

 

Your point about the sensitive information is a good one.  Maybe they keep this aspect of their business shrouded in more secrecy, or perhaps they use different aliases in those scenarios.  They aren't exactly coming into direct contact often, so physical reconition wouldn't necessarily be an issue.  How would potential employers know that freelancers X who steal things and freelancers Y who discover weaknesses are the same person?  

 

There is still the issue of epics hiring them specifically to discover the weaknesses of other epics.  Obviously, this would be a precarious situation for a Vanilla to be in.  I do think though, that if an epic had an enemy they wanted to get rid of, and they heard that some Vanillas had a talent for finding hidden information, that they would hire them, even with the risk that they might discover information about them.  Again, some epics likely would be so defensive and paranoid that they would kill them on the spot, but Daerra and Aaron wouldn't work with those epics.  Though their corruption affects them in similar ways, epics still have distinct personalities.  I kind of thought the finding weaknesses thing would develop naturally, since it seemed to me that that would be a common request epics would have to use against their enemies.  There's definitely danger involved, but my hope was that Daerra and Aaron would be competent and lucky enough to face that danger.  

 

Looking back at it, I don't think it was, actually. They never mentioned a Motivator, the Spyrill didn't use much if any energy and Prof didn't mention it interfering with gifted powers like with the Spyrill.

 

Fair enough.  I was intending for them to keep their use of epic tech hidden.  Some might wonder how they accomplish certain jobs, and become suspicious, but I hoped they could be subtle enough that the completion of seemingly impossible tasks could be chalked up to the twins just being really good at what they do.

 

Well, my first instict for well known with enemies wanders to Nighthound but he isn't exactly low on the food chain either.

Nighthound is also in Portland, which is now closed. I also thought it might be funny if Fortuity hired them to gather information on Funtimes, but ran into the same problem. Also, there is the fact that Funtimes is becoming progressively more terrifying, meaning if Daerra and Aaron got caught spying, their chances of survival could be slim.

Would The Dalles be a better place for them? Do any epics or vanillas there have items or information of value that would be worth stealing, and perhaps enemies who could be the twin's employers?

Edge, I think I addressed all your points, but let me know if I missed any!

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

The main problem I see with Daerra figuring out her father's weakness is that it seems to require connecting weaknesses to fears, which is something not even the lorists seem to have done in 10+ years of studying Epics (unless they did and they're hiding something, which is entirely possible). In some, or even many, cases, the Epics themselves seem to have not made the connection between fears and weaknesses. And, like Edge said before, no one even knew about the weaknesses in the early days. It seems more likely that Daerra just got lucky in setting off her father's weakness than that she figured it out, especially during a period where even the existence of weaknesses was debated at best.

[Comatose he/him]

The main problem I see with Daerra figuring out her father's weakness is that it seems to require connecting weaknesses to fears, which is something not even the lorists seem to have done in 10+ years of studying Epics (unless they did and they're hiding something, which is entirely possible). In some, or even many, cases, the Epics themselves seem to have not made the connection between fears and weaknesses. And, like Edge said before, no one even knew about the weaknesses in the early days. It seems more likely that Daerra just got lucky in setting off her father's weakness than that she figured it out, especially during a period where even the existence of weaknesses was debated at best.

 

I wasn't intending for her to figure out the weakness = fears thing, more just that, because she knew him well, she realized when he was reacting to certain things, and deduced something was at play that way.  

 

Since it was earlier though, and I don't think it's super essential to the character, I'll change it to something more haphazard so that its more plausible.  Thanks again for the feedback .

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I wasn't intending for her to figure out the weakness = fears thing, more just that, because she knew him well, she realized when he was reacting to certain things, and deduced something was at play that way.

Since it was earlier though, and I don't think it's super essential to the character, I'll change it to something more haphazard so that its more plausible. Thanks again for the feedback .

The deduction method could certainly work, but with a family member suddenly becoming a murderous psychopath, his behavior would have probably seemed erratic to her anyway, making deductions based on that much more shaky than usual. And it could work, but I think luck would be as much at play as reasoning.

Also, my phone autocorrected "suddenly becoming a murderous" to "suddenly alb evoking Murderlina." And now I'm wondering if my phone is part of a cult.

[Comatose he/him]

Is it just me, or should "Murderlina" be an epic name?  Perhaps one with a secondary power that allows her to communicate through auto-correct.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Before I start mind I point out that I don't exactly care if they make complete sense in canon? Just arguing for accuracy sake.

 

They don't kill epics though, they spy on them. and steal from them.  When I say bounty-hunting in the original application, I was meaning kidnapping rather than assassination.  The targets of that particular side business would almost always be Vanillas, or perhaps some very weak epics.  Some epics might want to kill them yes, but that's only a problem if they get caught, isn't it?  I'm kind of confused about what this criticism is.  We have Vanillas (Remington Springfield for example) who epics might want to kill, but who are still around.  David from the books is another example.   Again, I'm not saying Aaron and Daerra walk in fully armed and challenge epics face to face.  They work from the shadows, steal things and information, then leave.  How would epics retaliate if they don't know who to retaliate against?  The only ones who would have a chance to do this are ones who are kidnapped.  On that point, I take your criticism, and would be willing to edit that part out, since it isn't really necessary.

How much multi-city underground thiving organaizations do you think there are? If Epics get assassinated people are going to blame the Reckoners. This group would get a similar reputation but different from the Reckoners there actually has to be a way for them to be contactable, which means they are trackable. People like the Reckoners or Remington are not, either because they don't take jobs from the group of people that would want them dead or because he (Remington) is essentially a nobody outside of the Dalles. 

Plus, if they only take jobs from Epics like Curveball I really doubt the'll get the funds to build multiple safe houses in different cities and their recources while doing their research.

 

 

Also, I don't see why two thieves would be attracting so much negative attention that they could not get work, when you have so many epics in the Dalles who are not only working with, but working under Vanilla leaders.

Ha! You're argument is based around me acknowledging that the Dalles makes sense in canon, which I never did, I just don't get to make the call. Your argument is invalid as is every other comparission based on the Dalles.

 

 

Andrew did not kill his children immediately because[...]

Waiting a year if not longer isn't not immediately that's effectively never.

 

 

Again, the challenge would be finding them.  They aren't working in the open or putting out advertisements.  The reason Daerra's contacts are important is because they work on a 'friend of a friend' basis, usually using intermediaries or electronic communication. 

How do these contacts actually work without leaving a trail? Excuse the sarcasm but do they walk up to minor Epics like not!Curveball and ask them if they want something stolen? Do they inserate in the newspapers? How do they transfere the payment without banks? The end of civilasation makes stuff like this hard and don't take Newcago's infrastructure as the example. The cities we have are mostly cheating with Epics like Cornucopia and other infinite resources Epics, which given Newcago's unique standing pretty obviously don't exsist in canon or at least not in this quantity.

 

Can't comment on handwaves.